Touptek/RisingCam IMX571 (and other sensor) cameras discussion

[gorann]

Found this informative thread on CN that may not have been mentioned here yet:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/747251-risingcam-touptekaltair-imx571-sharpcap-sensor-analysis/

[gorann]

Interestingly I see that TS alone now sells four cameras with the IMX571 colour sensor. Seems to be an explosion of IMX571 cameras. The Altair one is a ToupTec so apparently identical to the RisingCam but more costly that the ASI.....

Accidentally I noticed that TS include 25% VAT in the price. I thought German VAT was 19%, but maybe there are new EU rules saying they have to add my Swedish VAT that is 25%?

EDIT: I now found out that there are new EU rules from 1st July stating that the VAT should be payed to the buyers taxauthorities, so no reason to shop in EU countries with low VAT anymore.

Edited July 27, 2021 by gorann

[ONIKKINEN]

8 hours ago, gorann said:

Found this informative thread on CN that may not have been mentioned here yet:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/747251-risingcam-touptekaltair-imx571-sharpcap-sensor-analysis/

Great thread, lots of answered questions.

[nfotis]

On 27/07/2021 at 15:42, gorann said:

Interestingly I see that TS alone now sells four cameras with the IMX571 colour sensor. Seems to be an explosion of IMX571 cameras. The Altair one is a ToupTec so apparently identical to the RisingCam but more costly that the ASI.....

Accidentally I noticed that TS include 25% VAT in the price. I thought German VAT was 19%, but maybe there are new EU rules saying they have to add my Swedish VAT that is 25%?

EDIT: I now found out that there are new EU rules from 1st July stating that the VAT should be payed to the buyers taxauthorities, so no reason to shop in EU countries with low VAT anymore.

 

As you noticed, VAT now is calculated during the checkout from the online store (and according to the destination country), so you don't gain much by shopping in Germany anymore.

Maybe it's better to shop directly from the Chinese stores instead?

 

N.F.

 

[pete_l]

6 hours ago, nfotis said:

Maybe it's better to shop directly from the Chinese stores instead?

Aliexpress has been adding VAT (at least, for my orders in Spain) since July 1

[gorann]

2 minutes ago, pete_l said:

Aliexpress has been adding VAT (at least, for my orders in Spain) since July 1

Has that worked well with Spanish customs? I would worry that one may have to pay twice if the Chinese company has not done the paperwork correctly.

[Pompey Monkey]

My order has been placed. Looks like there is only one left for now:

This price includes UK VAT!

[BCN_Sean]

I've been quite interested in these cameras, probably not the 571 at the moment, but dithering towards the 183 more to it matching what optics I've got and with it being slightly wider more tolerant to the approximate DEC adjustments on the mount! Been keeping an eye in here, and gleaned some interesting info without having to ask the same question again in a few months.

On 29/07/2021 at 10:20, gorann said:

Has that worked well with Spanish customs? I would worry that one may have to pay twice if the Chinese company has not done the paperwork correctly.

I ordered something a week before last and it went straight through without any issue.

[whipdry]

Recently contacted RisingCam about imports into the UK, in reply they stated the price did not include VAT or any Import Duty payable... seems UK customers would also face currency conversion charges as payment is either in the Dollar or Euro!

If anyone on here living in the UK has recently had an actual experience of a purchase please post a reply... BTW they offer stating a lower price on the customs paperwork, not sure that's a good idea!

Peter

[Pompey Monkey]

18 minutes ago, whipdry said:

Recently contacted RisingCam about imports into the UK, in reply they stated the price did not include VAT or any Import Duty payable... seems UK customers would also face currency conversion charges as payment is either in the Dollar or Euro!

If anyone on here living in the UK has recently had an actual experience of a purchase please post a reply... BTW they offer stating a lower price on the customs paperwork, not sure that's a good idea!

Peter

Hmmm, I was under the impression that Aliexpress was bound to include the VAT on sales to the UK by government agreement.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/buy-from-china-aliexpress/

[Pompey Monkey]

Even if I do get stung for VAT, at least there is no import tariff

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/8525801900#import

[JamesF]

On 26/07/2021 at 16:47, wimvb said:

Automatic switching is a ZWO "feature". Altair Astros 26M (imx571) also has two modes which the user has to choose. (Have a look at the graphs). The camera driver must have a switch for this.

It does.  There's a control to turn it on and off in the SDK for all Touptek-based cameras.

James

[wimvb]

1 hour ago, JamesF said:

It does.  There's a control to turn it on and off in the SDK for all Touptek-based cameras.

James

Does that switch show in the capture software, or do you have to go to the driver (ascom?) to access it? I know that in INDI/Ekos such features are accessed through the INDI controll panel.

[ONIKKINEN]

12 hours ago, Pompey Monkey said:

My order has been placed. Looks like there is only one left for now:

This price includes UK VAT!

Seems oddly cheap for VAT included. If you change your location to somewhere else in aliexpress youll find that this price is without VAT.

VAT or not, still cheap. If your invoice doesnt specifically state a vat paid then its probably something that youll pay when it arrives in your country.

[david_taurus83]

I'm really tempted by a colour version of these. Just over £900 on Aliexpress but even that isn't a small outlay. I wouldn't fancy having to send one of these back to be fixed if anything goes wrong. Look at the recent FLO sale. A lot of the cameras were ones that were returned to ZWO for warranty repairs so it can go wrong. I suppose most of these cameras will perform great but you know how sods law works!

[JamesF]

2 hours ago, wimvb said:

Does that switch show in the capture software, or do you have to go to the driver (ascom?) to access it? I know that in INDI/Ekos such features are accessed through the INDI controll panel.

I honestly have no idea.  Depends on the application, I guess.  I'd imagine Touptek's own application (or their rebadged versions) have it, but I've not looked at theirs for years.

James

[ONIKKINEN]

The camera is here, a bit over 6 workdays until i got it in hand including customs. Pretty fast delivery all the way from china. Total cost for me ended up being 1380 euros including Finnish VAT of 24% and DHL shipping which was 40 euros extra. Im not a huge fan of DHL but i will gladly pay 40 euros if it means UPS doesn't throw my package off a cliff several times, and "try to deliver but the recipient wasn't home"

I ran a Sharpcap sensor analysis with HCG mode and "low noise" on. Even illumination with the camera attached to my newtonian covered by a t-shirt, 2 sheets of paper and a tracing tablet as a flat field panel. Looks about the same as others have reported with gain 100 (lowest value) as the best overall setting for imaging.

.

Sharpcap has limited functionality with the "direct show" toup tek drivers and full functionality with the ascom touptek drivers. N.I.N.A works just fine with both, although the settings are in different places.

The cooler appears to work pretty fast, cooling down to below 0 in a few minutes from room temperature. Although i noticed that it overdoes it at first and goes a bit below the target temperature. Give it a few minutes more and it appears to be stable at whatever it is set to. Changing the gain mode will cause the cooler to "search" for the temperature for a while again, although i don't know why you would want to change it mid session. NINA reports the temperature in increments of 0.2 and it is mostly stable, with the occasional jump to one way or the other.

The camera comes with a 30?(32?)mm T2-M48 2inch barrel adapter and a T2-1.25inch adapter which i will not be using. I will need some adapters to fit this to my coma corrector with 55mm backfocus. Also i will probably need an IR-cut filter since i bought the full spectrum AR glass model. Really didn't plan on it arriving anytime soon so i wont be imaging with it for some time.

[ONIKKINEN]

First light has come and gone!

Just a quick and dirty shot of M81-M82 with 80 minutes of 30s subs from bortle 6-7. Mostly the point for this was to see the colour response (particularly in M82 H-alpha) and what kind of other issues it may have. This was an ideal target for me since i already imaged this with a DSLR so i have at least some way to compare results. Looks like the starburst H-alpha from M82 is nicely red, starcolours are there and faint fuzzies start appearing at this low integration time. Even Holmberg IX is a somewhat detectable smudge below M81. Taken through a Baader UV/IR cut filter in the image train as the camera advertises sensitivity up to 1000nm which im not interested in.

The data is a joy to work with, absolutely no amp glow and generally just very noise-free. Bias frames have a median ADU of 768 (which is the offset) and 30s darkframes at -10 have 769.

The upper left corner of the image is a bit concerning to me with its oblong stars. I checked collimation after shooting (forgot) and it wasn't quite right. I did collimate before leaving but i must have banged it somewhere during transportation. Also could have problems with backspacing or sensor tilt. Hoping its not sensor tilt as the camera has no tilt-plate to control this. Also could be polar alignment drift because i did not guide in DEC, more nights out will tell what was the cause.

Edit: The mess in the top left corner is caused by my focuser sagging under the newly increased weight of the imaging train compared to a DSLR. Well maybe not so much the weight but the "lever" effect from having the weight be further away from the focuser than a DSLR that sits right on it.

Edited August 31, 2021 by ONIKKINEN
Addded reason for the mess in the top left corner

[CedricTheBrave]

Looks great,

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

First light has come and gone!

Just a quick and dirty shot of M81-M82 with 80 minutes of 30s subs from bortle 6-7. Mostly the point for this was to see the colour response (particularly in M82 H-alpha) and what kind of other issues it may have. This was an ideal target for me since i already imaged this with a DSLR so i have at least some way to compare results. Looks like the starburst H-alpha from M82 is nicely red, starcolours are there and faint fuzzies start appearing at this low integration time. Even Holmberg IX is a somewhat detectable smudge below M81. Taken through a Baader UV/IR cut filter in the image train as the camera advertises sensitivity up to 1000nm which im not interested in.

The data is a joy to work with, absolutely no amp glow and generally just very noise-free. Bias frames have a median ADU of 768 (which is the offset) and 30s darkframes at -10 have 769.

The upper left corner of the image is a bit concerning to me with its oblong stars. I checked collimation after shooting (forgot) and it wasn't quite right. I did collimate before leaving but i must have banged it somewhere during transportation. Also could have problems with backspacing or sensor tilt. Hoping its not sensor tilt as the camera has no tilt-plate to control this. Also could be polar alignment drift because i did not guide in DEC, more nights out will tell what was the cause.

Looks great! I got mine the other day and have started to play with setup for when a get a chance to use it properly.

[GalaxyGael]

On 24/07/2021 at 16:22, Adam J said:

Not really following your argument the starburst is generated by on chip electronics and can't be removed by anything done by the camera manufacturers. 

Indeed, the term amp glow has carried over from ccd where the read out was at the chip edge, but these various glows are electroluminescence from the chip material. Imx571 almost eliminates it. 

For what is worth, I have the explore scientific branded version of the asi1600 mc Pro, osc cooled to 40 below ambient. Just as good as the zwo, correct noise profile but different gain numbers for the identical gain range. So the gain 139 values often quoted are not relevant, as the ascom driver is different. Easy to work out though. But identical in performance. In fact it was better as the to design used a screw in desiccant, much easier to use than internal tablet replacement. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by GalaxyGael
typos

[ONIKKINEN]

On 30/08/2021 at 19:53, ONIKKINEN said:

Edit: The mess in the top left corner is caused by my focuser sagging under the newly increased weight of the imaging train compared to a DSLR. Well maybe not so much the weight but the "lever" effect from having the weight be further away from the focuser than a DSLR that sits right on it.

Actually, upon further investigation it looks like also a fair bit of sensor tilt. I took apart my focuser, tightened things down a bit, reoriented it to 90 degrees so that the stronger up-down axis is vertical in typical operation towards the zenith-ish and it helped a bit, but not entirely.

I will have to look for a tilt-plate to add somewhere in the imaging train to fix it, in the meanwhile i will have to cut a good 1/3 or so of the frame to hide the uneven field.

 

[nfotis]

It seems that the sensor is quite good. This camera looks a plain vanilla version compared to others (no tilt plate etc).

If you are getting these results without LP or NB filters, I wonder how well this camera will work using filters.

N.F.

 

 

[nfotis]

Another discussion popped up about these cameras on CN (I think it would be a good idea to use this thread as a clearinghouse about these)

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/786752-risingcam-imx-571-and-nina/#entry11329758

 

N.F.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by nfotis

[ONIKKINEN]

On 02/09/2021 at 23:04, nfotis said:

It seems that the sensor is quite good. This camera looks a plain vanilla version compared to others (no tilt plate etc).

If you are getting these results without LP or NB filters, I wonder how well this camera will work using filters.

N.F.

 

 

The sensor behaves as expected from the IMX571 so: very good.

I don't think using light pollution filters in galaxies is a good idea, as galaxies are very bright in light pollution blocking spectrums. Quite honestly i have had no trouble with light pollution, its almost like its not there. Just colour balance and its gone, the 16bit ADC and high colour sensitivity will retain the data through some pretty nasty LP.

[nfotis]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

The sensor behaves as expected from the IMX571 so: very good.

I don't think using light pollution filters in galaxies is a good idea, as galaxies are very bright in light pollution blocking spectrums. Quite honestly i have had no trouble with light pollution, its almost like its not there. Just colour balance and its gone, the 16bit ADC and high colour sensitivity will retain the data through some pretty nasty LP.

 

I am a newbie in DSO imaging (I know only planetary imaging - a bit), but I suppose that in Bortle 8-9 areas like Athens some kind of filtering is required?

It seems that every manufacturer offers its own gain/mode/whatever parameters (and every program has its own idea about acceptable parameter ranges, judging by the NINA thread and native vs ASCOM drivers). This can lead to a real mix-up, if we don't keep carefully notes of parameters etc.

N.F.