Best all rounder - I'm going crazy again :D

[vlaiv]

This really bugs me quite a bit - you know, what scope to choose that will do it all.

Good for planetary observing, good for DSOs, good for planetary imaging, good for regular imaging. Cheap, or rather as affordable as possible.

No scope can do it, right? Well, I have a candidate for it, and I just realized that equipment manufacturers hold us back

My candidate is - 6" F/5 newtonian on EQ5 or rather EQ5 equivalent that "has AZ capability".

When I said that manufacturers hold us back - I meant - EQ5 mount can't be converted to AZ mount easily. It requires modding. Why on earth didn't they create wedge that can be put at 90 degrees for EQ5?

I don't particularly like newtonians on EQ mount due to eyepiece and finder positions and constant need for rotating the tube. Solution - obviously AZ mount for visual.

With that in place and simple motor for tracking - we would have it all.

6" of aperture for planetary observing and imaging. Even with larger secondary that enables astrophotograpy - we could still keep central obstruction below 30%. Low enough focal length for wide field observing. Something like Aero ED35 - would fit whole M31 in FOV while still keeping exit pupil at 7mm. At F/5 it won't be too demanding for photography.

750mm of FL is flexible enough to capture both nebulae and small galaxies. 6" is just enough as entry to serious DSO observing.

Alternative is AZ-EQ5 mount - but that is not really budget option, is it? Also, tracking motor is not upgrade for that mount - like on regular EQ5 that costs x3-x4 less than AZ-EQ in non powered version.

[John]

My first proper scope was a UK made 6" F/6 newtonian. It had a good quality primary mirror (made by David Hinds). I thought that was an excellent "all rounder" scope. Mine was on an equatorial mount but it was possible to get the newtonian on an alt-az mount:

The one disadvantage with that model was that it came with a 1.25 inch only focuser. Later ones might have had 2 inch capability though ?

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by John

[happy-kat]

I gather you can put an eq1 in a fake altaz mode, is that not possible with an eq5?

[vlaiv]

Just now, happy-kat said:

I gather you can put an eq1 in a fake altaz mode, is that not possible with an eq5?

It is possible after modding the mount - not something novice astronomers will likely do as it involves some "metal works" - filing away part of the mount.

I think that much better solution would be to actually redesign wedge on EQ5 - making it more versatile mount.

Alternative is to take SkyTee 2 and turn that into EQ mount by placing it on a wedge (since it shares parts with EQ5 and can be fitted with motor drives for EQ5). Not sure how cost effective solution that would be.

[vlaiv]

The way I see it, maybe cheapest option would be to get SkyTee II mount head and EQ5 mount - to share tripod.

Then use EQ5 for imaging and SkyTee II for observing? Pity there is no cheap mount in this class (£600 or so) that can do both, have a goto and carry 150PDS or similar scope.

Just thought of something else as well - DIY dob mount for the scope and visual?

It does seem like a lot of possible options - except cheap "out of the box" - do it all one (that would be there with EQ5 that can be adjusted for 90° latitude).

[happy-kat]

The cheapest option I think is the new mount with the starquest range. It's a head that can be in altaz or eq and can have a motor fitted in eq mode. It's not as heavy weight as and eq5 but it's in the beginner catchment. I think it's used in the bundles.

[vlaiv]

1 minute ago, happy-kat said:

The cheapest option I think is the new mount with the starquest range. It's a head that can be in altaz or eq and can have a motor fitted in eq mode. It's not as heavy weight as and eq5 but it's in the beginner catchment. I think it's used in the bundles.

That would certainly be cheapest option - but it would not be "do it all" option.

Some people really have all around requirements - they want to look at both planets and DSOs and the want to image both planets and DSOs.

We really have only couple of mounts that can do that in economy range:

- something like AzGTI - that can work in both EQ mode and AZ mode and is already motorized. Problem of course being weight carrying capacity.

- something like EQ3 - again weight carrying capacity, absence of AZ mode out of the box and poorer DSO imaging performance

- something like EQ5 - now we are in range of decent mount capacity, and I would say EQ5 is really starter mount for all round imaging. Sure both Eq3 and AzGti class mounts can do imaging - but that is for wide field imaging. EQ5 can do both wide field and medium power imaging.

For that reason and the fact that EQ5 can be upgraded with either single motor or dual motors that have guide port or full fledged goto system, or you can purchase goto version out of the box - makes it ideal do it all mount - except for missing AZ arrangement that would be beneficial for visual.

I would say that another good option for the scope would be good 4" ED doublet - around F/7. Problem is of course that such telescope will be outperformed by 6" newtonian in almost all aspects except portability, widest of the fields of view and DSO imaging. In any case - both scopes are pushing 5-6Kg with additional equipment and that is overkill for AzGTI, and up there on the limit for EQ3.

There are lighter scopes - but they will be just poorer choice in one aspect or another. That and the fact that 6" F/5 costs about x3-x4 less than good 4" ED doublet (x2 less than okayish 4" ED doublet with some residual CA) - really make it ideal choice.

Scaling it down can be done "1 step" - that would be 130PDS and possibly EQ3 mount. 130mm of aperture is still capable of being all rounder - it will be good on planetary (although not many people do planetary images with 130PDS) and it is confirmed good performer on DSO - both visual (in its class) and imaging.

There is option for further reduction in size apart from mentioned 4" ED - which is actually step up in weight and considerable step up in cost. There are 114mm and smaller newtonians - but they have 1.25" focuser and there are no coma correctors for that format. All fast doublet scopes below 4" are really not good planetary performers - there are no good planetary images below 4" in general. Also, less than 4" of aperture is going to limit DSO observing capability.

 

[Paz]

Personally I would vote for either a 4" f7 refractor with an az mount or an 8" f6 reflector on a dobsonian mount, depending on ones tolerance for weight/size of the set up.

In my case I think a newtonian on an AZ mount would end up competing with other medium sized scopes like sct's where you can get more aperture in a shorter tube, and that is what makes me end up back at a dobsonian if going for a reflector.

[vlaiv]

27 minutes ago, Paz said:

Personally I would vote for either a 4" f7 refractor with an az mount or an 8" f6 reflector on a dobsonian mount, depending on ones tolerance for weight/size of the set up.

In my case I think a newtonian on an AZ mount would end up competing with other medium sized scopes like sct's where you can get more aperture in a shorter tube, and that is what makes me end up back at a dobsonian if going for a reflector.

You do understand that one of requirements is imaging? Or rather two of them - planetary imaging and DSO imaging. There are simply people that want it all in one scope and I'm always torn what to recommend. We often end up explaining that there is no scope to do it all, but above 6" F/5 on EQ5 class mount that could possibly turn into dual mode - both Eq and Az with appropriate wedge - would come extremely close to being able to do it all scope (and by that - I mean do it all very good).

For purely visual - I could not agree more. Have 8" f/6 dob and looking to get 4" f/7 frac as well

 

[Tiny Clanger]

2 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

There are simply people that want it all in one scope and I'm always torn what to recommend. We often end up explaining that there is no scope to do it all

 

It's the astro equivalent of going to a car forum and asking what vehicle to buy .

"I'd like it to be good off road, must be a 4X4, new not second hand, a nice metallic blue in colour, big enough to carry the family plus dogs, be extremely fuel efficient, very fast on the motorway, and it should be easily converted to electric power if I choose . Oh, and I'd like to race it in formula 1 eventually . I have £100 to spend .... " 😀

[Paz]

27 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

You do understand that one of requirements is imaging? Or rather two of them - planetary imaging and DSO imaging. There are simply people that want it all in one scope and I'm always torn what to recommend. We often end up explaining that there is no scope to do it all, but above 6" F/5 on EQ5 class mount that could possibly turn into dual mode - both Eq and Az with appropriate wedge - would come extremely close to being able to do it all scope (and by that - I mean do it all very good).

For purely visual - I could not agree more. Have 8" f/6 dob and looking to get 4" f/7 frac as well

 

Apologies I missed the imaging bit, that does complicate things and I admit I know nothing about imaging!

 

[vlaiv]

19 minutes ago, Paz said:

Apologies I missed the imaging bit, that does complicate things and I admit I know nothing about imaging!

 

Don't worry about it - it is after all just a case of cloud sickness. Have not seen clear sky in weeks and what else to do then to browse web for telescopes and contemplate setups and their usability

[Zermelo]

42 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

It's the astro equivalent of going to a car forum and asking what vehicle to buy .

"I'd like it to be good off road, must be a 4X4, new not second hand, a nice metallic blue in colour, big enough to carry the family plus dogs, be extremely fuel efficient, very fast on the motorway, and it should be easily converted to electric power if I choose . Oh, and I'd like to race it in formula 1 eventually . I have £100 to spend .... " 😀

Hehe.

Since I've been on this forum (and seen quite a few "what to buy?" questions to follow on from my own) I've thought it might be useful to have a "first telescope buyer decision tree". You know the kind of thing, a flow chart that asks you various questions and leads you in different directions depending on the answers. Eventually you arrive at an endpoint that either gives you a specific recommendation, or else a "sorry, nothing available in your price bracket, rethink your requirements". The "recommendations" could be either generic instrument types or actual models (but it would then need keeping up to date).

I don't have the knowledge to construct such a thing, perhaps someone else might like to try. I did a quick google that didn't turn up anything. If the chart included hotlinks to a supplier's website it might generate some sales?

[Tiny Clanger]

6 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

Hehe.

Since I've been on this forum (and seen quite a few "what to buy?" questions to follow on from my own) I've thought it might be useful to have a "first telescope buyer decision tree". You know the kind of thing, a flow chart that asks you various questions and leads you in different directions depending on the answers. Eventually you arrive at an endpoint that either gives you a specific recommendation, or else a "sorry, nothing available in your price bracket, rethink your requirements". The "recommendations" could be either generic instrument types or actual models (but it would then need keeping up to date).

I don't have the knowledge to construct such a thing, perhaps someone else might like to try. I did a quick google that didn't turn up anything. If the chart included hotlinks to a supplier's website it might generate some sales?

Aha ! There's an idea .for a dull cloudy night ..

I've found and used a few 'lucid charts' in the past , https://www.lucidchart.com/pages/flowcharts

here's an e.g. https://www.lucidchart.com/pages/flowcharts/stargazing-what-am-i-looking-at