Refractor versus Reflector

[NGC 1502]

Ok, I’m not referring to the optical difference or quality of the views for visual astronomy.

What I am mentioning is convenience in use.  I’ve just had a session with one of my alt-az mounted refractors I’ve not used for a while. Whilst I did enjoy the mainly double star observing, it was a bit of a pain....the tripod legs get in the way of where I need to put my observing chair, and the constant adjustment of the chair height according to where the eyepiece was, very low down for observing at a high elevation. It seemed a lot of messing around compared with my Dobsonian reflectors.

With my Dobs I can use a fixed height observing chair, the eyepiece is always much easier to get to, never very low down, and the Dob mount doesn’t get in the way.  I do find my Dobs so much more convenient to use.

Of course we’re all different with what’s good or not so good. You may not agree that’s fine, but what are your own thoughts?

Ed.

[scarp15]

For at home convenience, instinctively opt to haul outside the 8" dob on most occasions, as setting up as one unit is swift. The refractor being stored away is more time consuming assembling, although on the next good lunar night I will probably opt to take out the refractor. Sometimes getting the right tripod height can also become a bit of a procedure, yet is advantageous when pursuing lower lying objects based upon my constrictive horizon. 

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

After using an 8" dobson, two small reflectors on alt az mounts, two =<f7 refractors and a 4" maksutov, I'd say standing while observing through the reflectors was the most comfortable, followed by the Mak with the light weight tripod height at near minimum whilst sitting.

However the standing position with the reflectors, despite the comfortable eyepiece position, did produce some fatigue during longer sessions.

The slight awkwardness experienced using the refractors is offset by the sitting position allowing longer, less wearing time at the eyepiece and that occasionally awkward posture will be cured when I eventually pick up an adjustable observing seat.

The dob kicked off my lower back pain despite trying a platform. If I was shorter it would have been fine.

[John]

I find them about the same re: ease of use, convenience etc. Both types really easy to set up and use.

I have 1 dob, a 12 inch and 4 refractors from 100mm to 130mm which I use on alt-az mounts.

I stand while observing.

Tonight I chose a 130mm refractor and it's been a lot of fun chasing galaxies and double stars plus a few globular clusters. It was a rather milky sky earlier (hence the refractor choice) but the transparency has improved a lot over the past hour.

If I want to go as "deep" as I can though, the 12 inch dob gets the nod every time of course. For double stars I prefer refractor views although the 12 inch can out resolve them of course.

I enjoy using both types of scope

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by John

[Louis D]

The Dob is much easier to set up and observe with while seated.  My refractors are nice for the purity of the star images, but can be a pain to use while seated as you said.  I can't stand and observe for more than a couple of minutes before fatigue sets in.

I use both just to change things up.

[KP82]

I use my dob if my primary targets of the day are DSOs.

Otherwise I use my 107 frac on the iEXOS-100 for pretty much everything else visual. Tracking allows a very relaxed experience at high powers often used on the Moon, the planets and doubles. Also the sometimes awkward eyepiece position isn't so bad when I don't have to constantly nudge the scope or turn the slow-mo cables to manually track the targets.

My 72ED is used for terrestrial and widefield sweep. This is when I prefer a manual alt-az mount to a motorised one.

Edited March 17, 2021 by KP82

[NGC 1502]

Thanks all for the varied thoughts and experiences. As always what suits one individual may not suit another, it’s a case of finding what works best for you.

I think that the problems I’ve found with refractor use are made worse by observing a range of objects at different parts of the sky during a session. That means multiple shifting of my observing chair, adjusting the height and getting reasonably comfy.  

Perhaps for an extended session on one object it works much better, like Jupiter occultations and shadow transits, you can get comfortable and enjoy the view.

Ed.

[Carl Au]

I had a couple of large dobs, well large to me anyway at 10 inches, I found them to be a complete pain and rarely used them. I sold some very nice refractors to pay for them too, which was a big mistake, one  I still regret sadly. 

[NGC 1502]

21 minutes ago, Carl Au said:

I had a couple of large dobs, well large to me anyway at 10 inches, I found them to be a complete pain and rarely used them. I sold some very nice refractors to pay for them too, which was a big mistake, one  I still regret sadly. 

In spite of what I’ve said I am fond of refractors. I once owned a lovely TV 85 and regret selling it....seemed like a good idea at the time😢

Your mention of Dobs being a complete pain, I do get that and have heard similar from others.....yet again this proves the point of finding what suits yourself, not someone else.  At my local club I’ve been asked about what scope to get. I always say that I love basic Dobs for visual, but point out my club has scopes of all types for loan, try it and if it’s not good for you just swap it for something else.....a club subscription could save a fortune when members can borrow scopes at no further cost👍
 

Ed.

[Stu]

I do agree in many ways Ed, despite being a committed refractor nut! Putting a dob out can be much quicker than assembling a refractor on its mount, especially if it is light enough to carry in one go like my 8” f8. As you say, the range of movement needed to cope with eyepiece height changes is smaller so it can be less hassle.

I do enjoy my refractors on an EQ mount for solar, lunar and planetary but as you say, tripod legs can get in the way of the observing chair, and I often find myself perched right at the top of it in order to look down into the eyepiece. For some reason I don’t like putting the eyepiece off to one side or the other, the orientation just ends up seeming wrong to me! For other types of observing I prefer an alt az mount, just easier and more intuitive.

I do find that tripod mounted scopes have an advantage when observing from my garden which is surrounded by hedges and fences; you just gain that bit of extra height which can help with low down objects.

[Carl Au]

21 hours ago, Stu said:

 

I do find that tripod mounted scopes have an advantage when observing from my garden which is surrounded by hedges and fences; you just gain that bit of extra height which can help with low down objects.

Me too, I lose 20% of the sky if i use a dob in my back garden, the zenth is a nightmare with a dob, the reason for my freak astronomy accident. I fell backwards off my ironing board chair trying to observe M31 and when I fell I managed to fall onto the chair, very, very hard.  I broke 4 ribs and very painful it was too, for weeks. It was 3 in the morning too and I was alone, I still have no idea how I got in the house.  Anyway thats why I sold my last dob and have never used one again. 

Also since I use an AZ 4 the set up time is very quick and I can sneak out between the clouds. I have almost no cool down time either, I couldn't say that about any of my dobs. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Carl Au

[mikeDnight]

On 16/03/2021 at 23:39, NGC 1502 said:

Ok, I’m not referring to the optical difference or quality of the views for visual astronomy.

What I am mentioning is convenience in use.  I’ve just had a session with one of my alt-az mounted refractors I’ve not used for a while. Whilst I did enjoy the mainly double star observing, it was a bit of a pain....the tripod legs get in the way of where I need to put my observing chair, and the constant adjustment of the chair height according to where the eyepiece was, very low down for observing at a high elevation. It seemed a lot of messing around compared with my Dobsonian reflectors.

With my Dobs I can use a fixed height observing chair, the eyepiece is always much easier to get to, never very low down, and the Dob mount doesn’t get in the way.  I do find my Dobs so much more convenient to use.

Of course we’re all different with what’s good or not so good. You may not agree that’s fine, but what are your own thoughts?

Ed.

Stick with what works best for you. If you're comfortable you'll see more, but if you're fighting with the instrument, your heart won't be in your observing. I'm of the opposite view point, in that I find refractors to be much easier and more comfortable than a Dob. I find Dob's play havoc with my back and the eyepiece is never in a truly comfortable position, but with a refractor its the easiest thing in the world to angle the diagonal for a really comfortable view. 

[dweller25]

I have a bad back and find Newtonians very uncomfortable to use in both Dobsonian and equatorial modes because of it - if it wasn’t for the back I would only have a Newtonian as they perform well, cool quickly and don’t dew up. I always recommend them when a new members asks about which scope to buy. Great scopes 👍

My back likes short tube folded scopes the best as there is less eyepiece movement. I have had a Mewlon 210, an Orion Optics OMC200 and an Intes Micro 715 - all were VERY comfortable to use BUT proper cool down took a long time and once cooled the correctors would dew up and they seemed more susceptible to poor seeing, so gradually they were all sold  🙁

So that leaves me now using a refractor - small aperture and expensive but sharp views, quick cool down, an extra long dew shield slows dewing up and a reasonable eyepiece position - best compromise for me 😁

 

[mikeDnight]

On 16/03/2021 at 23:39, NGC 1502 said:

Ok, I’m not referring to the optical difference or quality of the views for visual astronomy.

What I am mentioning is convenience in use.  I’ve just had a session with one of my alt-az mounted refractors I’ve not used for a while. Whilst I did enjoy the mainly double star observing, it was a bit of a pain....the tripod legs get in the way of where I need to put my observing chair, and the constant adjustment of the chair height according to where the eyepiece was, very low down for observing at a high elevation. It seemed a lot of messing around compared with my Dobsonian reflectors.

With my Dobs I can use a fixed height observing chair, the eyepiece is always much easier to get to, never very low down, and the Dob mount doesn’t get in the way.  I do find my Dobs so much more convenient to use.

Of course we’re all different with what’s good or not so good. You may not agree that’s fine, but what are your own thoughts?

Ed.

Here are some old cartoons used in Unitron advertisements back in the 1950's. For me they sum up the beauty and comfort of observing through a good refractor. Of course after John Dobson created his plywood box to mount a Newtonian in, things did become more manouverable, but not necessarily better for the reflector user. Equatorial mounts are still wonderful things when observing at high power, but with a Newtonian, rotating tube rings can be a blessing.

I still love a nice equatorial even with a Newtonian.

 

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

Here are some old cartoons used in Unitron advertisements back in the 1950's. For me they sum up the beauty and comfort of observing through a good refractor. Of course after John Dobson created his plywood box to mount a Newtonian in, things did become more manouverable, but not necessarily better for the reflector user. Equatorial mounts are still wonderful things when observing at high power, but with a Newtonian, rotating tube rings can be a blessing.

I still love a nice equatorial even with a Newtonian.

 

Did you get paid much for modelling in those cartoons Mike?

[niallk]

I've a 50mm frac for Ha solar on an alt-az tripod mount, and it is really convenient to throw outside for a quick few minute session.

But for night time, it's hard to compete with the aperture and resolution of a dob

There's effort to set up and allow for cooling, and of course collimation - though not a big deal with the right tools.  The mirror box has a fair bit of weight.

I would love to try something like a 100 ED on an alt-az.  Could be a great companion setup.

Edited March 19, 2021 by niallk

[Louis D]

I can totally understand why fast Dobs have become so popular based the above cartoon.

That's a Webster 28" f/2.7.  Can you imagine putting that on an EQ mount, especially if it was f/8 like '50s era Newts?

[faulksy]

18 minutes ago, Louis D said:

I can totally understand why fast Dobs have become so popular based the above cartoon.

That's a Webster 28" f/2.7.  Can you imagine putting that on an EQ mount, especially if it was f/8 like '50s era Newts?

beautiful