Optec Alnitak Flip-Flat Gen2 Flat Field and Dust Cover or DIY

[teoria_del_big_bang]

First off apologies if this is in wrong section as there is no section for accessories as far as I can see.

But I am quite fancying one of THESE. But at £600 they do not come cheap so I do have a couple of questions if anyone has one, used one or has a DIY substitute.

1) I see there is the ability to have the Altinak Flip-Flat Dust Cover in EKOS but does this include the flat field generator so you can close the dust cover then turn on the flat field and automatically take flats after taking all your images ? I am assuming a lot here in that if you are taking flats then EKOS will shut the cover and turn on the flat field itself and a script is not required. Similarly that if you specify darks it will shut the cover but not turn on the flat field (probably not good enough sealing for darks so would not use this option).

2) Is there any DIY projects that still could do the above via EKOS sequence ?

I do remember that @steppenwolf did make a brilliant one some years ago that was in Sky at Noght magazine but not sure how automated it was and whether it could be controled via EKOS.

Steve

 

[steppenwolf]

6 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I do remember that @steppenwolf did make a brilliant one some years ago that was in Sky at Noght magazine but not sure how automated it was and whether it could be controled via EKOS

Hi Steve, the one I built is controlled by a simple relay that is itself driven by a Velleman K8055 interface board. I use an ASCOM driver (LesveDome) via a VBScript to open and close the flap and turn on the flat panel. If EKOS can call external scripts then it would be possible for you to do the same.

[Stuart1971]

There is a version that Deep sky Dad makes, for half this price and works well with ekos, also you get the option of built on dew heater too….

The one in the link is for a red cat, but they do many other sizes…

https://shop.deepskydad.com/product/wo-redcat-flap-panel-fp1/

[teoria_del_big_bang]

1 hour ago, Stuart1971 said:

There is a version that Deep sky Dad makes, for half this price and works well with ekos, also you get the option of built on dew heater too….

The one in the link is for a red cat, but they do many other sizes…

https://shop.deepskydad.com/product/wo-redcat-flap-panel-fp1/

Thanks, I guess this is 3D printed, which is fine as thats how I would do a DIY one if I go that route.
One thing that worries me wit flat field panels is how bright they are, some of the 5V ones are not bright enough for use with ultra NB filters as the exposure time is massive.
 

Steve
 

[kirkster501]

I've looked into doing something in this area too guys.  I find taking flats with a flat panel on the Obs wall a right royal faff TBH and would like something on the scope like the astrodad thingy  Problem is I use FSQ and TEC and so would need TWO of these widgets.  Also how does your dew heater tape connect around the objective if these flat machines are in the way?

Never happy unless we are spending money are we?😂

[teoria_del_big_bang]

36 minutes ago, kirkster501 said:

I've looked into doing something in this area too guys.  I find taking flats with a flat panel on the Obs wall a right royal faff TBH and would like something on the scope like the astrodad thingy  Problem is I use FSQ and TEC and so would need TWO of these widgets.  Also how does your dew heater tape connect around the objective if these flat machines are in the way?

Never happy unless we are spending money are we?😂

If I went the DIY route I would have it clamped in some way to the losmandy clamp and not the scopes dewshield. 

And yes why do we seem to be compelled to keep spending more money ???

Steve

[Stuart1971]

2 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

I've looked into doing something in this area too guys.  I find taking flats with a flat panel on the Obs wall a right royal faff TBH and would like something on the scope like the astrodad thingy  Problem is I use FSQ and TEC and so would need TWO of these widgets.  Also how does your dew heater tape connect around the objective if these flat machines are in the way?

Never happy unless we are spending money are we?😂

These Deep Sky Dad versions come with a built in dew heater, it’s an option, you can have with or without…. 👍🏼

[Big Jim Slade]

I'll chip in as I have the Alnitak.

It's nice, does the job seamlessly. I use SGPro rather than EKOS - in that you just add it to the devices setup and everything is automatic. It opens for lights, and for flats it closes and turns on the panel at the level you've configured depending on the filter. You can't use it for darks as it doesn't seal the tube effectively. I tried running off some darks once astro dark ended and they were useless.

One thing I've seen reported is that because it doesn't fold all the way back it can reflect moonlight back into the scope in some cases. I've not seen that, but that will depend on conditions and target I guess.

The DSD one looks interesting. It flips out of the way completely, which is good. But it needs power, which the Alnitak doesn't, and it looks like they are 3d printing sized for different scopes so you'll have to hope they will do one that fits and the tolerances are ok. The Alnitak plastic tie isn't pretty but it is effective and I won't need a new one if upgrade to a FSQ.  

Not sure I see the point of the dew heater as it's at the wrong end of the dew shield? I would stick with a tape around the lens if I got one. That said if the DSD one had been around when I bought I would certainly have considered it.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

9 hours ago, Big Jim Slade said:

You can't use it for darks as it doesn't seal the tube effectively. I tried running off some darks once astro dark ended and they were useless.

I suspected that was the case but that is not an issue as its not every session you need darks and I would probably take them with scope in a dark garage with the proper cap in place anyway.

9 hours ago, Big Jim Slade said:

One thing I've seen reported is that because it doesn't fold all the way back it can reflect moonlight back into the scope in some cases. I've not seen that, but that will depend on conditions and target I guess.

Interesting, never thought of that issue but it is a possibility so I would take this into account if I go the DIY route. The DSD one does fold fully back so maybe better in that respect.

 

9 hours ago, Big Jim Slade said:

Ihe DSD one looks interesting. It flips out of the way completely, which is good. But it needs power, which the Alnitak doesn't, and it looks like they are 3d printing sized for different scopes so you'll have to hope they will do one that fits and the tolerances are ok. The Alnitak plastic tie isn't pretty but it is effective and I won't need a new one if upgrade to a FSQ.  

Not sure I see the point of the dew heater as it's at the wrong end of the dew shield? I would stick with a tape around the lens if I got one. That said if the DSD one had been around when I bought I would certainly have considered it.

One thing about the Alnitak I was worried was it running off 5V USB. One issue I have with light panels is that often they are not bright enough for the Ultra NB filters 3 to 4 Nm and you need very long exposures for them. What do you think about this ?

Also I must admit I had sort of assumed the heater was to stop the light panel misting up not a scope replacement band and reading the description again it does not really make that clear but if it is a heater band for the scope then yes it would be a long way from the optics so would still need a band in the normal place.
I will ask about the heater band.

Many thanks for some great info 🙂 

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

I have asked about the heater but no reply as yet, however I have looked again on the website and it does say heater band to keep dew off optics, so it may help to some extent but on scopes with long dew shields I think it is too far away from the optics to be fully effective so would end up also having a band just in front of the optics as I do now 🙂 

Steve

[Stuart1971]

44 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I have asked about the heater but no reply as yet, however I have looked again on the website and it does say heater band to keep dew off optics, so it may help to some extent but on scopes with long dew shields I think it is too far away from the optics to be fully effective so would end up also having a band just in front of the optics as I do now 🙂 

Steve

The dew band will work fine at the end of the dew shield, as it warms the air inside the dew shield it will stop optics from dewing over…it does not have to be directly around the outside of where the glass element actually sits to work well enough….👍🏼

[teoria_del_big_bang]

2 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

The dew band will work fine at the end of the dew shield, as it warms the air inside the dew shield it will stop optics from dewing over…it does not have to be directly around the outside of where the glass element actually sits to work well enough….👍🏼

I have tried mine at the very end, and I agree if it warms the air inside the dew shield it should keep dew off the optics but I did try mine there and found in not as effective as lower down further towards the optics (not necessarily around them).
Maybe if this grips the dew shield tight then it will warm it up more and work better.
I think if I get one I would pay the extra for the heater and give it a go. DSD are pretty good at what they do so I guess they have done some tests of their own anyway.

Steve

[Stuart1971]

3 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I have tried mine at the very end, and I agree if it warms the air inside the dew shield it should keep dew off the optics but I did try mine there and found in not as effective as lower down further towards the optics (not necessarily around them).
Maybe if this grips the dew shield tight then it will warm it up more and work better.
I think if I get one I would pay the extra for the heater and give it a go. DSD are pretty good at what they do so I guess they have done some tests of their own anyway.

Steve

I was quoted (Euro) €330 for one to fit an Tak FSQ85, but of course now there is VAT to pay here too….that was not included….

Edited July 29, 2021 by Stuart1971

[teoria_del_big_bang]

 

13 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

I was quoted (Euro) €330 for one to fit an Tak FSQ85, but of course now there is VAT to pay here too….that was not included….

Hmmm, yes, I had just geared myself up to get the DSD Flip-Flat Gen and also the rotator which looks real promising but if I factor in 20% VAT when it gets to UK then things starting to look not so cheap.
Also would I be liable for import tax, or is that just the VAT ? and would there be administration charges on top of this, there so often is ?

Oh my I do not know now.

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Right so after some searching :-

Cost of the rotator and flip-flat gen from DSD is 785 euros, which is a very reasonable £668

I would then get charged 20% VAT and 4% import tax (on not just the cost of the items but Postage & packing and any insurance as well) and £8 processing charge bringing the total to a little over £836.

So whilst I would rather not pay the extra £170 I guess if they do what they promise £836 is not bad for both these items.

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Well, I have placed an order for both the Flip-Flat and the rotator.
If they do the job then its still a good price at around 230 (£370 with heater) for the flip-flat and £475 (£488 including the hand controller) for the rotator.

They are on a 4 to 8 week delivery but will try to review them on SGL when I receive them and later when they have been in use a few times.

Steve

[Stuart1971]

27 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Well, I have placed an order for both the Flip-Flat and the rotator.
If they do the job then its still a good price at around 230 (£370 with heater) for the flip-flat and £475 (£488 including the hand controller) for the rotator.

They are on a 4 to 8 week delivery but will try to review them on SGL when I receive them and later when they have been in use a few times.

Steve

Great, let me know about the flip flat, as I am keen on one of those too….👍🏼

[teoria_del_big_bang]

4 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Great, let me know about the flip flat, as I am keen on one of those too….👍🏼

No problem, I have ordered it with the heater despite my skepticism it may be too far up the dew shield but am keen to try it, that may take a little longer to get any conclusion as I need to be brave enough to turn my usual band off on a cold humid night.

Steve

[Big Jim Slade]

On 29/07/2021 at 09:15, teoria_del_big_bang said:

One thing about the Alnitak I was worried was it running off 5V USB. One issue I have with light panels is that often they are not bright enough for the Ultra NB filters 3 to 4 Nm and you need very long exposures for them. What do you think about this ?

My 6nm HA needs 28.5 seconds according to SGPro. That's not full brightness on the panel. I think I ended up preferring longer exposures because they gave a better histogram and averaged out any filter settle at the start of the frame.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

3 minutes ago, Big Jim Slade said:

My 6nm HA needs 28.5 seconds according to SGPro. That's not full brightness on the panel. I think I ended up preferring longer exposures because they gave a better histogram and averaged out any filter settle at the start of the frame.

30 seconds not too bad, I think my OIII 4Nm is the longest exposure up to 2 mins on some light panels.

Lets see how this one from DSD performs 🙂 

Steve

[mrflib]

@teoria_del_big_bang

 

Steve I am necroing this thread because there a precious few reviews on the DSD flat flip thingy! I hope you don't mind.

I'm building a completely grab and go Askar 200ACL and I'm interested in the DSD Flat Panel with heater as it would save me a dew strip if it works, and act as a lens cover and flat panel - less stuff to pack and get out!

Penny for your thoughts on the dew heater aspect, the flat aspect and whether you believe it a tight enough fit for darks?

 

Cheers mate

[Stuart1971]

8 minutes ago, mrflib said:

@teoria_del_big_bang

 

Steve I am necroing this thread because there a precious few reviews on the DSD flat flip thingy! I hope you don't mind.

I'm building a completely grab and go Askar 200ACL and I'm interested in the DSD Flat Panel with heater as it would save me a dew strip if it works, and act as a lens cover and flat panel - less stuff to pack and get out!

Penny for your thoughts on the dew heater aspect, the flat aspect and whether you believe it a tight enough fit for darks?

 

Cheers mate

I know this was not aimed at me, but i have had and used a deep sky dad flats panel for 18 months on my scope. And it was superb for taking flats, the 4000 brightness settings made it a breeze to chose any exposure you wanted too, with any filter. BUT, it will not be tight enough for darks, and also when imaging on really cold nights, here in the UK I found that when it got frosted up it would not close fully, it only went about half way and stopped, I assume due to the frost on the servo casing…

I did not have one with the heater, but don’t really think a heat band around the very end of the dew shield is going to do that much, it might just  keep the optics clear, but it would not help in stopping any thermal expansion of contraction of the optics, so if by any chance your scope can suffer from pinched optics in the cold, it will not help at all.

But like I say I did not have the heated version, so they are just opinions and not from experience.. HTH

[teoria_del_big_bang]

No problem resurrecting the thread at all but I can't really add to Stuarts reply.

The flap will not close tight enough for darks and I would not even bother with the heater it cannot replace a proper dew band placed correctly, but great panels though and very  lightweight.

Steve

[Stuart1971]

27 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

No problem resurrecting the thread at all but I can't really add to Stuarts reply.

The flap will not close tight enough for darks and I would not even bother with the heater it cannot replace a proper dew band placed correctly, but great panels though and very  lightweight.

Steve

Sorry, I know the question was for you, but wanted to share my thoughts….👍🏻

[teoria_del_big_bang]

3 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Sorry, I know the question was for you, but wanted to share my thoughts….👍🏻

Am I bovvered ?

Ha Ha not a problem at all and we both gave the same response anyway 🙂 

Steve