Touptek/RisingCam IMX571 (and other sensor) cameras discussion

[nfotis]

Hello everyone,

 

I thought that these lower cost alternatives may deserve their own thread.

For starters, here is the IMX571 colour version:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001359313736.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6f047164JGhOx6&algo_pvid=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944&algo_exp_id=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944-0

For anyone not knowing this manufacturer, it seems that they are building/rebadging their cameras for Altair, Omegon, Touptek. RisingCam is the Aliexpress brand.

Here's also their monochrome version of the IMX571 sensor:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002673884516.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.72da375ci42NEM&algo_pvid=f85c57b9-b87b-4073-bdf1-45846acbece1&algo_exp_id=f85c57b9-b87b-4073-bdf1-45846acbece1-3

 

They have three tiers of cameras: non-cooled, cooled (simple air cooling) and TE two-stage cooling (some sensors exist in more than one category, so be careful of what you get).

 

I have now a technical question:

I have a nice collection of Canon EF lenses I would like to use with this sensor. Trouble is, RisingCam has a fixed backfocus of 17.5mm from the M42 mount to the sensor (same in the monochrome version).

How could someone fit the Astromechanics adapter, a filter wheel and the 17.5mm backfocus of the camera into the 44mm required for Canon lenses? A typical filter wheel is 20mm, add the 17.5mm of the camera and there's only 6.5mm available for the adapter (which is 17mm in the M42 version *oops* ).

The M42 version of the adapter is offered with a 9.5mm spacer, which can accept a 36mm filter. But I don't know if it's possible to find a filter wheel at such a thickness? A suitable filter drawer maybe? The ASI6200 version is "just" 11mm thick, that would leave 15.5mm for a filter wheel?

A link to the adapter in its various versions:

https://astromechanics.org/ascom.html

 

N.F.

 

[ONIKKINEN]

I just placed an order for the colour version of RisingCam IMX571, expected delivery in about 3 weeks.

Too cheap to pass on, less than half the price of a ZWO IMX571 version. The sensor is the exact same one so i cant really see how the important bits could be all that different, i guess we'll find out!

[nfotis]

I remember reading somewhere that there are various batches of sensors for "industrial use" or "regular use", but I don't know the specific models used by the various manufacturers.

It's my guess that there are other differences: better quality or cheaper materials during the camera/cooling system construction, less polished firmware, different exposure modes, etc. Hard to make an informed comparison without having the funds for even one camera, though.

N.F.

[newbie alert]

People need to realise that noise is created by the camera itself rather than the sensor... so the way the camera is constructed around the sensor plays a massive part in its performace

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, newbie alert said:

People need to realise that noise is created by the camera itself rather than the sensor... so the way the camera is constructed around the sensor plays a massive part in its performace

Im sure it cant be worse than my 11 year old DSLR that is mostly noise.

 

Is there a learning source for this noise thing and cameras in general? I just assumed that the sensor creates the image and the associated noise with it. Sure there could be amp glow from internal electronics but the descriptions of the product specifically mention some anti amp glow design.

[newbie alert]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Im sure it cant be worse than my 11 year old DSLR that is mostly noise.

 

Is there a learning source for this noise thing and cameras in general? I just assumed that the sensor creates the image and the associated noise with it. Sure there could be amp glow from internal electronics but the descriptions of the product specifically mention some anti amp glow design.

The misconception is people associate the starburst as ampglow..with cmos it has many amplifiers ( one on every row) so the starburst comes from the circuitry not the amplifiers 

Different manufacturers use the same chip  but use their own circuits etc ... more to a camera's performance than just the chip

Edited July 24, 2021 by newbie alert
Added info

[tooth_dr]

31 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

The misconception is people associate the starburst as ampglow..with cmos it has many amplifiers ( one on every row) so the starburst comes from the circuitry not the amplifiers 

Different manufacturers use the same chip  but use their own circuits etc ... more to a camera's performance than just the chip

Agree. I had a couple of KAF8300 based cameras from different manufacturers and they were very much different. I in fact I also had two KAF8300 based cameras from Atik and even they had different noise profiles. 

[newbie alert]

1 minute ago, tooth_dr said:

Agree. I had a couple of KAF8300 based cameras from different manufacturers and they were very much different. I in fact I also had two KAF8300 based cameras from Atik and even they had different noise profiles. 

Very true Adam 

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, newbie alert said:

The misconception is people associate the starburst as ampglow..with cmos it has many amplifiers ( one on every row) so the starburst comes from the circuitry not the amplifiers 

Different manufacturers use the same chip  but use their own circuits etc ... more to a camera's performance than just the chip

I am very interested in seeing how much of a difference these things make, ill make sure to run some tests once i get my hands on the thing. This will be my first cooled camera so i have nothing to compare it to, but there are a boatload of other IMX571 sensor cameras in use so it shouldn't be that difficult to make some comparisons.

What is this "starburst" you mentioned, i was not able to find much information on this?

[newbie alert]

[Adam J]

On 24/07/2021 at 13:02, newbie alert said:

The misconception is people associate the starburst as ampglow..with cmos it has many amplifiers ( one on every row) so the starburst comes from the circuitry not the amplifiers 

Different manufacturers use the same chip  but use their own circuits etc ... more to a camera's performance than just the chip

Not really following your argument the starburst is generated by on chip electronics and can't be removed by anything done by the camera manufacturers. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Adam J

[wimvb]

I’m following this discussion with interest. My concern with a non branded or rebranded camera would be compatibility with software. And yes, things like amp glow and noise are camera dependent. If I remember correctly, only a few years ago, both ZWO and QHY were struggling with amp glow. ZWO got their cmos cameras out first, but with amp glow. QHY lagged, but when they came out with theirs, they were marketed as amp glow free. Same sensors. I believe that part of the amp glow reduction that QHY applied was inactivating certain circuits on the sensor during exposure, as well as having a memory buffer. ZWO added a buffer later on, in their ”pro” models.

[newbie alert]

6 hours ago, Adam J said:

Not really following your argument that starburst is generated by on chip electronics and can't be removed by anything done by the camera manufacturers. 

Who's saying that??

[nfotis]

9 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

I am very interested in seeing how much of a difference these things make, ill make sure to run some tests once i get my hands on the thing. This will be my first cooled camera so i have nothing to compare it to, but there are a boatload of other IMX571 sensor cameras in use so it shouldn't be that difficult to make some comparisons.

What is this "starburst" you mentioned, i was not able to find much information on this?

 

I think that he meant "amp glow".

Before the IMX533/IMX571/IMX455 family of sensors, nearly all CMOS cameras suffered from the glow presented in the example above (that's inherent on the sensor, due to the heat from the amplifier circuits, if my memory serves me correctly). This happens on long exposures of dark targets, and can calibrated out by suitable dark frames, if my terminology is correct (that's one more preparation stage and post-processing).

This latest generation of Sony sensors promises no amp glow present, so things become much easier for astrophotographers, from what I can discern.

 

N.F.

 

[nfotis]

4 hours ago, wimvb said:

I’m following this discussion with interest. My concern with a non branded or rebranded camera would be compatibility with software. And yes, things like amp glow and noise are camera dependent. If I remember correctly, only a few years ago, both ZWO and QHY were struggling with amp glow. ZWO got their cmos cameras out first, but with amp glow. QHY lagged, but when they came out with theirs, they were marketed as amp glow free. Same sensors. I believe that part of the amp glow reduction that QHY applied was inactivating certain circuits on the sensor during exposure, as well as having a memory buffer. ZWO added a buffer later on, in their ”pro” models.

 

Obviously, software compatibility is important. As far as I know, there's a Touptek native driver and application, and most popular capture software supports these cameras via ASCOM as well.

A thread about the monochrome IMX571 Touptek/RisingCam camera:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/773197-touptek-mono-imx571-risingcam/

 

The colour IMX571 version is discussed here:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/739387-risingcam-imx571-camera/

 

First impressions from the Lacerta version:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/780769-lacerta-touptek-dspro2600m-first-light/

 

N.F.

 

[ONIKKINEN]

6 minutes ago, nfotis said:

 

Obviously, software compatibility is important. As far as I know, there's a Touptek native driver and application, and most popular capture software supports these cameras via ASCOM as well.

A thread about the monochrome IMX571 Touptek/RisingCam camera:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/773197-touptek-mono-imx571-risingcam/

 

The colour IMX571 version is discussed here:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/739387-risingcam-imx571-camera/

 

First impressions from the Lacerta version:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/780769-lacerta-touptek-dspro2600m-first-light/

 

N.F.

 

I am using N.I.N.A for all my deepsky acquisition and from the looks of it there is at least some compatibility with RisingCam models in the "nightly builds" versions of the software: https://nighttime-imaging.eu/downloads/Setup/Nightlies/1.11.0.1114/index.html

It looks like RisingCam drivers were recently added, fingers crossed that everything works out.

[gorann]

The Rising Cam is 1530 USD at AliExpress (your link) and the ASI2600MC is 1799 USD (https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/product/asi2600mc-pro-color or https://optcorp.com/collections/zwo-sales) so the price difference is not that great in my mind. A major advantage with the ASI camera is the dramatic drop in read noise at gain 100 (where the HCG high gain mode is turned on), so I always use gain 100 on mine. The Rising Cam does not have that feature apparently. It will be interesting to see your experience with the Rising Cam.

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, gorann said:

The Rising Cam is 1530 USD at AliExpress (your link) and the ASI2600MC is 1799 USD (https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/product/asi2600mc-pro-color or https://optcorp.com/collections/zwo-sales) so the price difference is not that great in my mind. A major advantage with the ASI camera is the dramatic drop in read noise at gain 100 (where the HCG high gain mode is turned on), so I always use gain 100 on mine. The Rising Cam does not have that feature apparently. It will be interesting to see your experience with the Rising Cam.

I bought it for 1224 USD, its on sale right now. Not sure where you got your numbers. Looks like most camera manufacturers are running a sale now but imo the price difference is still significant.

I find the RisingCam graphs impossible to read, especially considering that gain starts at 100. The graphs look similar if you remove the ZWO parts before gain 100 though. Sharpcap sensor analysis will tell me what is the best gain im sure.

[wimvb]

4 hours ago, gorann said:

The Rising Cam does not have that feature apparently. It will be interesting to see your experience with the Rising Cam.

According to the caption of the graph it has, but apparently it is always turned on. I'm a bit sceptic about the numbers in the graph. The FW is less than ZWO's value in LCG mode, but still there's a dynamic range of 14 stops, due to an incredibly low read noise of less than 1 (e? ADU?)

[gorann]

4 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

I bought it for 1224 USD, its on sale right now. Not sure where you got your numbers. Looks like most camera manufacturers are running a sale now but imo the price difference is still significant.

I find the RisingCam graphs impossible to read, especially considering that gain starts at 100. The graphs look similar if you remove the ZWO parts before gain 100 though. Sharpcap sensor analysis will tell me what is the best gain im sure.

I got the price from the original post with the link to AliExpress.

[ONIKKINEN]

13 minutes ago, gorann said:

I got the price from the original post with the link to AliExpress.

Changing my location to Sweden changes the price to include VAT, where as any other country leaves the VAT out of the price? Weird. So yes 1530 USD with VAT, whereas the ZWO 1800 USD does not include VAT. With taxes added to both there is still a 700-ish USD difference.

I expect customs to hold the package until taxes and fees are paid since i was not billed VAT at checkout.

[nfotis]

Well, I just checked and the system of AliExpress shows 1078 EUR for the colour version (not including VAT and postage, I think that these are added during checkout per EU instructions)

Does the ZWO price include VAT/postage?

The monochrome version of the RisingCam imx571 is showing at 1670 EUR or so. I haven't ordered any of these yet.

 

N.F.

Edit: the equivalent ZWO models on AliExpress show in 1780 and 2200 EUR, respectively.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by nfotis

[gorann]

16 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Changing my location to Sweden changes the price to include VAT, where as any other country leaves the VAT out of the price? Weird. So yes 1530 USD with VAT, whereas the ZWO 1800 USD does not include VAT. With taxes added to both there is still a 700-ish USD difference.

I expect customs to hold the package until taxes and fees are paid since i was not billed VAT at checkout.

Yes, that explains the confusion. Very odd why it differs between countries since it is not AliExpress that adds the tax, that is done by the courier when it arrives in Sweden.

[gorann]

18 hours ago, wimvb said:

According to the caption of the graph it has, but apparently it is always turned on. I'm a bit sceptic about the numbers in the graph. The FW is less than ZWO's value in LCG mode, but still there's a dynamic range of 14 stops, due to an incredibly low read noise of less than 1 (e? ADU?)

There is also another graph for it in LCH mode (on the AliExpress site) so apparently it does not switch automatically at gain 100 as in the ASI camera. I assue that gives more flexibility. It will be interesting to hear about the first experiences with this camera - good that someone volunters to have a try!

Edited July 26, 2021 by gorann

[wimvb]

3 hours ago, gorann said:

apparently it does not switch automatically at gain 100 as in the ASI camera

Automatic switching is a ZWO "feature". Altair Astros 26M (imx571) also has two modes which the user has to choose. (Have a look at the graphs). The camera driver must have a switch for this. 

https://www.altairastro.com/altair-hypercam-26m-aps-c-mono-camera-16bit-7974-p.asp