Trouble and ambiguity with finding Polaris

[ollypenrice]

Just now, JeremyS said:

Well that’s soft southerners for you, Olly. You would not have had that trouble with @mikeDnight, @paulastro or me.
 

😊

I'm not going anywhere near this one!!!! (Even if I am from Lancashire...)

lly

[John]

When I used to go to club meets, I often had to confirm the name of a few brightish stars (not Polaris) to folks who were setting up their GOTO's

[ddm4313]

Seems this time I polar aligned somewhat successfully, I went to a more open field where Polaris isn't as obstructed, did 15s exposure on Orion Nebula and no trails, I even compared no tracking and tracking and the difference is great, so it seems to work. Doing 30s seems to start star trailing so I assume its not very well polar aligned, but it seems to be rough polar alignment, not perfect but I'm very happy for now. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by ddm4313

[AlexK]

Rule No.1: Dark adapt your eyes for at least 15 min first.

[Jiggy 67]

1 hour ago, Mr Spock said:

 

All these gadgets and apps are just faff. Once you get used to where Polaris is (it doesn't move) alignment will take seconds

There’s two different subjects here. When I talk about using an app, I’m talking about getting Polaris in the polar scope fov, not finding Polaris, most people can see it, we know where it is. What can be a faff is setting your tripod and mount up, so that Polaris is in the fov, highly unlikely by luck and can result in taking time squatting behind the mount whilst you try and line it up, by eye, with Polaris, my point is, apps and gadgets make this a whole lot easier and quicker

[mikeDnight]

I have at times been momentarily star-struck when I've been out in the stick's on a particularly clear and transparent night, but only ever momentarily.  There were no goto or computers on the scene when I started out in astronomy in 1980, so learning my way around the night sky meant either learning to star hop and use actual star charts, or learn how to use setting circles. So looking back, I consider myself lucky in a way, but I do sympathize with the more modern observer/imager who hasn't benefited from my clear 1980's skies and simple but effective way of observing. 

[mikeDnight]

6 minutes ago, Jiggy 67 said:

There’s two different subjects here. When I talk about using an app, I’m talking about getting Polaris in the polar scope fov, not finding Polaris, most people can see it, we know where it is. What can be a faff is setting your tripod and mount up, so that Polaris is in the fov, highly unlikely by luck and can result in taking time squatting behind the mount whilst you try and line it up, by eye, with Polaris, my point is, apps and gadgets make this a whole lot easier and quicker

Being a dinosaur,  I'm at a loss as to how app's and gadgets can make finding Polaris in a polar scope any easier. But from my dinosaur perspective, I've always found it very easy to align Polaris providing the scope and counterweight are not attached to the mount. It just makes manipulating the axis much easier when its just the mount body that needs adjusting.

[Jiggy 67]

5 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Being a dinosaur,  I'm at a loss as to how app's and gadgets can make finding Polaris in a polar scope any easier. But from my dinosaur perspective, I've always found it very easy to align Polaris providing the scope and counterweight are not attached to the mount. It just makes manipulating the axis much easier when its just the mount body that needs adjusting.

Can I refer you to my earlier post re the app PS Align Pro

[John]

21 minutes ago, Jiggy 67 said:

Can I refer you to my earlier post re the app PS Align Pro

Is there a PS Align Am (Amateur) version ?

 

[ecuador]

6 minutes ago, John said:

Is there a PS Align Am (Amateur) version ?

 

Don't worry, PS Align Pro is the version for Amateurs.

I added the Daytime align tool Jiggy mentioned when I was going to the 2017 eclipse, but it seems that many of my users use it for night-time alignment when they lack a view of Polaris. So, the version currently under development has a new "Hop Align" tool, that allows you to center any star you can actually see (preferably not too far from the north), before the app "hops" you to the Celestial Pole, having used the reference star as a calibration point. Anyone interested in trying it out early, just pm me with an email to add you to the beta test list. Otherewise it should be in the public version soon enough

 

[John]

3 minutes ago, ecuador said:

Don't worry, PS Align Pro is the version for Amateurs.

I added the Daytime align tool Jiggy mentioned when I was going to the 2017 eclipse, but it seems that many of my users use it for night-time alignment when they lack a view of Polaris. So, the version currently under development has a new "Hop Align" tool, that allows you to center any star you can actually see (preferably not too far from the north), before the app "hops" you to the Celestial Pole, having used the reference star as a calibration point. Anyone interested in trying it out early, just pm me with an email to add you to the beta test list. Otherewise it should be in the public version soon enough

 

Thanks. Is it available for Android as well as Apple ?

I'm lucky - I can see Polaris all night from my back yard and have no problem finding it using the "pointer" stars in Ursa Major. My mounts are un-driven alt-azimuth so I don't need to align them.

 

 

 

 

[ecuador]

2 minutes ago, John said:

Thanks. Is it available for Android as well as Apple ?

I'm lucky - I can see Polaris all night from my back yard and have no problem finding it using the "pointer" stars in Ursa Major. My mounts are un-driven alt-azimuth so I don't need to align them.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, no Android for the foreseeable future. My main phone is an Android, but I've never developed for the platform...
No, you definitely don't need to polar align your mounts  

[wulfrun]

29 minutes ago, John said:

I'm lucky - I can see Polaris all night from my back yard...

You'll have to excuse the pedant in me...if you can see it, it would be there all night I'd hope (weather-permitting) 🙂

(I couldn't resist, abolutely no offence meant)

[John]

4 minutes ago, wulfrun said:

You'll have to excuse the pedant in me...if you can see it, it would be there all night I'd hope (weather-permitting) 🙂

(I couldn't resist, abolutely no offence meant)

No offense taken at all ! 🤣

It was a daft comment for me to make

It must be the couple of glasses of wine I had with supper talking !

[Stu]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

Being a dinosaur,  I'm at a loss as to how app's and gadgets can make finding Polaris in a polar scope any easier. But from my dinosaur perspective, I've always found it very easy to align Polaris providing the scope and counterweight are not attached to the mount. It just makes manipulating the axis much easier when its just the mount body that needs adjusting.

I think the app is designed to allow you to accurately polar align, by telling exactly where to position Polaris in the polar scope, not how to find Polaris in the first place. Us visual observers don’t really need to be that accurate so it’s probably not that relevant. However, I don’t see a big deal about using an app to make life a bit easier, you don’t need to keep looking at the phone after it is done so it won’t affect dark adaptation.

[ian_bird]

3 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I had a group of highly experienced imagers from the south of England who struggled to find Polaris at our dark site precisely because it wasn't 'all on its own!'

Guilty as charged. At Olly's place I took one look up at the dark sky (my first look after Monique's sumptuous meal)  and basically panicked. I don't think I have ever seen so many stars!

"Olly!" I hollered. "Help!!!".

Fortunately Olly is a jolly nice chap and is more than happy to help neophytes find their feet. And Polaris.

As I recall - we held a laser pointer against the mount rail* - and Olly Eyeballed it.

Given that we ended up with an incredible Andromeda Galaxy for our efforts (OK - Olly's efforts) - I would call that a win.

 

* not recommended in the UK or anywhere there might be low flying aircraft.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by ian_bird

[ian_bird]

Double post. Sorry.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by ian_bird

[Paul M]

Prior to getting my head lost up my backside with this imaging lark I used a very rough polar alignment process to achieve entirely usable Synscan GoTo performance for visual use.

I knew the sky long before I had a usable telescope so finding Polaris was never an issue.  My back yard is flat, firm grass. I plonk the mount facing towards Polaris, Maybe crouch just to eyeball the mount head. Then I mount and balance the scope. No point polar aligning an unweighted and unbalanced mount on grass, it can settle unevenly during and after being loaded. Then I look through the Polar scope and Polaris is usually (always!) in the field of view. For visual GoTo's I just adjust to get Polaris near the center of the field of view - not a care in the world for apps and hour angles!  And it works.

For my activities relating to imaging I do at least doff my cap to HA. No point in killing a good night trying to perfect HA visually unless your polar scope is collimated. So having got Polaris "near enough" in the Polar Scope I'll run through PHD2's Polar Drift Align utility. Last time I ran that it reported that my rough visual attempt had been 20 something minutes of arc off 🤪. Must Try Harder! It took about 10 mins to get it under 2.

 

 

 

 

 

[ollypenrice]

10 hours ago, ian_bird said:

Guilty as charged. At Olly's place I took one look up at the dark sky (my first look after Monique's sumptuous meal)  and basically panicked. I don't think I have ever seen so many stars!

"Olly!" I hollered. "Help!!!".

Fortunately Olly is a jolly nice chap and is more than happy to help neophytes find their feet. And Polaris.

As I recall - we held a laser pointer against the mount rail* - and Olly Eyeballed it.

Given that we ended up with an incredible Andromeda Galaxy for our efforts (OK - Olly's efforts) - I would call that a win.

 

* not recommended in the UK or anywhere there might be low flying aircraft.

 

Actually I wasn't thinking of you, Ian, but others have been surprised in the same way. I think the trick we did with the laser was probably to shine it through the polarscope while looking up. This brilliant idea wasn't mine, it was dreamed up by a Belgian guest, Bernd Adams. It saves a lot of bending and grovelling but it does require you to be able to see and recognize Polaris. The idea is just to be sure that Polaris will be the bright star in the finder once you do get down on your knees.

The usual caveats regarding appropriate use of lasers apply.

Olly

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Actually I wasn't thinking of you, Ian, but others have been surprised in the same way. I think the trick we did with the laser was probably to shine it through the polarscope while looking up. This brilliant idea wasn't mine, it was dreamed up by a Belgian guest, Bernd Adams. It saves a lot of bending and grovelling but it does require you to be able to see and recognize Polaris. The idea is just to be sure that Polaris will be the bright star in the finder once you do get down on your knees.

The usual caveats regarding appropriate use of lasers apply.

Olly

So you literally shine the laser pointer through the polar scope, Olly?

”Bending and grovelling”? That’s my usual posture. It’s how I got so many Taks 👍

[DaveL59]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Actually I wasn't thinking of you, Ian, but others have been surprised in the same way. I think the trick we did with the laser was probably to shine it through the polarscope while looking up. This brilliant idea wasn't mine, it was dreamed up by a Belgian guest, Bernd Adams. It saves a lot of bending and grovelling but it does require you to be able to see and recognize Polaris. The idea is just to be sure that Polaris will be the bright star in the finder once you do get down on your knees.

The usual caveats regarding appropriate use of lasers apply.

Olly

Is there a special trick to collimating the laser to the polar scope Olly?

[Neil H]

14 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Being a dinosaur,  I'm at a loss as to how app's and gadgets can make finding Polaris in a polar scope any easier. But from my dinosaur perspective, I've always found it very easy to align Polaris providing the scope and counterweight are not attached to the mount. It just makes manipulating the axis much easier when its just the mount body that needs adjusting.

Hi I do find it easy to look up and see Polaris , but were the app comes in to its own is this time of year I can't set up on the lawn so stuck on the patio so now the house is blocking Polaris , so I use the app to adjust the mount works for visual not good enough for imaging , in the summer I am the caravan in darker skies I can set up day time to do solar then ready for the night . The app works hand in hand with old school alignment it gets you very close when you can't see Polaris but once Polaris is out it's in the polar scope ready for fine adjustment

Edited February 8, 2021 by Neil H

[kens]

Can't see Polaris to polar align? You folks from the northern hemisphere have it so bad 🙄

[ollypenrice]

1 hour ago, DaveL59 said:

Is there a special trick to collimating the laser to the polar scope Olly?

It's not necessary, Dave. The laser will be more or less directed by the optics working in reverse. Not perfectly, of course, but plenty good enough for our purposes here.

Olly

[Geoff Lister]

16 hours ago, John said:

When I used to go to club meets, I often had to confirm the name of a few brightish stars (not Polaris) to folks who were setting up their GOTO's

I use GoTo on several of my Az/Alt mounts, so polar alignment is not part of my setup process. When I was getting to grips with Synscan, I used Polaris as my first alignment star (Synscan suggested stars start at "A", so lots of button presses, up or down, to get to "P"), but, as Polaris is not a "bright" star, sometimes aligned on an adjacent one. I also found that Synscan suggested a second alignment star that was behind a roof, fence or tree, and, if accepted, required a restart on a first star. So, I went for "Brightest Star" 2-star, or planet + 2-star alignment, and to avoid problems with an "invisible" 2nd star, I spent some time with "Stellarium" and produced this crib-sheet table of 14 bright stars, visible from my back garden, at dusk, for the middle of each month of the year, and entered compass direction and azimuth angle for a few of the best. Auto-slew to Polaris, as the second star, helps to avoid confusion.

I also repeated the table for an hour before dawn. I got fed up with the spell checker, hence the red underlining.

For EQ mounts, it may be possible to roughly polar align, (compass & latitude), do a first star manual alignment on a bright star, and then an auto-slew to Polaris as the 2nd. When Polaris is in the correct position on the polarscope, restart alignment.

Geoff