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Star of Bethlehem ???


Skipper Billy

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3 minutes ago, saac said:

I think you are right Nigella, the notion of the adoration of Christ by the shepherds and magi was popularised by artists and poets.  I was always taught that the visit by the magi happened some time after the birth by as much as a few years.  Makes identifying the star even more complicated :) 

Jim

It certainly does Jim.

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57 minutes ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

All this talk of wise men following a wandering star to the baby Jesus made me think I would share a recent Christmas card. 
Recieved from an unlikely source, a C of E Vicar and his wife. I think it is the final statement that me laugh out loud.

781531E9-EB50-4EF9-AB7A-0D205F2EF589.jpeg

Very true, lol.

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10 hours ago, Nigella Bryant said:

Comet's of naked eye visibility don't last six months as far as I know. Usually only whilst nearing the sun. Unless of course it was a very large brilliant comet. But that would surely have been recorded by Chinese star gazers of the time. It's intriguing none the less.

This assumes that any such event actually occurred at the time.  It is more likely (in my view) that it became a myth from an event that did happen but was probably uncorrelated.   Hence it is quite possible that the star being referred to was observed by Chinese star gazers - it is just that it was much later or much earlier than the mythological timeframe.

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1 hour ago, Whirlwind said:

This assumes that any such event actually occurred at the time.  It is more likely (in my view) that it became a myth from an event that did happen but was probably uncorrelated.   Hence it is quite possible that the star being referred to was observed by Chinese star gazers - it is just that it was much later or much earlier than the mythological timeframe.

Given that it is such a simple story that would have been of no peculiar significance to those close to it in time and that it survived for over 2000 years then I am inclined to to think it is likely (in my view) that it reflects a historical event. I agree that the myth surrounding it has been caught up and confused by tradition, medieval art and literature. For example as Nigella pointed out, the adoration of the Magi most likely happened some time after the birth.  Some bible historians believe the adoration would most likely have happened as much as 2 years after the birth to make sense of the story of Herod's massacre on the innocents (male child up to 2 years old) .  Personally, I don't believe  that any star/conjunction/planet/comet combination, whatever it was, would have necessarily had needed to be visible nor followed for the duration of the magis travels. More likely whatever it was appearing in the later stages of their travels  - dialogue and interactions with local communities taking over  as they neared the end.  How do you convey that over 2000 years of changing perspective and development of a global church through changing trends in art  and literature?  You simplify the story !  Just as we have been told throughout the pandemic - keep the message simple and people will remember it !  I'm out again tonight to try and photograph it, forecast looks we may be cloud free - not looking forward to climbing that hill again though  :) 

 

jim

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It all seems a bit odd that these wise men from the east saw a star in the east and followed it to Jerusalem, which it should be noted is west of where they supposedly set out from.   From Jerusalem they followed the star to Bethlehem, which incidentally is south of Jerusalem, till it came to rest over the place they were looking for. Now we all know neither stars nor planets ‘come to rest’ over anywhere. So whatever it was it wasn’t a conventional celestial object. So speculation as to whether it was a star, supernova, comet or planetary conjunction is irrelevant because taking the description at face value it was none of these. 

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12 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

It all seems a bit odd that these wise men from the east saw a star in the east and followed it to Jerusalem, which it should be noted is west of where they supposedly set out from.   From Jerusalem they followed the star to Bethlehem, which incidentally is south of Jerusalem, till it came to rest over the place they were looking for. Now we all know neither stars nor planets ‘come to rest’ over anywhere. So whatever it was it wasn’t a conventional celestial object. So speculation as to whether it was a star, supernova, comet or planetary conjunction is irrelevant because taking the description at face value it was none of these. 

Yes but again stars were and still are used in navigation irrespective of not settling anywhere and guiding travelers over  far greater distances: :)     The danger is taking a  2000 year old story at face value and holding it to be legally tight.   Let's just enjoy the  tradition and get out their and spot it.  There has been enough gloom around this year, the conjunction should put a smile on our faces :) 

Jim 

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5 minutes ago, saac said:

Yes but again stars were and still are used in navigation irrespective of not settling anywhere and guiding travelers over  far greater distances: :)     The danger is taking a  2000 year old story at face value and holding it to be legally tight.   Let's just enjoy the  tradition and get out their and spot it.  There has been enough gloom around this year, the conjunction should put a smile on our faces :) 

Jim 

Yes, definitely Jim, enjoy it for the pure delight of the wonder's of the night sky (well, and day time sky in my case, solar observer, lol).

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I am not being gloomy in anyway whatsoever. Just making a technical observation within the scope of the thread.  Of course enjoy the tradition. Certainly appreciate the current and completely unrelated (to the Star of Bethlehem) planetary conjunction. Did I suggest people shouldn’t? 

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On 18/12/2020 at 17:18, Moonshed said:

It’s always puzzled me how it’s possible to “follow” a star across a country and then have it lead you to one specific dwelling that it stops directly over. How can you tell which house is directly under a star? All this before sat navs!

A good point! If the star were Polaris one would end up very cold and looking (unsuccessfully) for an igloo. If it were close to the celestial equator, each nightly wandering would describe an arc curving to the south west. You'd end up in need not only of a house but of a mosquito net.

On 18/12/2020 at 18:36, Moonshed said:

 

It’s not possible to have too many books!

It is, however, possible to have too few walls...

I once moved into a loft-converted bungalow with lots of wonderful french windows. Then I realized that bookshelves need vertical walls!

Olly

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I've just used Sky Map Pro to look at positions of Jupiter and Saturn in December 4 BC (thought to be the most likely date of the birth of Jesus), and found that Jupiter and Saturn weren't close at all in 4 BC, you have to go back to 7 BC to find when they were close, and were at their closest at around 15 December that year, although nothing like as close as this year. 

Incidentally the close conjunction occurred in the constellation of Pisces, which if I recall correctly has some astrological significance.

John 

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7 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I am not being gloomy in anyway whatsoever. Just making a technical observation within the scope of the thread.  Of course enjoy the tradition. Certainly appreciate the current and completely unrelated (to the Star of Bethlehem) planetary conjunction. Did I suggest people shouldn’t? 

Not at all Ouroboros it was just a general comment.  Sometimes I think we (collective we) can over analyse things like this when we would be far better standing back and just admiring the beauty of it. For me the beauty also includes the very human narrative and tradition that is associated with it . 

Jim 

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5 minutes ago, johnturley said:

I've just used Sky Map Pro to look at positions of Jupiter and Saturn in December 4 BC (thought to be the most likely date of the birth of Jesus), and found that Jupiter and Saturn weren't close at all in 4 BC, you have to go back to 7 BC to find when they were close, and were at their closest at around 15 December that year, although nothing like as close as this year. 

Incidentally the close conjunction occurred in the constellation of Pisces, which if I recall correctly has some astrological significance.

John 

7BC is good getting closer; what about 6BC . The hunt goes on  :) 

Jim  

 

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53 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

It all seems a bit odd that these wise men from the east saw a star in the east and followed it to Jerusalem, which it should be noted is west of where they supposedly set out from.   From Jerusalem they followed the star to Bethlehem, which incidentally is south of Jerusalem, till it came to rest over the place they were looking for. Now we all know neither stars nor planets ‘come to rest’ over anywhere. So whatever it was it wasn’t a conventional celestial object. So speculation as to whether it was a star, supernova, comet or planetary conjunction is irrelevant because taking the description at face value it was none of these. 

Indeed - we are talking about special sort of book describing special sort of event.

Nothing wrong in accepting the fact that it was special sort of a star described.

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Seems like Kepler favoured 7 BC but in June.  Maybe worth a read to get us in the festive  mood  http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1937JRASC..31..417B&defaultprint=YES&filetype=.pdf

 

It's really a shame that the BBC have that  Sky At Night episode on the Star of Bethlehem locked down ; they examined a number of candidates and from what I remember of it it was well done :

"Chris Lintott reconstructs the night sky over Jerusalem at the time of Jesus's birth, discovering a once-in-a-millennium conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter that was first suggested as a cause of the star by the great astronomer Johannes Kepler in 1604.  Armed with his telescope, Pete Lawrence searches out the features of the night sky we can observe today that may provide clues to the origin of the Star of Bethlehem.  Professor Alan Fitzsimmons explains why the sudden appearance of a comet in the night sky has always been seen as an omen of great events on Earth.  Dallas Campbell goes in search of the historical and archaeological records that can shed light on the identity of the star. Finding Babylonian tablets in the vaults of the British Museum and ancient Chinese texts that record all the unusual events in the night sky 2,000 years ago, including a bright new star that appeared for 70 days in the year 5BC. "

 

Jim

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33 minutes ago, saac said:

Seems like Kepler favoured 7 BC but in June.  Maybe worth a read to get us in the festive  mood  http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1937JRASC..31..417B&defaultprint=YES&filetype=.pdf

 

 

 

Jim

Looking at Sky Map Pro again, it looks like there was a triple conjunction in 7 BC, passing very close in June, September (around the time of opposition), and again in December.

Although the pair were never as close as this year, the fact that it was a triple conjunction probably increased the astrological significance of the event. 

John 

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1 minute ago, Nigella Bryant said:

From SkySafari similar to our view but not as close. 7BC, December 4th. 

 

I think different computer programs give slightly different results, Sky Map Pro indicates closest at around the 15th.

According to Kepler the second of the triple conjunctions was in August, but Sky Map Pro says September, not saying which one is correct. 

John 

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54 minutes ago, johnturley said:

I think different computer programs give slightly different results, Sky Map Pro indicates closest at around the 15th.

According to Kepler the second of the triple conjunctions was in August, but Sky Map Pro says September, not saying which one is correct. 

John 

One would assume that they take account of leap years, the change to the Gregorian calendar

if I remember correctly there was a the change in the number of months in the year - October/November/December were one the 8th/9th and 10th monthly of the year.

missing any of those would make a difference

 

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On 18/12/2020 at 16:46, Skipper Billy said:

'Star of Bethlehem' - I am seeing in the media more and more reports about next weeks conjunction being a re-run of the 'Star of Bethlehem'.

For a kick off they are NOT stars! Giving them poetic licence and ignoring that fact I looked the location of Jupiter and Saturn around the alleged date of the happening and they were nowhere near each other!! Not even close.

See attached and notice the date - Christmas Eve just before the 'event' - I also scrolled backwards and forwards a few years each way and they were never even close to conjunction !! [I am assuming that Stellarium is accurate for years BC?]

For the pedants - you are quite right my house was not there over 2000 years ago!!!

Screenshot 2020-12-18 14.49.46.jpg

I want to say a big thank you to the OP, the esteemed ‘Skipper Billy’. What a truly remarkable thread from an observation of how the press report this stuff.

I am very sensitive to this kind of thing as I try in my limited way to show the people around me about the universe surrounding this planet to a deafening silence.

Over the last week or so I have been bombarded by the same non Astro folk saying “you are an astronomer, what about this amazing Bethlehem star” frankly I am left in silence.

I cannot reconcile how the very same people who have no interest in observations from their back garden suddenly seek me out for validation after reading a news paper!

Marvin

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