New and needing help!

[miketw]

Greetings all,

 I feel a bit embarrassed asking because so much info is out there, but too much info in the wrong hands is dangerous! so thought I should ask the experts.

My son doesn't stop talking about astronomy, for two years he has been using a basic telescope (National Geographic Premium 76/700) he would use it a lot more if he didn't have to depend on me so much, because of his needs I do need to be with him.

Awhile ago I was offered a second hand Celestron nexstar 4se I was so tempted to buy this because of the GoTo mount, I thought my son could use this on his own, it would also make him feel great using it by himself.

By the time I had done my homework on the 4se the item had been sold, I got so confused what to buy, one telescope led to another then another and so on.

I'm sure this is a very dull question to you all, can I ask your advice please, the GoTo mount is a must because of the simplicity to track and follow which my son has troubles doing, my son is a different boy when he is viewing the sky, if it wasn't for me saying we need to go indoors he would be out all night! even with heavy cloud cover he will be looking through the telescope.

I now have a far less budget then before (furloughed) just want to make sure what money I do spend it's not wasted.

I had no idea how technical and advanced telescopes are, any info pointing me in the right direction will make my son very happy.

My son name is Jaden and he says hello and thank you.

 

[vlaiv]

Hi to you and to Jaden and welcome to SGL.

We would love to help in choice of new telescope, but in order to do so - we would need a bit more information on your and your son's observing needs and expectations.

From what you've written, I'm tempted to recommend this telescope to you:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3893_Skywatcher-Skymax-102---GoTo-Maksutov-telescope-102-1300mm.html

But depending on your needs - maybe there will be something better for you.

 

[Zermelo]

Hello Mike (and Jaden), welcome to SGL.

As @vlaiv says, a bit more info would be useful.

Would you mostly be observing from your garden, or is there too much light pollution to do that?  If not, would you be driving somewhere else?  How much room do you have to store a telescope?  Would you be able to get from the storage location to the observing location without using stairs?  Does your son have a preference for looking at planets & moon, or galaxies/nebulae/clusters? (many telescopes are better at one or the other).

And it would be a big help if you could give a rough limit on the cost.

You might also like to look at this: https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/196278-what-can-i-expect-to-see/  if you think he has unrealistic expectations.

You mention GoTo, which I have and love, but you should be aware that it will add a significant amount to the price.

 

[Tiny Clanger]

1 hour ago, miketw said:

Greetings all,

 I feel a bit embarrassed asking because so much info is out there, but too much info in the wrong hands is dangerous! so thought I should ask the experts.

My son doesn't stop talking about astronomy, for two years he has been using a basic telescope (National Geographic Premium 76/700) he would use it a lot more if he didn't have to depend on me so much, because of his needs I do need to be with him.

Awhile ago I was offered a second hand Celestron nexstar 4se I was so tempted to buy this because of the GoTo mount, I thought my son could use this on his own, it would also make him feel great using it by himself.

By the time I had done my homework on the 4se the item had been sold, I got so confused what to buy, one telescope led to another then another and so on.

I'm sure this is a very dull question to you all, can I ask your advice please, the GoTo mount is a must because of the simplicity to track and follow which my son has troubles doing, my son is a different boy when he is viewing the sky, if it wasn't for me saying we need to go indoors he would be out all night! even with heavy cloud cover he will be looking through the telescope.

I now have a far less budget then before (furloughed) just want to make sure what money I do spend it's not wasted.

I had no idea how technical and advanced telescopes are, any info pointing me in the right direction will make my son very happy.

My son name is Jaden and he says hello and thank you.

 

Hi and welcome Mike and Jaden,

you are not wrong, the possibilities are endless, and the technology appears complex, but essentially all telescopes are an arrangement of lenses and/or mirrors , don't let them frighten you !

As others have said, the more information we have the better targeted our help can be, so if you answer Zermelo's  questions that will help.  I'll add one more of my own  how tall is Jaden ?   I don't ask how old he is :I'm an ex primary teacher, and I can read between the lines of what you say ....

Heather

[AlexK]

In my experienced opinion (I'm in the hobby from 8 years old age, also with the help of my father, all the way to professional astronomy and then back to advanced amateur, and I still remember everything 40+ years later), the GoTo is a waste of money for you, and the interest killer for your son, as it seems he is very young or otherwise not prepared for the deep technicalities a GoTo mount impose on the unprepared owner. Especialy having you mentioned he is obsessed with the telescope even when cloudy. I would highly recommend postponing the new telescope purchase and instead would strongly recommend to get him a decent Android smartphone or an Android tablet (avoid Apple products as they are dumb) along with some nice Planetarium astronomy software on it and some popular astronomy books in the digital format. That would do him MUCH more good than any GoTo gizmo.

By the way, a very similar 76x700 reflector (Russian TAL "Alcor") was my third telescope upgrade in 1983 which I bought on the first ever money I earned myself gardening for neighbors all summer 

Edited February 2, 2021 by AlexK

[Tiny Clanger]

1 hour ago, miketw said:

My son doesn't stop talking about astronomy, for two years he has been using a basic telescope (National Geographic Premium 76/700) he would use it a lot more if he didn't have to depend on me so much, because of his needs I do need to be with him.

Just for reference, is this the 'scope you have been using so far (or something similar )  ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/National-Geographic-700-Reflector-Telescope/dp/B007WRYAVE

If so is Jaden happy with the format, looking in the side , and presumably standing to do so ?

Heather

[jonathan]

+1 for giving Goto a miss, unless you can buy the all-singing-all-dancing does-absolutely-everything-for-you which also costs-a-flipping-fortune, then it is going to cause a lot of disappointment for those times when it just doesn't work, or it takes an hour or more to overcome some finnicky setup woes.  Even if you did buy that fancy do-everything Goto, if (or when) that refuses to work properly then you'd likely have even less clue about how to make it go (the more parts it has, the more there is to go wrong).  I've owned a Celestron NexStar Goto, I know they can work well but also they can just not work for no obvious reason, which is deeply frustrating especially for a new-comer.  I now purely use tracking-only, though I have to say even that could be confusing as some of the handsets have button combinations required to set different tracking modes, if you're in the wrong mode then it won't work as expected and it's back to trying to understand the manual by red torch light in the freezing cold.  Not that I want to put you off spending or anything, just be aware that you might still have to spend a lot of time out there with your son even with Goto.

Just looking up the National Geographic Premium 76/700, it looks to be on a basic EQ mount.  I'd say you might have an easier time using an Alt/Az mount, which works just like a camera tripod (up/down, left/right), and if you go for something perhaps around the 100mm - 150mm size (same type of telescope - a reflector) then you'd be able to see a whole lot more than with the 76mm.  Books and charts, a planisphere (even if it's just you using them), and a couple of decent eyepieces and you should be set!  Visual astronomy starts with the Mk I Eyeball, if you know where to look there's a lot to see before you even break out any optical aids, and knowing some simple facts about what you're looking at can be as inspiring as the stars themselves.

Edited February 2, 2021 by jonathan

[Tiny Clanger]

Reading the OP , I suspect that Jaden will not be left alone outside at any time, and is not able to operate a telescope independently.

I'm not a fan of go to myself, preferring a manual mount and charts etc, but it's my suspicion that it may be the tracking which is important here : I'm guessing a scenario  where dad has to get the target in the eyepiece, and then Jaden takes his turn to view, by which point the target has drifted, and dad has to step in again.

I may be wrong about the situation , but if that is the case, I can see why the OP says tracking is a must for them.

 

[miketw]

Hi all, I'm overwhelmed with your help and can't thank you enough.

Jaden is 10 he is very able doing many things once he has been shown how to, but he does have limits to progress, my reason for the GoTO mount is for him to enjoy himself actually seeing something! 9 out of 10 he will not be seeing anything, when I do get something in focus for him it's priceless seeing his excitement, Tiny Clanger you are spot on!

All observing is done from the garden.

For two years Jaden has show the same excitement viewing the sky, his youtube history is astronomy, stars, planets etc and I feel I'm holding him back from viewing more.

His dream is to see Saturns rings and deep space, the pictures he shows me Saturn is tiny but Jaden seem very happy, I'm not looking for an all singing and dancing telescope, something that is cheap (if possible) bit of an allrounder!

I was hoping to buy something second hand that's affordable on a low budget, didn't realise second hand telescope hold their price, I guess if you have it for two plus years like his (National Geographic Premium 76/700) it's good value for money.

Michael & Jaden 

[Zermelo]

OK.

So we should distinguish between GoTo and tracking.

Tracking (a motor drive) will keep the telescope pointing to an object once you have found it.  It is useful when you are sharing the view between more than one observer, especially when you need a high magnification and the target moves out of view quickly.  On an equatorial (EQ) mount, you could achieve this with a motor on just one of the axes, whereas with an alt-azimuth mount you would need motors on both.   However, as per the comments above, the alt-az is easier to get the hang of for beginners.  GoTo capability adds to the tracking by automatically finding the objects for you, and I understand why you find this appealing.  Against this are the points made above - that it can be complicated to learn and temperamental to use, that it costs extra and that it can take away the aspect of "learning the sky".

I think tracking motors at least will make your observing easier, so that you can switch without losing the target, and so that Jaden can observe for an extended period without intervention.  As for Goto - are we saying that dad would be finding the targets, so either he needs to learn to navigate the sky himself (no GoTo) or he needs to manage the tech (with GoTo)?  Bear in mind also that GoTo isn't perfect - it usually puts the target somewhere within a widefield eyepiece, but you often have some work to do, depending on the type of target (planets and other brighter objects will be obvious, but others may be difficult to spot at first).

I'm hoping that some more of the experienced observers will chip in too, this kind of situation may have been discussed before.

 

[Tiny Clanger]

Saturn's rings should be do-able (not at the moment mind, but when the planet is better placed (July , unless you let on that it can be seen in the dawn sky before then, in which case you are going to get woken up at all hours and dragged outside ... don't tell him !) A tiny but distinct ringed planet was the first thing I saw with it when I bought my first proper 'scope. , which is a 150mm reflector.

Also some deep  sky objects like the Pleiades and Orion nebula can be satisfactory targets in any telescope, including the one you already have, I think with a bit of help you could get a lot more out of the 'scope you have while waiting for something good to come up within your budget.  I'll post some links and suggestions later ,you have some work to do to catch up with your son ...  🙂  (BTW I see Zermelo has just  posted something similar as I type !)

I've no experience of go to/ tracking mounts whatsoever, so can't give any advice on them, I have seen folk on here say the little table top virtuoso dobsonians

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/heritage/skywatcher-heritage-114p-virtuoso.html

are OK for children to use , but the next price point at which you find such a facility is around £300 , and all of these 'scopes will be very basic models , decent kit is not cheap (or if it is cheap , it's probably very poor quality)  Have a browse here https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes.html to get an idea of prices.

There has also been some discussion on here about 'push to' set ups where you use a 'phone app and a smartphone mounted on your telescope tube to guide you to manually  line the 'scope up with objects , again I've only read about it so leave it up to folk who have experience of using such a system, but it might be a minimal outlay partial solution for you.

The problem with second hand is that at the moment supplies of new 'scopes  from Chinese factories have been hit by the pandemic just like everything else, consequently used stuff gets snapped up very fast, and because of the demand,  prices asked can be quite high. Still, if you get an idea of what to look for (or to avoid) here, you can be prepared for whatever might pop  up as available locally.

Heather

 

[Girders]

Hi Michael & Jaden,

As others have suggested, tracking  is a huge benefit for anyone who will be having "shared" viewing sessions with adults or any age/ability of child.  The fact you can set the scope on a target and the object will stay in view for several minutes makes such a difference (speaking as a dad doings sessions with a now 7 year old for the last 3 years).  My first scope was a small  tabletop dobsonian mount but with motorised tracking (skywatcher Heritage Virtuoso) at around £180 if your budget would stretch to that.  Comes in 2 versions - 114p Newtonian or 90 Mak.  Both have advantages/disadvantages but would do what you're after on a good night - tiny but clear rings of Saturn and at least a hint of the main bands of Jupiter.  Simple set up for each session will give fairly reliable tracking for several minutes.  Full go-to capability can be added with the Skywatcher wifi adapter (£50ish) along with a smartphone but for it to be accurate it does require time/effort to align things each time.

Good Luck with whatever you end up going for.

[Tiny Clanger]

OK, as threatened, some low cost and free ways to get dad's manual scope guiding capability upgraded :

First, a book which gives a good clear explanation of what will be in the skies of Britain & Ireland in 2021  if it is priced at £6 wait a day or two, before xmas it fluctuated down as far as £3 on occasion.

A free, online, monthly offering which does a similar job is the 'sky notes' from Whitby astro soc here    there are plenty of similar sites, that is one of the best set out ones I've seen.   Plus Whitby is a lovely place  🙂

The Loughton list  is a very helpful pdf of targets you might look for, with helpful notes about finding them (and what exactly you are looking at) It divides into bronze, silver & gold categories , bronze objects are the  easiest to see.

A shorter list , but (as the name suggests) for the UK winter is the two part Moore Winter Marathon here  and   here  It's an old list, but all holds true except for the information about where to look for the planet, which has moved on ! The MWM is less well illustrated than the Loughton List, but if you want something to actually print out and tick off things seen, it's easier on the ink & paper .

Something which will be useful to you and Jaden too is planetarium software : there are many online, downloadable and apps available, I like the free  stellarium which is  online    https://stellarium-web.org/    and also has a downloadable version you can use on a laptop or tablet off line . Any such app will be able to show you the sky at your location, in any dieection as you pan around, and at the current time (as well as enabling you to roll the clock forward and see what will be visible tomorrow or next week ) You can switch labels, constellation lines and pictures on and off , click on objects to get names, and switch it to a red light view to  preserve your eye's dark adaptation so you can use it at the telescope.  It will help you identify what is where  !

That should keep you busy for a while !

Heather

 

 

 

 

 

[miketw]

I had no idea GoTo and tracking are two different things, I was under the impression the GoTo tracked as well.

The sky watcher heritage 114p virtuoso looks perfect, would it be better to buy the wifi add-on used with an app on Jaden's iPad or the hand held GoTo device?

Thank you Heather for the link, it's a good price but unfortunately out of stock, where it's in stock the price is double, new stock is expected later February .

My only concern is being a table mount and not on a tripod, Jaden for sure will crash into the table, I'm hoping I can modify his tripod from his National Geographic Premium 76/700

Thank you all so much for your time and knowledge, can't thank you all enough.

Michael & Jaden

[Neil H]

Hi goto will track and find targets for you ,but and it's a big but you need to be able to set it up , it will need polar alignment then a star alignment , some people jump to a goto as first scope and then find it hard to set up , it can be done or you can get a motorised mount that will track 

Also your need to think of size of you put an 200 on an EQ goto mount it's large the eyepiece will be high up on some targets  with the tripod on its lowest the eyepiece most of the time  is about my eye level but I am 6 foot if my wife wants to look it's hard to rotate so it's possible for her to look into she is just over 5 foot a refractor will be lower but may need extension on the mount so over all  size is large with a lot of parts to set up , a manual dob may be the better way to go the eyepiece will be lower easy to use and set up and your get more aperture for your money bresser make nice dobs with a really nice mount and because it has rings you can balance the scope better

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-6-inch-planetary-dobsonian.html

Edited February 3, 2021 by Neil H

[Tiny Clanger]

3 hours ago, miketw said:

I had no idea GoTo and tracking are two different things, I was under the impression the GoTo tracked as well.

The sky watcher heritage 114p virtuoso looks perfect, would it be better to buy the wifi add-on used with an app on Jaden's iPad or the hand held GoTo device?

Thank you Heather for the link, it's a good price but unfortunately out of stock, where it's in stock the price is double, new stock is expected later February .

My only concern is being a table mount and not on a tripod, Jaden for sure will crash into the table, I'm hoping I can modify his tripod from his National Geographic Premium 76/700

Thank you all so much for your time and knowledge, can't thank you all enough.

Michael & Jaden

As I understand it (i.e. not very well, so please someone correct me if I'm wrong, I like to learn from my mistakes !) just tracking alone means the 'scope mount has a motor which slowly rotates the 'scope to keep what you already found in view. All you need to do is line the mount up (I presume to point north )

Go-to is more complex, it needs you to set it up accurately :  you have to tell it what direction it is pointing and whereabouts it is (by giving it your location, and pointing it at some stars and telling it what star is pointing at so it can find them in it's software and orient itself . Obviously this means you need to I.D. and accurately line up some stars yourself ... . It uses this (plus the time) to compute where in the sky an object is, and tries to use it's motors to shift the 'scope to point exactly there. Obviously the more expensive the mount mechanism, the more precise it will be, the better the 'brain' will be, and the more accurately it will point to the object. A go to mount will also track.

Just tracking is going to be a cheaper thing to incorporate than go-to & tracking, and a great deal easier to set up quickly.

As for the table top nature of the little skywatcher virtuoso I linked to, read down the bullet points, it says "Telescope/Mount attachable to most Prosumer tripods via 3/8” thread" .so if your current tripod has a standard photo tripod to head screw you could put the whole new 'scope on it . If not you may be able to bodge something with a suitable bolt ... failing that, photo tripods are much easier to find second hand than telescopes !

The FLO site reliably has reasonable prices, and with telescopes as rare as rocking horse droppings at the mo., some profiteering is going on elsewhere. But I'd say order from FLO, get the current price and wait (which will be going up they said, as a new price from the wholesaler skywatcher is due soon) If you decide go to is something you need, you can add a handset later, maybe keep an eye open for a used one . If the tracking facility turns out to be all you need, you've saved yourself quite a few ££s .

FLO operate a waiting list by date order, so an early order gets you a place in the queue for when the next shipment arrives . They do charge your credit card when you order, but if for any reason at  all you change your mind before they sent the kit out, they will refund you immediately. I ordered a 'scope in the autumn and established all this in an e mail conversation. The are very helpful, you could do worse than drop them an email outlining your requirements and asking if they think the heritage virtuoso would be a good choice https://www.firstlightoptics.com/contact.html

Heather

 

[Zermelo]

Yes, unfortunately everywhere is very short of stock at the moment, and when they do get a delivery, most suppliers will just be allocating them to previous orders.

So for a lot of people it's a case of "working it from both ends" - having an idea about what you want/can afford, but also seeing just what's available.

With a lot of suppliers that's not always easy to tell from their websites, as they are often not dynamically linked to their stock control system; you end up phoning them up to be sure. FLO's system does apparently reflect their stock levels, and they even have an "in stock telescopes" page (though it's a very sorry affair at the moment). They do also sell returns in nearly-new condition for slightly discounted prices, so you might want to keep a look out here.

 

[miketw]

After many calls and emails it seems the Skywatcher Heritage 114P Virtuoso will not be back in stock until April, FLO are hoping for late March

I've been looking at other options, one in particular is the Celestron Motor Drive, I believe this item tracks?

Will I be able to fit the motor drive to Jaden's National Geographic Premium 76/700?

I'm slightly up against time as Jaden is now back in hospital, I'm hoping this will be a quick fix until stocks are replenished.

Hoping to have something in place for Jaden return.

Michael

 

[Tiny Clanger]

31 minutes ago, miketw said:

After many calls and emails it seems the Skywatcher Heritage 114P Virtuoso will not be back in stock until April, FLO are hoping for late March

I've been looking at other options, one in particular is the Celestron Motor Drive, I believe this item tracks?

Will I be able to fit the motor drive to Jaden's National Geographic Premium 76/700?

I'm slightly up against time as Jaden is now back in hospital, I'm hoping this will be a quick fix until stocks are replenished.

Hoping to have something in place for Jaden return.

Michael

 

I understand your urgency, but don't want you to waste your money : yes, that motor tracks, but I think ( I'm making an educated guess here, having no direct experience of it) it will have specific fittings which only work with the Celestron mounts specified. There's a similar one which works only with skywatcher eq2 mounts

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/all-mounts-motors/ra-single-speed-motor-drive-for-eq-2.html

If your 'scope mount looks like the one I posted an amazon link to, that is an alt az mount anyway,  a single motor can only work to track on an equatorial mount I'm afraid.  If your telescope has a standard rail type fitting it would be possible to move it to a new mount, but I don't think it does.

I can't see any chance of getting something new any sooner than the dates FLO have quoted you : every UK retailer is in the same position, literally waiting for the ship to come in ... Perhaps your only chance of anything quicker is to trawl secondhand sales, keeping in mind the exact models of mount which can be used with the cheap celestron and skywatcher motors as add ons. 

If you see something which looks likely, come back here with exactly what it is, and I'm sure we can help with if it is likely to be worthwhile.

Heather

[wulfrun]

On 03/02/2021 at 10:25, miketw said:

I had no idea GoTo and tracking are two different things, I was under the impression the GoTo tracked as well.

The sky watcher heritage 114p virtuoso looks perfect, would it be better to buy the wifi add-on used with an app on Jaden's iPad or the hand held GoTo device?

Thank you Heather for the link, it's a good price but unfortunately out of stock, where it's in stock the price is double, new stock is expected later February .

My only concern is being a table mount and not on a tripod, Jaden for sure will crash into the table, I'm hoping I can modify his tripod from his National Geographic Premium 76/700

Thank you all so much for your time and knowledge, can't thank you all enough.

Michael & Jaden

Since I own one, I can confirm the Virtuoso can indeed be mounted on a suitable tripod. You'll need something beefy though, since it's not lightweight. The Virtuoso will track an object once you've found it but it will only track at sidereal rate. This means it'll follow "fixed" things like stars, nebulae etc but it'll drift off for planets and the Moon - though not too quickly in reality. You can upgrade it to a full got-to with the synscan, although I haven't so can't comment on how well that works. In tracking mode, you just need to set your location once and after that you need to align it north-south each time you switch it on.

[happy-kat]

The virtuoso works well with the synscan handset and alternatively works with the skywatcher wifi dongle if that is preferred.

The handset or dongle bring goto capabilities to the mount and with that different tracking speeds.

You do need to be able to learn and identify key alignment stars for goto.

[W0nderste]

What about getting a tracking mount like the skywatcher GTI or Skywatcher discovery.  You can fit your existing telescope on it, and then upgrade the telescope later when stock is better and you have a better idea if what you want

 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/telescopes-in-stock/sky-watcher-star-discovery-wifi-az-goto-mount-tripod.html

[Tiny Clanger]

27 minutes ago, W0nderste said:

What about getting a tracking mount like the skywatcher GTI or Skywatcher discovery.  You can fit your existing telescope on it, and then upgrade the telescope later when stock is better and you have a better idea if what you want

 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/telescopes-in-stock/sky-watcher-star-discovery-wifi-az-goto-mount-tripod.html

Have a look at the OPs telescope (I linked to it in an earlier post) It does not have a standard mount. I doubt the tripod does either.

[Tiny Clanger]

Right, I've had a little trawl round for anything in stock anywhere ... Bristol Cameras (I've bought things from them , they seem OK) have a couple of things which might fit the bill and appear to be in stock (but ask them before getting excited, the website may lag behind their stock and sales ) :

https://www.bristolcameras.co.uk/p-celestron-astromaster-130eq-with-motor-drive-telescope.htm

I have no idea if the astromaster 130 eq is any good as a telescope, but it appears to be in stock, and has a motor drive included

shame this identical second hand one is in Derby and the seller specifies collection, but maybe you could arrange something ?

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/361567-celestron-astromaster-eq-130/

And finally, Bristol Cameras again, but not the slightly bigger reflector , the smaller maksutov virtuoso 90 on the virtuoso mount

https://www.bristolcameras.co.uk/p-skywatcher-heritage-90-virtuoso.htm#Specification

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Tiny Clanger

[Ricochet]

FLO currently have the following two scopes on their offers page if your budget stretches to either. The Mak is more of a lunar/planetary scope and the short refractor is better at low power, wide field views (i.e. not lunar/planetary).

Nexstar 90 SLT

Startravel 102 GTe