Takahashi FC-100 and FC-76 advice

[Commanderfish]

Hi all,

I'm very tempted by the idea of a flourite refractor. I enjoy my triplet fracs (115 and 127) more than any other type of scope for general use due to the sharpness, contrast and sparkly diamonds-on-velvet views. My typical usage of a frac is on one side of a giro mount, with a larger scope on the other side. Currently the larger scopes are Classical Cassegrains. I am strictly visual only.

My big set up at home on my balcony (less affected by streetlights as 1.5 stories high)  is an ES 127 Triplet Apo alongside a CC8. My grab and go is a TS Photoline 115 Triplet Apo and CC6.

The frac in each case is mostly set to around x23 and 3 degrees of field. The CC is then used to view small DSOs (open clusters, globs, small nebs) and lunar. Planets too if there were any around.

The proposed Tak would likely operate in three uses:

1) in place of the 115 triplet alongside a CC6. It would be around three kg lighter which would be handy;

2) on its own on a Manfrotto 405 Geared Head and photo tripod for real light grab and go, likely taken on car journeys like  Cornwall/Europe;

3) as per 2 but specifically for airline holidays. I only fly abroad once every 2 to 3 years for environmental reasons.

Questions:

1) is an FC-100 likely to give sharper contrastier views than a 115 FPL51 triplet?

2) Would the loss of 15mm aperture be noticeable?

3) There are three versions, the DC which is F7.4 with a 1.25" focuser. I prefer to use 2" EPs wherever possible (every use except possibly airline travel). I've read that you need to buy a 2" visual back for £100 but it can be difficult to get EPs to focus due to the tube being a little too long.

 

The DF version costs £300 more (!!) but has a heftier focuser, 2" visual back, and more importantly the tube is slightly shorter so 2" EPs come to focus. This is the version I currently believe most suitable for me. Downside is the dew shield doesn't slide but can be unscrewed, as can the focuser, for airline travel. Has anyone done this? Do Takahashi supply anything to cover the exposed unscrewed ends or do any of you have a sneaky tip for this e.g. elasticated end caps?

The DZ costs another £300 over the DF(!!) and has a sliding dewshield, which is useful. However it's F8 so the fields will be a bit narrower, and I do like my wide fields. I've read that there is a slight improvement at high mags over the F7.4 but not much - and bear in mind that I'm strictly visual and 90 percent of my viewing is done at home, where I always have a second scope for high aperture/high mag. The DZ is also the heaviest and longest FL which may make it a bit wobbly on some photo tripods.

I don't know if I can bring myself to fork out yet another £300 for a sliding dew shield when I don't particularly want to go up to F8.

Any advice from those with experience of the Taks?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Commanderfish

[JeremyS]

I’d stick with your existing triplet 115 frac, Fish. Especially as you mainly use for low power wide field. I can’t see the Tak 100s outperforming.

[mikeDnight]

First, the sliding dew shield of the DZ only slides by 80mm, so not really a deal breaker in my opinion. Despite being F8, the DZ can be compacted down to 58.5cm with the dewshield retracted and the extension tubes fully removed. Is that enough to warrant paying the extra?   Optically the DZ is simply gorgeous and could quickly win your heart. But I've also had the DC version, which proved to be my most used scope out of the 41 years I've been observing. The DC, which is optically identical to the DF is equally as much a jewel in the hands of a visual observer as the DZ, again IMO. I found the DC to offer vibrant views of planetary detail, especially Jupiter and Mars. The Moon will stun you!  The DZ by comparison seems to offer a slightly cooler, more Icey view, if that appeals to you as it does to me, and is similar to the DL, or older Vixen FL102. Bottom line is that all are top class refractors that will give you textbook star images upto 500X on a top class night. DSO's are unusually bright in these fluorite doublets too.

The DC will take 2" eyepieces with a 2" adapter,  but the focuser travel is only about 38mm. The DF would be a better option if you could afford the extra. But is the DZ worth the extra?  Having owned both, I really wouldn't lose sleep over the difference between the three.

Below my DC Focuser

 

Below my DZ Focuser.

Edited March 30, 2021 by mikeDnight

[Commanderfish]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

I’d stick with your existing triplet 115 frac, Fish. Especially as you mainly use for low power wide field. I can’t see the Tak 100s outperforming.

Thanks.  This change would not be about seeing more objects, it's more about the quality of the view.  The reviews I've read of the Flourite Taks all speak of exceptional sharpness and contrast which boosts detail.  This is what I need to assess...

[Commanderfish]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

First, the sliding dew shield of the DZ only slides by 80mm, so not really a deal breaker in my opinion. Despite being F8, the DZ can be compacted down to 58.5cm with the dewshield retracted and the extension tubes fully removed. Is that enough to warrant paying the extra?   Optically the DZ is simply gorgeous and could quickly win your heart. But I've also had the DC version, which proved to be my most used scope out of the 41 years I've been observing. The DC, which is optically identical to the DF is equally as much a jewel in the hands of a visual observer as the DZ, again IMO. I found the DC to offer vibrant views of planetary detail, especially Jupiter and Mars. The Moon will stun you!  The DZ by comparison seems to offer a slightly cooler, more Ivey view, if that appeals to you as it does to me, and is similar to the DL, or older Vixen FL102. Bottom line is that all are top class refractors that will give you textbook star images upto 500X on a top class night. DSO's are unusually bright in these fluorite doublets too.

The DC will take 2" eyepieces with a 2" adapter,  but the focuser travel is only about 38mm. The DF would be a better option if you could afford the extra. But is the DZ worth the extra?  Having owned both, I really wouldn't lose sleep over the difference between the three.

Below my DC Focuser

 

Below my DZ Focuser.

Very helpful, thanks!  The DF is probably right for me then.  I think there may have been a typo, would did you mean by "more Ivey view"?

[Stu]

I had a few 120EDs at a similar time to my FC100DC and personally always found myself reaching for the Tak, mainly out of convenience, lighter and shorter tube and under my skies I never felt it was missing out on much to the 120. Ultimately aperture does define resolution, so the 115 should have a slight advantage, but it’s heavier and takes longer to cool.

My choice was to go for the DC and immediately replace the focuser with a Feathertouch which I’ve never regretted. It was an FTF2025BCR if I remember correctly and the A20-304 adaptor is the one you need to fit the Tak. The fine focus is lovely as I know you will be aware, and no problem with focusing with a 2” diagonal, and it works fine with binoviewers too. You do need an extension of using with a T2 or 1.25” prism or diagonal though.

The DC is airline portable with a bit of planning. I’ll try to dig out my thread on it. To cap the ends I use Lenscoat Hoodies which work beautifully, can’t recall who I got the idea from or which size I use but I can check.

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/lenscoat-hoodie-lens-cap-large-black-1019929/

[John]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

I’d stick with your existing triplet 115 frac, Fish. Especially as you mainly use for low power wide field. I can’t see the Tak 100s outperforming.

I have a Tak FC100-DL (the F/9 version) and a very good Skywatcher ED120 and tend to agree with this.

The FC100-DL gets very close to the performance of the ED120 on the moon, planets and double stars. The ED120 goes a little deeper on DSO's.

The FC100 is a superb scope and but it's not really been a "game changer" compared with the humble ED120, not to me at least. I'm glad I own it though

 

[Commanderfish]

26 minutes ago, Stu said:

I had a few 120EDs at a similar time to my FC100DC and personally always found myself reaching for the Tak, mainly out of convenience, lighter and shorter tube and under my skies I never felt it was missing out on much to the 120. Ultimately aperture does define resolution, so the 115 should have a slight advantage, but it’s heavier and takes longer to cool.

Very helpful as ever, Stu!  Excellent, those lens hoodies are exactly the thing. 

Feathertouch are lovely focusers.  That Feathertouch and adapter are a staggering £659 at the moment!!  Also I have found that I very rarely use my micro focusers.   I personally like rolling the big wheel very gradually. I don't know why, I just don't actually like using the 1:10 reduction.  That being the case, I will probably save the £390 by buying the DF over the DC + Feathertouch...

[Commanderfish]

30 minutes ago, John said:

I have a Tak FC100-DL (the F/9 version) and a very good Skywatcher ED120 and tend to agree with this.

The FC100-DL gets very close to the performance of the ED120 on the moon, planets and double stars. The ED120 goes a little deeper on DSO's.

The FC100 is a superb scope and but it's not really been a "game changer" compared with the humble ED120, not to me at least. I'm glad I own it though

 

Very useful, thanks!  I may be better off keeping what I've got.

There is the weight and mounting issue though.  The 115/800 is 6.2Kg and needs at least a Mini Giro and another scope alongside to counterbalance it, which is fine for home but not for travel.  The FC100-DF version is only 3.3Kg and 740mmm FL which makes a lighter mount and photo tripod viable.  

Hmm, decisions decisions...

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, Commanderfish said:

Thanks.  This change would not be about seeing more objects, it's more about the quality of the view.  The reviews I've read of the Flourite Taks all speak of exceptional sharpness and contrast which boosts detail.  This is what I need to assess...

I guess the question is what is it about the view that you get with a 115 triplet that you’d like to improve on for low power viewing?

I might be the first to recommend a Tak, owning an FC 100 DZ and an FS 102, but since you’ve already got a fine frac I’m not so sure. Maybe for high power views on exceptional nights you’d prefer the Tak, but you use your CC for that.

But don’t let me put you off buying a Tak. The joy of ownership is wonderful 😊

 

[Commanderfish]

The 115 is very very good, yes. If even higher sharpness and higher contrast is possible then that is what I'm after. Also the Tak is 3kg lighter for grab and go and is feasible for photo tripods, car holidays where the boot is already full, air lines...

Can't really do that stuff with a 6.2kg frac plus eyepieces...

 

 

 

[JeremyS]

Have you considered the Tak FC 76 DCU? Tube splits into two, and very light, so it’s readily  airline portable (I use a photo backpack). Great for car travels too. And it gives lovely wide field views to complement your CC.

[Commanderfish]

Yes I was originally considering the 76mm actually!! 

I've taken an ED80 on holiday before and it was very good, but just imagine how much more I would see with a 100mm.  That's the trouble when you're away, you usually only have one scope so it needs to do it all.   Bear in mind I do love my DSOs like globs, M42, Swan, Eagle etc.   

 How has your 76 done with little DSOs like that?  Or do you mostly use it for lunar/planetary when you're away?

Cheers

[Stu]

As John says, the Tak is not a miracle machine, and doesn’t defy the laws of physics. What it does, for me anyway, is produce top notch performance in such a light and convenient package that it gets used SO much. Mine is by far my most used scope, used for solar white light, lunar, planetary and widefield deep sky. It has been to the US with me and on numerous U.K. holidays. I do have a Vixen FL102S which is an f8.8 fluorite giving all but identical performance, if anything a little easier to get to higher powers, but it is significantly bigger and a little heavier so gets used less. I keep it because it is a very fine (and hard to replace) example of a fairly legendary scope, rather than anything it does better.

Personally, and this is I’m sure a very individual thing, I prefer the view through the Tak to that through the 120EDs I have had. Hard to define, but there is a purity to the Tak which is not quite there in the 120EDs I’ve owned. Perhaps John’s is a particularly good example, that’s not impossible as there is definitely variation between samples.

Interestingly regarding focusers, I use the fine focus all the time on mine, and find it invaluable for nailing the focus particularly on solar white light but generally any high power viewing. I also find that the mere fact a focuser has a fine focus also gives a more controllable weight to the coarse focus so I do understand you just using this. FTs are a fortune now aren’t they? I doubt I would be able to afford one now, which is why the Vixen has a Moonlite! I don’t think a Moonlight would suit a Tak though, too big and bulky.

[JeremyS]

Just now, Commanderfish said:

Yes I was originally considering the 76mm actually!! 

I've taken an ED80 on holiday before and it was very good, but just imagine how much more I would see with a 100mm.  That's the trouble when you're away, you usually only have one scope so it needs to do it all.   Bear in mind I do love my DSOs like globs, M42, Swan, Eagle etc.   

 How has your 76 done with little DSOs like that?  Or do you mostly use it for lunar/planetary when you're away?

Cheers

I use it for all those things, Fish 😊

 

[Commanderfish]

14 hours ago, Stu said:

Interestingly regarding focusers, I use the fine focus all the time on mine, and find it invaluable for nailing the focus particularly on solar white light but generally any high power viewing. I also find that the mere fact a focuser has a fine focus also gives a more controllable weight to the coarse focus so I do understand you just using this. FTs are a fortune now aren’t they? I doubt I would be able to afford one now, which is why the Vixen has a Moonlite! I don’t think a Moonlight would suit a Tak though, too big and bulky.

Yes that's exactly my finding - a good dual speed focuser has a very nice, weighty feel to the large focuser wheel - quite a lot of resistance - which makes it easy to reach the exact focus spot.  The little wheel (1/10th the turn rate) doesn't have that resistance and just doesn't feel as accurate and satisfying to use.

 

[Commanderfish]

14 hours ago, JeremyS said:

I use it for all those things, Fish 😊

 

Now this is quite telling.  The optical quality and contrast must be really exceptional to be using a 76mm on those objects.  I'd really like to try a flourite scope as I suspect from everything I've read that I'm going to love the quality of views.  But as you both say, they're not miracle machines so aperture counts.

Although I love wide fields, oddly I don't like them TOO wide.  I never used my ED80 wider than 4.4 degrees (Ethos 21) as I actually found it too wide to find my way easily as the sky is too full of stars, plus the sky is darker with higher mag.  I don't much like going lower than x23 ish.

Looking at the FC76  (570mm FL) for widefield I would most likely use it with an Ethos 21mm at x27 and a nice 3.7 degrees.  That is good, x27 is a nice mag for a field that size.  The next EP up would be a 30mm 82 degree which at x19 is a little low for my liking - unless I buy a 24mm 82 degree as well

The wider fields produced by the FC76 with my personal preference of magnification would not be much wider than the FC100 F7.4, which would produce about x24 and 3.4 degrees using a 30mm 82 degree.  But x27 and 3.7 degrees is nicer.  However as a solo instrument for car journeys and air flights I think the aperture of the FC100 probably makes more sense?  More aperture for little nebs, globs and planets...

[Commanderfish]

Any thoughts on a used Sky 90 instead? It seems they are sensitive to collimation and not as sharp as the FS for planetary...

[mikeDnight]

On 29/03/2021 at 17:50, Commanderfish said:

Very helpful, thanks!  The DF is probably right for me then.  I think there may have been a typo, would did you mean by "more Ivey view"?

Sorry about the incorrect auto correct. I meant "more icey view."

I'd just like to add that the FC's, despite being 100mm aperture, make great grab and go scopes.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, Commanderfish said:

Any thoughts on a used Sky 90 instead? It seems they are sensitive to collimation and not as sharp as the FS for planetary...

Been there, done that, got bitten badly. I know some people rate them but I did not rate the one I had. It seemed to be collimated well but just wasn’t that great off axis. I wanted a grab and go widefield scope but whilst it was decent at higher powers it wasn’t great for low power/wide field. 
 

I sold my lovely Tak FC76DC to buy it and regret that very much. The 76 was much sharper. The 90 was much bigger and bulkier too. The FC100DC is in a different league in my book.

[Commanderfish]

Yep I had read about off axis issues. Not cool at all. Hmm it's between the FC76 and the FC100.

I think the FC100 may make more sense in the long run. My grab and go pair is a little heavy at the mo with the 115mm triplet and the CC6.

I could compare the Fc100 against the 115 and see if I could bear to sell the 115, which in my opinion is both awesome and good value. But given I'm selling my VX16 and about to list my AR152 for sale as well, I could do this...

 

 

[HollyHound]

On 29/03/2021 at 20:28, Commanderfish said:

Bear in mind I do love my DSOs like globs, M42, Swan, Eagle etc.   

 How has your 76 done with little DSOs like that?  Or do you mostly use it for lunar/planetary when you're away?

Cheers

Having just become the owner of an FC-76DCU and had a couple of hours with it so far, I can safely say that in addition to absolutely superb lunar viewing, I was able to get beautiful views of M42 the other night and some doubles (including the Double Double, even through quite low over some trees) 😃

I have no doubt the FC-100 would pull more detail out, but for my use case... as a complement to my 10” dob and CC 6”, this is a superb scope.

Being so light, I’ve taken it out, mounted on the ScopeTech/Report combo, easily with one hand and it was ready to go straight away.

I’m so taken with it, that I’ve just bought an FC-60CB to accompany it, in the wild expectation that I might be able to take this on holiday with us later in the year, but also to provide binocular like wide views (using an XW 30 or 40).

I still think that the advice to go for the FC-100 as a “one scope” makes total sense, but these others are wonderfully complementary instruments 👍

Edited March 31, 2021 by HollyHound

[HollyHound]

On 30/03/2021 at 11:07, Commanderfish said:

Yes that's exactly my finding - a good dual speed focuser has a very nice, weighty feel to the large focuser wheel - quite a lot of resistance - which makes it easy to reach the exact focus spot.  The little wheel (1/10th the turn rate) doesn't have that resistance and just doesn't feel as accurate and satisfying to use.

 

I’m the same, I have micro focusers on all my scopes, but usually reach for the main knob most of the time, rather than the micro focuser knob.

It does get used occasionally though and adds a different feel (as you say), so always nice to have it.

I’ve ordered the FeatherTouch Micro Pinion for my FC-76DCU, as I want to retain the “Tak” look but benefit from micro focus when needed... should get round to fitting it this weekend and see how it works out 🤔😃

[Commanderfish]

2 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

I’m the same, I have micro focusers on all my scopes, but usually reach for the main knob most of the time, rather than the micro focuser knob.

It does get used occasionally though and adds a different feel (as you say), so always nice to have it.

I’ve ordered the FeatherTouch Micro Pinion for my FC-76DCU, as I want to retain the “Tak” look but benefit from micro focus when needed... should get round to fitting it this weekend and see how it works out 🤔😃

Excellent, let me know how you find it, whether the feel on the big focuser knob feels right to you, as per decent aftermarket focusers.

I think your DCU has the smaller focuser with the 35mm travel, how are you finding that and are you using any 2" EPs?

 

 

[Commanderfish]

13 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

I’m so taken with it, that I’ve just bought an FC-60CB to accompany it, in the wild expectation that I might be able to take this on holiday with us later in the year, but also to provide binocular like wide views (using an XW 30 or 40).

I still think that the advice to go for the FC-100 as a “one scope” makes total sense, but these others are wonderfully complementary instruments 👍

I have been fantasising about using an FC-60 as a super finder/widefield scope alongside an FC100 - please let me know how you find it in use!

Surely your 76DCU can go on hols with you - or do you mean to take both 76 and 60? I know I would...

Edited March 31, 2021 by Commanderfish