Anyone want to help spec cheap astrophotography setup ?

[johnbmcg]

hi all

 

i have been viewing for a while now but think i would be more interested in photographing dso 

im really hoping to do this on a minimum budget so looking help so i dont make errors in purchasing or direction

i do have some equipment  some of which might be useable

- SW 130p on an az pronto mount/tripod

- unmodified Canon 500d with 18-55 kit lens and intervalometer

I know i need a new mount for starters that could accomodate AP either using 1) the DSLR with new lens or 2) the DSLR with new scope or 3) maybe a cmos camera with the 130p

which route woud you take and then suggestion of items needed for a budget rig

thanks

Edited July 26, 2021 by johnbmcg

[vlaiv]

What will your budget be?

That will really determine what you'll be able to put together.

[Astro Noodles]

Hi, if you want to 'dip your toe' into AP, you may want to consider starting with widefield imaging which can be done with your existing DSLR, a decent lens or two, and a tracking mount. You can develop your skills with these and invest in more expensive kit when funds become available or your skills outgrow your equipment.

The most important thing will be the mount.

Many people are using these as lightweight mounts.

Sky-Watcher AZ GTi WiFi Alt-Az Astronomy Mount | First Light Optics

With the addition of a wedge, and updated firmware, it can be used as an EQ mount.

These are popular

Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer 2i WiFi Pro Pack | First Light Optics

as are these

iOptron SkyGuider Pro Camera Mount Full Package | First Light Optics

With a sturdy mount these should be enough for up to about 4kg load.

There are also less expensive camera trackers with capacity of about 2-3kg

Edited July 26, 2021 by Astro Noodles

[johnbmcg]

hope to keep the budget at this stage to about £450 if possible

I was thinking of £350 on a used eq tracking mount and £100 on either a budget refractor or a used dslr lens 

I do love the idea of the az gti as it has goto but worried about me doing the eq conversion myself. I have seen some used with the converion sold for around £325 so could look out for one of these.

It should be ok with a DSLR and 300mm lens ? or dslr on a small refractor ?

[Astro Noodles]

I started off with a 200mm lens which I got off ebay for £30. Not a great lens, but it got me going. 😄 300mm should be fine.

I would say at this stage to spend your money on the mount and tripod. You should be able to get these for under £450. Also, don't forget that you will need a number of other items which aren't often mentioned.

A laptop computer or similar device with stacking and image processing software.

A dew heater and some means of powering it.

An intervalometer for the camera

A sturdy tripod

[vlaiv]

EQ conversion of AZGti is rather simple - just few steps to it really:

1. Get wedge - you can get one that is specifically made for this mount or you can use simple ball head if you have one

2. Get counter weight / counter weight shaft - again, there are ready made ones - or you can DIY one

3. Flash appropriate firmware - that might sound daunting - but it is really just downloading software and running it when mount is connected to network, not much to it really.

With £100 you really won't get much in terms of refractor. Maybe something like second hand ST80 or maybe Mercury 705. Both of them are achromats and will have plenty of chromatic aberration, but will produce images.

Starting with second hand lens might be better idea. Something in 100-150mm range F/4 or so could be very nice combination.

[johnbmcg]

Hi

I do have laptop and intervalometer but I understand there are always more things needed. ATM Im just thinking the big budget items first can always squeeze a bit for extras or get them as I go along.

I do like the idea of a startracker or better still the AZ Gti modded. I would be happy to work for now with the DSLR and a decent lens but looking through ebay there are a lot of lenses and knowing which one is best, which is good value, and if they are good consition is just a bit of a worry. I had thought of a 135mm lens to start with, but wondering if its OK to start with a lens like a  7-300mm or something like that. Also,  is an f4 ok, thought most recommended f2 or even less.

Thanks so far, this discussion is helping to focus my direction....I hope

 

 

 

[Astro Noodles]

2 minutes ago, johnbmcg said:

Hi

I do have laptop and intervalometer but I understand there are always more things needed. ATM Im just thinking the big budget items first can always squeeze a bit for extras or get them as I go along.

I do like the idea of a startracker or better still the AZ Gti modded. I would be happy to work for now with the DSLR and a decent lens but looking through ebay there are a lot of lenses and knowing which one is best, which is good value, and if they are good consition is just a bit of a worry. I had thought of a 135mm lens to start with, but wondering if its OK to start with a lens like a  7-300mm or something like that. Also,  is an f4 ok, thought most recommended f2 or even less.

Thanks so far, this discussion is helping to focus my direction....I hope

 

 

 

A prime focus lens will be better than a zoom lens. I would just get something cheap to start, that way if it turns out to be rubbish, then you haven't spent too much. 

This is what I started off with

Tamron 200mm f/3.5 Adaptall-2 Telephoto Lens - 900477 JAPAN | eBay

You would need to get the correct adaptor. I'm sure you could find all manner of similar things that will suit whatever budget you decide on and what focal length.

By the way, you will probably need one of these to mount your RDF.

Universal Camera DSLR Hot Shoe to Finder / Red Dot Shoe Adapter Telesscope 3D | eBay

 

 

[johnbmcg]

thanks for the links, im off to look

[johnbmcg]

Just an update.

Just bought a used AZ GTi with the EQ mod and upgraded tripod,  it should be a good base to start with I hope. Still undecided to go with a good prime lens for te DSLR or just to buy a cheap short tube telescope . I see Currys are selling the Meade Adventurer 80 at £99 would that be a good starter scope for DSO imaging. Asking a few questions on eBay about dslr lenses there so still might go that route if I feel right about the replies.

Thanks for te advice so far and keep it coming if you can.

[KP82]

2 hours ago, johnbmcg said:

Just an update.

Just bought a used AZ GTi with the EQ mod and upgraded tripod,  it should be a good base to start with I hope. Still undecided to go with a good prime lens for te DSLR or just to buy a cheap short tube telescope . I see Currys are selling the Meade Adventurer 80 at £99 would that be a good starter scope for DSO imaging. Asking a few questions on eBay about dslr lenses there so still might go that route if I feel right about the replies.

Thanks for te advice so far and keep it coming if you can.

Personally I'd recommend a 200 - 300mm prime lens over a ST80. The field is going to be a lot flatter and has much less CA with a decent prime lens than the ST80. Also the lens would just work straight out of the box with your camera whereas the ST80 would require additional adapters. The focuser on the ST80 might also not be able to cope with the weight of your DSLR.

[Richard Wesson]

3 hours ago, johnbmcg said:

Just an update.

Just bought a used AZ GTi with the EQ mod and upgraded tripod,  it should be a good base to start with I hope. Still undecided to go with a good prime lens for te DSLR or just to buy a cheap short tube telescope . I see Currys are selling the Meade Adventurer 80 at £99 would that be a good starter scope for DSO imaging. Asking a few questions on eBay about dslr lenses there so still might go that route if I feel right about the replies.

Thanks for te advice so far and keep it coming if you can.

A short focal length achromatic refractor like this will show significant chromatic abberation. I would also suggest not buying from a general consumer goods store such as Currys - go to a specilaist astronomical retailer such as First Light Optics, 365 Astronomy etc. 

[johnbmcg]

Good advice. I do have all the parts /adapters to fit a dslr to a telescope as I tried t already with my 130p unsuccesfully lol

Everything Ive bought so far has been from FLO or astrobuyandsell just seen a link to the Currys deal and as it was a scope mentioned in Astrobiscuits website as a good starter scope.

OK, anyway I have decided based on what has been said here and then running off to Google  that I will stick with the dslr and look for a lens. At a later date when I have know more and have saved up I may well look into a better short tube refractor, hear lots of good things about the Redcat.

Thank you for the advice on the lens I will be keeping an eye out on the second hand market, here hoping something turn up soon.

[vlaiv]

6 hours ago, johnbmcg said:

Just an update.

Just bought a used AZ GTi with the EQ mod and upgraded tripod,  it should be a good base to start with I hope. Still undecided to go with a good prime lens for te DSLR or just to buy a cheap short tube telescope . I see Currys are selling the Meade Adventurer 80 at £99 would that be a good starter scope for DSO imaging. Asking a few questions on eBay about dslr lenses there so still might go that route if I feel right about the replies.

Thanks for te advice so far and keep it coming if you can.

ST80 can produce some nice images. It is not ideal scope for imaging due to it being fast achromat lens, but it can produce nice images. Good lens will be better option for astrophotography, but it really depends if you want to have second grab n go scope for visual as well for astrophotography.

With a few tricks, you can make very nice images with ST80, for example - this image was created with ST102 - bigger brother of ST80 that has even more chromatic aberration:

This is achieved by stopping down the scope as you would the lens.

Lens can't be used wide open as they will produce chromatic aberration as well. Depending on type of the lens, you'll probably need to use it at F/4 to F/5.6. ST80 is F/5 scope and in order to get CA free images - you probably need to stop it down to F/8 or so?

Now the question is - how "close in" do you want to get to your targets? Do you want general wide field that is achievable with lens or you want to get closer in? Add to that part of using ST80 as visual scope - but also the fact that you need adapters and fact that ST80 focuser is really not the best piece of kit.

Alternative is certainly to save up a bit and go for ED doublet in 60-70mm range that will fit on AzGTI.

[Andrew_B]

There are a lot of good lenses out there for reasonable money, especially if you can take your time and shop second-hand. I've got a few Samyang lenses bought both new and used and I've been very impressed by their performance, even when shot wide open. The Samyang 85mm f1.8 is probably my favourite, being small and light, as well as optically very good and I've also had good results from their 12mm f2.0 which is widely used and highly regarded, especially for shooting astro-landscapes. Older lenses can be picked up for even better prices but not all of them are a good fit for astrophotography so check out reviews and places like astrobin to see how other people have got on - for example I've got a Nikon 135mm f2.8 which is superb for ordinary shooting, but unusable for astro because of its terrible violet bloating around stars.

I'd advise honing your technique with a camera and lens first before moving on to a telescope. Wide angle through to short telephoto lenses are going to be much more forgiving of tracking errors and polar misalignment and let you shoot longer unguided exposures while still keeping stars round. This kind of setup will let you develop your skills and get into more complex forms of photography such as narrowband imaging if you want to go down that route. There's enough to learn with just a camera, lens, and tracking mount without having the added complexity and smaller margins of error associated with imaging through a telescope.

One last thing that's a good investment is having your camera converted to full spectrum, or buying a secondhand model that's already been converted to make it better for astro. It's not something you need straight away, but it's worth considering if you get into the hobby because it makes a real difference to the camera's red sensitivity and is a game changer for imaging emission nebulae due to its greater sensitivity to deep red H-alpha light. To give you an example of cost, I picked up a 24MP Fuji mirrorless APS-C camera that had been full spectrum modified for just £180 off eBay so there are good deals out there if you shop around.

[vlaiv]

4 minutes ago, Andrew_B said:

The Samyang 85mm f1.8 is probably my favourite

I have Samyang 85mm F/1.4 and it is really good (actually cine version T1.5 without click stops for aperture). It does need to be stopped to F/2.8 in order to avoid chromatic blur.

Wide open it shows quite a bit CA. Here is crop from ASI178mmc and that lens on M31:

Bright stars do show blue and red halos.

It is fast however, from Bortle 8 with just an hour of imaging it can capture quite a bit of M31 (this is mono version of above image stretched to show all that has been captured):

[johnbmcg]

Thanks for the replies . It has confirmed that for now my feeling that I should use my DSLR and learn more before spending more on a telescope.. I know it would be easier to start with a shorter lens, but I really like the pictures I see at about 135mm to 200mm. Maybe I should start shorter, as I will probably end up with a few lenses,. Tamron lenses seem to be more in my price range than Samyang or Sigma or some of the other makes that I see mentioned as good for astrophotography. No one seems to mention Canon lenses other than the Nifty Fifty is this because the budget ones are not generally as good or suitable. I will probably be back on the forum asking about specific lenses if i see something for sale just to check if it is suitable for purpose.

[Nik271]

Canon lenses are quite good  esp their pro L lenses, but the fast primes are very expensive compared to the third party alternatives. One reason for their high price is that they have top quality  autofocus and/ or image stabilization  but this adds to the cost, and you need none of that for astrophotography.

A purely manual lense gives the best value for money.

[powerlord]

That's why I bought a 2nd hand 300mm F4L from Japan without IS. If you look on ebay UK you'll find lots of japanese sellers - the prices are very low compared to the UK, in my personal experience I've bought 3 lenses and never had duty/customs and they have arrived as described in 3-4 days.

My 300mm F4 cost be just over £300 delivered and is in excellent condition. I also for a 1.4x and a 2x canon extender. All as described in perfect condition - all for maybe 60% or so of 2nd hand price in UK.

My 300 gives lovely sharp stars, and even with the 2x extender giving me 600mm at F8

Worth a look.

stu

Edited July 27, 2021 by powerlord

[vlaiv]

1 hour ago, johnbmcg said:

Thanks for the replies . It has confirmed that for now my feeling that I should use my DSLR and learn more before spending more on a telescope.. I know it would be easier to start with a shorter lens, but I really like the pictures I see at about 135mm to 200mm. Maybe I should start shorter, as I will probably end up with a few lenses,. Tamron lenses seem to be more in my price range than Samyang or Sigma or some of the other makes that I see mentioned as good for astrophotography. No one seems to mention Canon lenses other than the Nifty Fifty is this because the budget ones are not generally as good or suitable. I will probably be back on the forum asking about specific lenses if i see something for sale just to check if it is suitable for purpose.

Here is an example with Canon IS STM 55-200 and Canon 750d, again one hour from Bortle 8 skies:

Crop around North American nebula and Deneb.

This lens is very sharp, but problem that I found with this combination is sensitivity. Lens is F/4.5 and with one hour of exposure I could not get enough data to get the color to show properly - that is why it is mostly desaturated in background signal as color noise is just too much.

 

[Andrew_B]

2 hours ago, vlaiv said:

I have Samyang 85mm F/1.4 and it is really good (actually cine version T1.5 without click stops for aperture). It does need to be stopped to F/2.8 in order to avoid chromatic blur.

Wide open it shows quite a bit CA. Here is crop from ASI178mmc and that lens on M31:

Bright stars do show blue and red halos.

It is fast however, from Bortle 8 with just an hour of imaging it can capture quite a bit of M31 (this is mono version of above image stretched to show all that has been captured):

Your pictures made me realise how few photos I've taken in colour with the 85mm. I think it controls CA pretty well wide open but I'll need to test it.

I've done more narrowband shooting since I got it and you can get away with imaging at f2.0 which is ideal for capturing nebulae with an Ha or O-III filter. This shot was just under 1h20' at f2.0 with a Baader 7nm Ha filter, and while there's fairly visible coma (or sagittal astigmatism) on the brightest stars, the lens has done a good job even to the corners of the image.

 

[Andrew_B]

2 hours ago, johnbmcg said:

Thanks for the replies . It has confirmed that for now my feeling that I should use my DSLR and learn more before spending more on a telescope.. I know it would be easier to start with a shorter lens, but I really like the pictures I see at about 135mm to 200mm. Maybe I should start shorter, as I will probably end up with a few lenses,. Tamron lenses seem to be more in my price range than Samyang or Sigma or some of the other makes that I see mentioned as good for astrophotography. No one seems to mention Canon lenses other than the Nifty Fifty is this because the budget ones are not generally as good or suitable. I will probably be back on the forum asking about specific lenses if i see something for sale just to check if it is suitable for purpose.

I think the reason you don't hear about Canon lenses as much is partly because their features aren't really needed for astro as Nik271 mentioned, and also because the bargain Canon lenses that are a bit older and can be picked up for a good price maybe don't compare so well to the likes of Samyang or Sigma who have the advantage of using the newest lens formulations. Some Canon lenses will have been updated fairly recently and should be very competitive for astrophotography but they'll have a price tag to match.

If you have a look on astrobin for shots taken with the Samyang 135mm f2.0 you'll see why it's such a popular lens for astro but that popularity also means that you won't see it on sale dirt cheap secondhand.

[powerlord]

Samyang 135mm - You  can pick em up brand new cheaper though if you keep your eyes open. I bought one this week, new in box for £350.

[Jim Beaumont]

I'm just getting started with this new hobby myself, and in talking to the local Observatory Society, they said if the end game is AP then just try a simple camera and tripod with a prime lense before spending bigger cash on a scope. Having a Canon 1000D from a few years back, they also recommended a prime lense 50mm f1.8 just to get used to taking lights, bias etc with the best chance to get decent photos in short shots (3-10 secs) and then learning the stacking post production process.

This way i will get a better feel for what i want to do and where i want to spend my money later.

The prime lense has arrived this morning, so here's for a clear sky tonight.

[AstroMuni]

On 26/07/2021 at 21:15, johnbmcg said:

I was thinking of £350 on a used eq tracking mount and £100 on either a budget refractor

You already have a 130 newt and that should give decent images. I have a similar newt (see my signature link) and you can see what is achievable.

In my opinion you should look to spend your money on a decent mount with atleast tracking. Use existing kit to complement it. Once you have used it for a while you can decide best way forward on new purchases.