Astromodded DSLR or astro camera

[StuartT]

I have a DSLR that I have been starting out with, but I want all that nice red stuff so am thinking about buying a modded DSLR for astrophotography (as I don't want to mess up my regular camera). But then I thought, why not just buy an actual astro camera (CCD or CMOS).

Advice please.... modded DSLR (only used for astro) or actual astro camera?

Thanks 

[PeterCPC]

Depends on budget.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

As Peter says depends on your budget.

Also I guess what you want to image. I am sort of guessing DSO's.
The thing with modified DSLR's is that you get a lot for your money, bigger chip.

But , for me at least ,changing to a dedicated mono camera changed my imaging no end, but it wasn't without considerable cost.

I guess you have 3 main choices:

1. Modified DSLR - cost £200 to £600 depending on camera type and age of camera. You may well get one under £200 if bought 2nd hand already modified.
2. Dedicated OSC - cost £600 to £2000 (obviously can be much more but assume you are not going all out)
3. Dedicated Mono  + FW and Filters - cost £1000 to £3000 (same caveat as above)

The costs are very rounded figures, especially for mono and will vary depending on 2nd hand or new and what camera you get. Also it really depends on the makes of filters you get, and generally with filters you get what you pay so the mono route cost can vary hugely.
But, also the dedicated mono route is the most versatile and in areas of bad LP or when moon is near full then NB filters can be a huge advantage.

There are NB filter options for colour cameras too but not so versatile as the mono option.

So if like most of us you are limited by your budget I would say what that budget is and then see what that will buy you for each option.

Steve

Edited May 3, 2021 by teoria_del_big_bang

[StuartT]

Ok, I think being practical I am still very much starting out so it might not be wise to spend a lot up front until I know a) I can actually master the technology and b) it sticks with me and is not a passing fad

So I think I'll look for a modded camera in the first instance. I guess a decent quality APS-C would do the job (a three digit EOS)

Thanks very much for your advice. 

[PeterCPC]

There is a couple in the For Sale section.

[KP82]

I went for astro-modded DSLR when I started out 2 years ago. I had an old 600D lying around which probably wouldn't fetch much if I tried to sell it on ebay, so I decided to send it to astronomiser for the mod. The 18MP APS-C sized chip is very versatile for a wide range of focal length.

However if I didn't already have the 600D, I'd probably opt for a 294MC pro (or 2600MC pro if I start out now). The QE and noise advantage are quite substantial especially for someone like myself who usually go for shorter integrations (6 or less hours) due to time limits. The lack of time is also why I wouldn't bother with mono.

Edited May 3, 2021 by KP82

[The Lazy Astronomer]

Another thing to bear in mind (for deep sky work) is dedicated astro cams have set point cooling to help reduce noise. 

My opinion: if you can't (yet!) justify the expense of an astro cam, just stick to your current DSLR a little while longer. If you then realise your interest is long term, you'll know an investment in a dedicated camera is worth it. 

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have had a lot of fun with my modded Canon 550D, which came up for a very good price second-hand. It is certainly a good investment as a starting camera for DSOs. This was one of my first longer efforts on M42, from Bortle 5 skies with just a CLS-CCD filter:

With L-eXtreme filters, I captured the Rosette Nebula (both with an APM 80mm F/6 triplet and 0.8x reducer)

I now also have a cooled mono camera (also second-hand), which is definitely more sensitive, but will not ditch the DSLR any time soon.

 

[callisto]

You can always send your camera off to get modded....cheapastronomy do it for £73 (I think) which includes return postage

[rnobleeddy]

You can easily find 2nd hand modded DSLRs for <£200 if you have some patience. Depending on your scope, the large sensor size is also a massive advantage. I personally found that with dithering + long enough integration times, the results were good.

 

I upgraded from a DSLR to a cooled mono camera + FW and whilst the results are improved, the biggest advantage (IMHO) is reduced integration time and the flexibility to shoot either LRGB or narrowband. I personally prefer the Hubble palette style color images, which are very hard to create with DSLR even if you use the dual band filters.

[StuartT]

1 hour ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

I have had a lot of fun with my modded Canon 550D, which came up for a very good price second-hand. It is certainly a good investment as a starting camera for DSOs. This was one of my first longer efforts on M42, from Bortle 5 skies with just a CLS-CCD filter:

With L-eXtreme filters, I captured the Rosette Nebula (both with an APM 80mm F/6 triplet and 0.8x reducer)

I now also have a cooled mono camera (also second-hand), which is definitely more sensitive, but will not ditch the DSLR any time soon.

 

wow!

[StuartT]

1 hour ago, callisto said:

You can always send your camera off to get modded....cheapastronomy do it for £73 (I think) which includes return postage

yes, I know my existing camera can be modded, but I want to keep that for daytime photography and the filter removals can cause problems with that, I gather

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Just now, StuartT said:

wow!

I should have added the M42 image was 7 h 11.5 m 30 s total exposure, the Rosette is a total of 12 h 21 min, both taken over several nights

[StuartT]

sorry, supplementary question.. most people seem to shoot video and stack the frames (rather than shot individual RAW files like I've been doing so far). So is it possible to do that with a DSLR also? i.e. use canon's native video format in something like Deep Sky Stacker?

 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

2 minutes ago, StuartT said:

sorry, supplementary question.. most people seem to shoot video and stack the frames (rather than shot individual RAW files like I've been doing so far). So is it possible to do that with a DSLR also? i.e. use canon's native video format in something like Deep Sky Stacker?

 

For DSO images I have always used stacked still frames, even on DSLR.

Stacking video is more for planetary and lunar imaging I think,

Steve

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Just now, teoria_del_big_bang said:

For DSO images I have always used stacked still frames, even on DSLR.

Stacking video is more for planetary and lunar imaging I think,

Steve

Correct, I shoot RAW subs, and stack those in APP for DSOs and comets. For planets, moon and sun I shoot video (with planetary cameras), and stack with AS!

[ollypenrice]

I like the suggestion to stick with what you've got in order to see if you can master the hardware and software. The most important thing is to get on top of guiding. If you can do that, and get 5 minute subs with untrailed stars in focus, then you'll be in a position to know if any further investment is going to be worth it. If it is, I would skip the modded DSLR route as a red herring now that proper astro CMOS cameras are so much less expensive than the CCDs which went before them. Your present camera may not catch much Ha but that doesn't matter for the purpose of testing the rest of the system.

There has always been a widespread conviction that you should start with a DSLR and progress to an astro camera. I've never been persuaded by this view.

Olly

[rnobleeddy]

1 hour ago, StuartT said:

sorry, supplementary question.. most people seem to shoot video and stack the frames (rather than shot individual RAW files like I've been doing so far). So is it possible to do that with a DSLR also? i.e. use canon's native video format in something like Deep Sky Stacker?

 

As other have said, this is more for planetary/lunar - however, some of the recent Canons (and presumably other brands) have decent video options, so whilst perhaps not as good as a dedicated planetary cam, are passable.

[The Lazy Astronomer]

1 hour ago, StuartT said:

sorry, supplementary question.. most people seem to shoot video and stack the frames (rather than shot individual RAW files like I've been doing so far). So is it possible to do that with a DSLR also? i.e. use canon's native video format in something like Deep Sky Stacker?

 

Still frames for DSOs, video for planets and moon.

I'm not sure on this, but I believe due to the way DSLRs handle shooting video, it will only record at a reduced resolution.

Planetary cameras are much cheaper than deep sky ones, and can be had for a couple of hundred new. 

[Chris]

Modded DLSR's have a lot of sensor real estate for not much money, probably 8-10x cheaper than a cooled CMOS with the same size sensor. I guess that coupled with familiar controls makes them a good place to start. However, if you're happy to spend more, a dedicated astro cam will give you cleaner images/better signal to noise. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Chris

[KP82]

22 hours ago, rnobleeddy said:

As other have said, this is more for planetary/lunar - however, some of the recent Canons (and presumably other brands) have decent video options, so whilst perhaps not as good as a dedicated planetary cam, are passable.

Actually the video mode in the new Canons (presumably also applies to the other brands) is a disaster for planetary/lunar imaging. The resolution re-sampling algorithm (from native sensor to one of the standards like FHD and 4k) and video compression destroy most of the details. You want 1:1 video and for that only 550D and 60D are capable. Some other Canons can do a 5x liveview streaming that will mimic the 1:1 video (or getting close to).

Edited May 4, 2021 by KP82

[rockinrome]

On 03/05/2021 at 08:15, StuartT said:

I have a DSLR that I have been starting out with, but I want all that nice red stuff so am thinking about buying a modded DSLR for astrophotography (as I don't want to mess up my regular camera). But then I thought, why not just buy an actual astro camera (CCD or CMOS).

Advice please.... modded DSLR (only used for astro) or actual astro camera?

Thanks 

My ten-penneth is .....

A OSC like the Altair Hypercam is worth a look. Approx. £500 new. It's like the thinking mans alternative to the DSLR.

All the best

[rnobleeddy]

5 hours ago, KP82 said:

Actually the video mode in the new Canons (presumably also applies to the other brands) is a disaster for planetary/lunar imaging. The resolution re-sampling algorithm (from native sensor to one of the standards like FHD and 4k) and video compression destroy most of the details. You want 1:1 video and for that only 550D and 60D are capable. Some other Canons can do a 5x liveview streaming that will mimic the 1:1 video (or getting close to).

Aha, makes sense - I've used a 550 and it seemed to work ok. Does magic lantern help at all?

 

Edit - as far as I understand, https://magiclantern.fm/ enables a 1:1 crop mode for many canon cameras, and that is what I was referring to as the passible video mode. It's been a while since I did this, as  so my memory is probably faulty 😰

Edited May 4, 2021 by rnobleeddy

[KP82]

1 hour ago, rnobleeddy said:

Aha, makes sense - I've used a 550 and it seemed to work ok. Does magic lantern help at all?

 

Edit - as far as I understand, https://magiclantern.fm/ enables a 1:1 crop mode for many canon cameras, and that is what I was referring to as the passible video mode. It's been a while since I did this, as  so my memory is probably faulty 😰

Not sure if magic lantern can be used together with imaging software like APT and BYEOS.

[StuartT]

5 hours ago, rockinrome said:

My ten-penneth is .....

A OSC like the Altair Hypercam is worth a look. Approx. £500 new. It's like the thinking mans alternative to the DSLR.

All the best

this looks very interesting! It sure talks the talk. Anyone else have experience of this camera?

good review here https://astrobackyard.com/altair-hypercam-183c-review/

Edited May 4, 2021 by StuartT