How long to get first decent image ?

[Astro Noodles]

I have been attempting DSO astrophotography for a couple of months now but haven't yet produced an image I would be prepared to share on this forum. I understand that this is a difficult and complicated thing to do and there is an enormous amount to learn, and I don't yet really have the equipment or skills.

I was just wondering how long it took you before you had produced an image you were satisfied with and prepared to share?

[scotty38]

I've been at it a couple of months but I have put at least one leg into the money-pit but happy enough with this one given the moon etc, taken a week or so ago

I am reasonably technical so have read lots and do have a normal photography background. If that helps at all I wouldn't know 🙂

I have since had another go at it and got rid of the light pollution a bit but this is the original. Where I am utterly clueless is in the processing which is mind blowing really, well at least it is to me....

 

 

[Astro Noodles]

Thanks Scotty. That's far better than anything that I have managed so far. I am trying to concentrate on focus, polar alignment and finding subjects at the moment. Also processing, exposure length and iso settings are proving difficult. 

May I enquire what sort of kit you are using? 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

If you take a minute and think about what you are trying to do it is a wonder any one without £10,000's of money to throw at it get any sort of image.

You are trying to train your scope an an ever so tiny piece of sky and collect photons on a cameras sensor that have been travelling through space for Thousands of years and there are so few of these photons that you would struggle to see all but the brightest of them at all by eye even through a telescope.

So in actual fact any sort of image is an achievement, especially without all the more refined equipment.

I too when I started was a bit worried about putting my early images on SGL as so many were unbelievably good but don't.
People on here accept there is both a learning curve and an equipment gathering curve to get to a decent level of imaging.
But still putting those first images up can help you tremendously as people will offer really good advice on how to improve those images with what you have, maybe suggest what equipment to invest in next if some of it is not ideal.

Believe me nobody will say anything discouraging and any criticism will only be done to help you advance your own skills.

Often people post images of a nebula that just looks like a load of stars with no recognizable image of a DSO and others can take that and do some further processing that brings out a feint image of what they were trying to image and explain what they have done, and that really encourages you as you obviously then had done something right but were just unable to process the images correctly.

Regarding how long it takes, well unfortunately that's fairly difficult to answer.
A lot of it is good equipment that helps, but a lot is practice and knowledge so getting out there on any clear(ish) night and giving it a go, but then post the images to get advice and help you with the processing side - and read up on it, lots in books or on line.

I have been into AP now around 3 years and I did have some recognisable images after around 3  months (only with help from SGL!) but not what I would call good images, now with some more equipment the images are getting better but I think it is something that improves with time and great images can take many years.
But also I see many fantastic images with fairly basic DSLR cameras and basic tracking mounts so not all people spend £1000's.

Steve

Edited April 29, 2021 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

Just to add as it may not have come across is that I was accepting that the reason I get anything like an ok picture is because I've thrown a bit of money at it. Everything I have works together and is recognised by the software (NINA and PHD2 mainly). All that said it takes a huge amount of fiddling which would be way, way harder I think if I was trying to get my Sony A7 connected/focused for example. Basically I've made it about as easy as I could (for me) but I try not to think about what I've spent to take the "easy" way out 🙂

Edited April 29, 2021 by scotty38

[Chefgage]

1 hour ago, Astro Noodles said:

I have been attempting DSO astrophotography for a couple of months now but haven't yet produced an image I would be prepared to share on this forum. I understand that this is a difficult and complicated thing to do and there is an enormous amount to learn, and I don't yet really have the equipment or skills.

I was just wondering how long it took you before you had produced an image you were satisfied with and prepared to share?

Please don't feel like you cannot post your images here. My opinion is there are no good and bad images as long as you are happy with the result. I think I posted up an image straight away which was a one shot, with no particular processing of M42. I felt a great achievement that I had managed to focus the camera, frame the target and take a picture that showed more than I could see with my own eyes.

By sharing images that you may think are not 'good' others may be able to offer advice on how to move forward.

Just had a quick look and I have found one of my early/first images that I was proud to share on here 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Chefgage

[scotty38]

27 minutes ago, Astro Noodles said:

Thanks Scotty. That's far better than anything that I have managed so far. I am trying to concentrate on focus, polar alignment and finding subjects at the moment. Also processing, exposure length and iso settings are proving difficult. 

May I enquire what sort of kit you are using? 

I don't like listing the kit as it makes me shudder although it's a drop in the ocean compared with some....

WO GT81/0.8x Flatterner/ZWO 294MC Pro

WO 50mm Guidescope/120mm mini

ZWO EAF

ZWO Mini Filter Wheel (to try things like UV/IR and L-Extreme so I can leave the train set up)

AZ-EQ6 and iOptron ipolar (I bought this before I knew enough and with hindsight I didn't need it)

I have an old laptop running NINA/PHD2/Sharpcap etc that I remote into once I've done the polar aligning.

[scotty38]

3 minutes ago, Chefgage said:

Please don't feel like you cannot post your images here. My opinion is there are no good and bad images as long as you are happy with the result. I think I posted up an image straight away which was a one shot, with no particular processing of M42. I felt a great achievement that I had managed to focus the camera, frame the target and take a picture that showed more than I could see with my own eyes.

By sharing images that you may think are not 'good' others may be able to offer advice on how to move forward.

Same here I think my first image was M42 and I was pleased as punch with it but even I can see what's wrong with it now. You'll get loads of advice and just recently I've had so much good info passed on regarding PI processing that you'd be mad NOT to post your images as the help you get is priceless...

[teoria_del_big_bang]

23 minutes ago, Astro Noodles said:

Thanks Scotty. That's far better than anything that I have managed so far. I am trying to concentrate on focus, polar alignment and finding subjects at the moment. Also processing, exposure length and iso settings are proving difficult. 

May I enquire what sort of kit you are using? 

Same sort of things I went trough for sure, even polar alignment had me baffled for a month or two and could just not understand how to do it perfectly, I was getting somewhere near but never great alignment but after asking on SGL it eventually fell into place, and then became pretty much a 5 to 10 minute thing at the start of a session.

Focus again takes a bit of getting just right and in very basic terms approximate focus can be done just by trying to get stars as small as possible, focus in a direction that reduces the blur and as they become smaller and smaller eventually if you keep going the same direction with focus they start to get bigger again.
Often for early images that is sufficient but for better focus you are in no doubt about you need a Bahtinov Focusing Mask.

Exposure length and ISO should be relatively easy and advice will be given on SGL to your best settings if you ask.
Really the exposure length depends on how good your equipment follows the target. Without guiding I think you may have to limit to 30 seconds, but then you still need the mount to track accurately, so good polar alignment and a reasonable mount is still required.
Also unfortunately for DSO's in UK it is not the best time of year and for starting off it is best to choose something relatively bright, most Nebulas are very low down at least until after midnight and on top of that nights are getting short so it is probably the most difficult time of year to start out.
Maybe pick some star clusters to image as they are generally reasonably bright, but pretty small, but good to practice as the idea is to get images without stars trailing and it all helps.

Maybe start off listing the equipment you are using and any of your recent images, no matter how naff you think they are, would be a good start for people to give you some help.

Steve

[Astro Noodles]

Ok 

I took this image on 25th and 29th March using a combo of 10/20 sec exposures at iso 1600 and 6400.  Using Tamron Adaptall 200mm F3.5 (£30 off e-bay), Canon EOS 1100d, Starquest EQ mount with RA motor.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Astro Noodles

[scotty38]

You've done well there as I expect it was pretty low and you'd have had decent moonlight throwing a spanner in the works too.

 

I think that's why I had a try with M13 as it's sort of the other direction and I took a load of 30 seconds exposures so you could maybe try that one same as me?

Edited April 29, 2021 by scotty38

[Astro Noodles]

This one was not as successful. M101 with the same kit but with Ioptron Skyguider Pro, Skytech CLS filter. About 40 x 60 sec at iso 800.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Astro Noodles

[teoria_del_big_bang]

I would agree, certainly no shame in that image of Orion Nebula,at all and I would say better than my first few attempts.
Stars are a bit bloated with halos but I think probably due to the processing and maybe having to over-stretch the image to see the DSO, but they look pretty round and I think pretty much in focus. Colours look good, all in all I think a good image.

And as Scotty points out it would not have been best time of year to capture this as it would have been low down and probably disappeared early on in the night.

So I certainly would be proud of that.

Steve

Edited April 29, 2021 by teoria_del_big_bang

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Even the M101 is recognizable, some star trails which we all suffer from time to time and often when starting out.

[Astro Noodles]

20 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

You've done well there as I expect it was pretty low and you'd have had decent moonlight throwing a spanner in the works too.

 

 

It was disappearing behind a fence after about an hour. I was shooting directly over an LED street light as well. I just wanted to capture M42 because I could find it easily.

[iapa]

28 minutes ago, Astro Noodles said:

Ok 

I took this image on 25th and 29th March using a combo of 10/20 sec exposures at iso 1600 and 6400.  Using Tamron Adaptall 200mm F3.5 (£30 off e-bay), Canon EOS 1100d, Starquest EQ mount with RA motor.

 

Your image looks OK.

More data will improve matters greatly, more signal, and less noise. That way you do not need to stretch so far to get data.

What software did you use for stacking and processing?

[Astro Noodles]

Just now, iapa said:

 

What software did you use for stacking and processing?

I used Deep Sky Stacker and GIMP.

[iapa]

Facetious reply to the question:  a lifetime.

It really is, as others have said, a learning curve.

Work with what you have, understand what you are doing, as much as possible*, rinse and repeat.

When you think you cannot do much better, then look to upgrade - personally my next step would be a GoTo EQ mount, as beefy as you can afford. Ask in SGL first for advice.

 

* by this I mean you may not understand how the light gets here or why the colours, it’s magic I think. But a bit more ho your camera/lens interacts.

[Astro Noodles]

2 hours ago, iapa said:

Facetious reply to the question:  a lifetime.

It really is, as others have said, a learning curve.

Work with what you have, understand what you are doing, as much as possible*, rinse and repeat.

When you think you cannot do much better, then look to upgrade - personally my next step would be a GoTo EQ mount, as beefy as you can afford. Ask in SGL first for advice.

 

* by this I mean you may not understand how the light gets here or why the colours, it’s magic I think. But a bit more ho your camera/lens interacts.

This is the approach I am taking. I don't see that there is a great deal of point in spending a lot of money at the moment as I can practice and develop my skills with what I've got. I think that my next step will be to upgrade the optics. A modest refactor in the 60mm range or perhaps a better camera lens. I also need to get out of the habit of feeling tired and wanting to go to bed at midnight,

Edited April 29, 2021 by Astro Noodles

[Astro Noodles]

Here is a single exposure 1/1000th sec iso 3200 through Sky-Watcher 130p with2x barlow (1300mm focal length).

It was taken in daylight at 7:30 to 8:00 PM.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Astro Noodles

[teoria_del_big_bang]

So wheres all the awful images you didn't want to post ?

Only joking. 🙂 
There are some good images there, okay the one of the pinwheel has trailing stars and we have all been there and I certainly still get them sometimes for whatever reason.

So do not be so hard on yourself, for early images I am well impressed, yes you have a way to go to improve on them but that's where we all started and most of us still improving. I now think I produce some reasonably good images, and for sure miles way better than I thought I would ever do 3 years or so ago when just starting out.
But still when I see some of the images produced by the better imagers on SGL ,or other websites, by our members I realise I am a long way off their standard and I put some of it down to their equipment, but in many instances it is comparable, or in some ways inferior equipment to mine (or considered inferior)  and that is down to their experience and practice and most of all dedication.

Will I ever be that good ?
Who knows, I guess maybe but maybe not, but I am really not too bothered.
I stick my tripod and rig outside my house on my patio, with security lights coming on all around the other houses and car headlights passing but still produce reasonable images, in focus, no star trails that years ago would be impossible and I feel proud of what I have achieved.
And most of all, the important thing is I enjoy it 🙂   (Most of the time!)

Steve

Edited April 29, 2021 by teoria_del_big_bang

[iapa]

50 minutes ago, Astro Noodles said:

This is the approach I am taking. I don't see that there is a great deal of point in spending a lot of money at the moment as I can practice and develop my skills with what I've got. I think that my next step will be to upgrade the optics. A modest refactor in the 60mm range or perhaps a better camera lens. I also need to get out of the habit of feeling tied and wanting to go to bed a midnight,

What optics did you get with the Starquest, or was it mount only?

If you want sleep - change your hobby

I’d say your lens and camera of fine for the time being, and personally, would again recommend a GoTo EQ mount.

1. Polar alignment will be easier
2. You can add a small guidescope and camera, allowing the mount to tracks the target more accurately and you get longer exposures
3. Once you have taken the lens to infinity and beyond - see what I did there? Bad eh? - you can add your refractor secure in the knowledge your new mount will carry it. The starquest has an observing payload of 3Kg, when imaging it is recommended that you keep within 60-75% or a bit over 2Kg, which is a bit limiting.

Anyway, I digress - save your pocket money (or in my case pension) for a while and nail your current setup.

 

 

 

[iapa]

17 minutes ago, Astro Noodles said:

Here is a single exposure 1/1000th sec iso 3200 through Sky-Watcher 130p with2x barlow (1300mm focal length).

It was taken in daylight at 7:30 to 8:00 PM.

 

The 130p is a good ‘scope, other than it’s need for the Barlow.

I have see where people have modified these to move the primary/read mirror forward and inch or so to bring focus out of the focuser eliminating the need for the Barlow.

Your images - you should be proud off them.

[Astro Noodles]

3 minutes ago, iapa said:

What optics did you get with the Starquest, or was it mount only?

If you want sleep - change your hobby

I’d say your lens and camera of fine for the time being, and personally, would again recommend a GoTo EQ mount.

1. Polar alignment will be easier
2. You can add a small guidescope and camera, allowing the mount to tracks the target more accurately and you get longer exposures
3. Once you have taken the lens to infinity and beyond - see what I did there? Bad eh? - you can add your refractor secure in the knowledge your new mount will carry it. The starquest has an observing payload of 3Kg, when imaging it is recommended that you keep within 60-75% or a bit over 2Kg, which is a bit limiting.

Anyway, I digress - save your pocket money (or in my case pension) for a while and nail your current setup.

 

 

 

Thanks iapa. I just splashed out on a Sky-guider pro last week. It has a 5kg capacity. so I will play around with it for a while.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

8 minutes ago, iapa said:

If you want sleep - change your hobby

Ha Ha Ha, best advice so far - but who wants sleep 🙂 

Steve