Buying my first telescope... HELP

[Tonny]

Hello guys  I am an absolute amateur buying his first telescope... and I am desperate, please help.
My budget is around 1300 euro (1600$). I am interested mostly in DSO... astrophotography, but observing as well. 

So refractors are better for astrophotography, crisp clear views, plus they are low maintenance... but refractors with big aperture are too expensive, apo refractors even more... and I think that I want big aperture, because I am interested in observing as well, not only astrophotography. Sooo more light, more details, more magnification. Please correct me, if I am mistaken.
Also, I know the mount is really important for photography, but these scopes comes with mounts that maybe are not the best, but are they good enough? 

I am considering these three options now:
1. https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/skywatcher-telescope-n-200-1000-explorer-bd-neq-5-pro-synscan-goto/p,20291#tab_bar_1_select 
2. https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/bresser-telescope-ac-152-760-ar-152s-messier-hexafoc-exos-2-goto/p,14209#tab_bar_2_select 
3. https://www.astroshop.eu/telescopes/bresser-telescope-ac-127l-1200-messier-hexafoc-exos-2-goto/p,14206

Bresser 127 have smaller aperture, but very good reviews... on the other hand Skywatcher have nice reviews as well and bigger aperture.
Bresser 152 sounds really nice, but is a bit expensive, and as long as I have to buy an eyepiece, nebula filter, adapter for my DSLR, maybe this CA correcting filter... it will goes above my budget and I don't know if it deserve it, and again - Skywatcher wouldn't be better?
The only thing that censers me about the Skywatcher is that collimation thing every time and that it could be too complicated for a newbie (that is what I read about big reflectors)... usually this kind of things wouldn't scare me, I mean how complicated it can be... If it is the better telescope than it deserve a little more maintenance?

Since I am not going to be a professional, I want to observe and take photos just for fun - I know I have to compromise with something for this price... I am just very confused after all I read.... And as I said, I am a newbie never took a look trough a telescope, so I trust Internet and I am ready to buy the first telescope someone advise me  
I don't thing I could afford buying telescope again any time soon, that is why I want something good, that I wouldn't need to change and be happy with it for maaany years.
Please correct me, if I am wrong with all these and if there is a better telescope for me?

Thanks in advance!  

Edited December 10, 2020 by Tonny

[faulksy]

hi tonny, and welcome to sgl and the wonderful world of astronomy. some one will be along soon to help. i know a fast reflector of around 8" upwards will work for visual and astrophotography . but the mount is important

[vlaiv]

Hi and welcome to SGL.

Maybe best course of action would be to do some reading on astrophotography first. Get a book, often recommended one is "Making Every Photon Count"

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

Thing with astrophotography is that it is very demanding and it is expensive. Having one telescope that will do it all - both visual and astrophotography is probably wrong approach. Single telescope will hardly do it all for astrophotography (many end up using small apo for wide field and larger telescope to get in closer to subjects).

Get a book first and see what is needed to do astrophotography, and then think about getting two scopes instead of one.

Telescope like this will be all you need for observing for many years:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian.html

It will take just a bit of your budget - and then look into getting small apo telescope and good mount (often recommended ED80 and maybe EQ5 mount would be within budget) for astrophotography.

[Louis D]

Yes, much better to have a dedicated Dob for observing and an EQ mounted ED refractor for DSO imaging.  If you want to get into planetary imaging, an SCT or Mak would probably be the way to go.

[Cosmic Geoff]

Like Louis D says, do not even try to buy one telescope that does everything.  The requirements differ widely. You can merge the visual and planetary imaging hardware to a large degree in that a planetary imaging outfit will also be good for visual, but the requirements for deep space astrophotography are quite different.

[mikemarotta]

Welcome. The best course of action is what you are doing right now: asking questions and reading. One recommendation is to consider how much you want to spend. You said around EU 1300. Consider how much you earn by the hour. Divide the price by your pay rate and that will indicate the number of hours you should spend reading and asking questions. We live in a computerized world, but once you buy a telescope, there is no ctrl-z, no Back arrow. I will say that any telescope is better than no telescope. However, making the right choice will feel better in your heart, your mind, and your bank account.

 

(I am going to post later today about two mistakes I made. And I had the book right in front of me.)

Best Regards,

Mike M.

Edited December 10, 2020 by mikemarotta

[Moonshed]

Over the many years I have been into astronomy I have only ever owned one scope at a time, money can only stretch so far. My current scope is an 8” Celestron SCT which I have had for almost 30 years and I find it perfectly satisfactory for both visual observations and astrophotography. Some scopes are specialised, either for solar observing, general night sky observing, observing planets or astrophotography, and they will all  be great at doing precisely what they are designed to do. If only one scope can be bought then some  sacrifices in quality will perhaps need be made in some areas, depends really on what you expect for your money, so do some research and then research some more.

Ideally, If you find out where your local astronomical club is pay them a visit, the folks there will be only too happy for you look through their scopes, that is the only way to be completely sure.

Keith

[Tonny]

Thank you all , really appreciate your opinion! 🙏

Going to my astronomical local club would be the best, but I am lucky to live under really cool dark skies ☺️ far from the city and the places these guys hanging out, so my local club is not so local... not that it is so far away and impossible to go there, I am just not sure when it would be possible in the near future.

I absolutely understand that a lot of reading is needed and that if I go with one scope  there will be some sacrifices and I am OK with this. As I said - I don't aim professional quality photographs. I just want to observe, take photos and having fun, and maybe one day or night, if I find myself going seriously with AP, then I will consider another scope and special astro camera etc.

For now I decided that I can extend the budget a little bit in order to buy this: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200pds-heq5-pro.html
This one looks like good for observations and also not bad for AP. Is it good enough or still two scopes is better, considering that I am aware I cant achieve perfect quality photos with one universal type of telescope?

At the same time, I see why two scopes for the same price may be a better idea, so if I go with this, could you please recommend me mount and telescope for AP (maybe ed or apo refractor if possible) that are good and will fit the budget? Also I know that I need adaptor for my DSLR, but what else is a must?
If I take Skywatcher 200P Dobsonian for observations (and hope that I can make it without goto 😃), there will be left around £900-£1000 for AP scope and mount and the additional things.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Tonny

[KP82]

The SW 200PDS newt can indeed be used for both visual and ap, but the heq5 pro (being one of the best beginner AP mounts) will probably struggle with the weight of the OTA depending on how heavy your imaging kit is. If you've already got a DSLR, you will need to pick up a guidescope, a guide camera, a coma corrector and collimation tools (either cheshire ep or laser).

Starting your journey of ap at 1000mm focal length with a fast newt could be quite challenging, therefore I'd also recommend the two scopes approach, 8" dob for visual and ED80 + EQ5 for ap.

Edited December 13, 2020 by KP82

[Louis D]

13 hours ago, Tonny said:

For now I decided that I can extend the budget a little bit in order to buy this: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200pds-heq5-pro.html
This one looks like good for observations and also not bad for AP. Is it good enough or still two scopes is better, considering that I am aware I cant achieve perfect quality photos with one universal type of telescope?

You do realize that setup weighs about 36kg or 79 pounds when all set up?  It has to be assembled in parts and can't be easily moved around once assembled.  This can be an issue if you have trees or buildings to dodge to see certain areas of the sky.

[AstroMuni]

22 hours ago, Tonny said:

For now I decided that I can extend the budget a little bit in order to buy this: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200pds-heq5-pro.html

The mount & the OTA are great choices for both visual and AP. As others have mentioned look at your personal circumstances of how easy it would be to move the kit around and check with FLO if it will pose weight limitations in future if you wish to use serious AP kit on it.

Another approach (from what has been mentioned about getting a dobs + APO) would be spend more on getting a good mount first along with a smaller (say) 130-150mm scope. Then the same mount would perfectly handle any APOs and compex AP equipment.

Edited December 14, 2020 by AstroMuni

[Tonny]

19 hours ago, Louis D said:

You do realize that setup weighs about 36kg or 79 pounds when all set up?  It has to be assembled in parts and can't be easily moved around once assembled.  This can be an issue if you have trees or buildings to dodge to see certain areas of the sky.

Yeah, it's heavy, I see that... That is why at first I was looking for big refractor, at least to avoid the collimation part, knowing that have to deal with big tubes either way. But the two telescopes setup has to be assembled in parts too. Only the dobson is 26kg and has to be assembled in two parts and the AP scope as well - mount + scope. So it looks kind of equal. I guess I just can not understand the pros of the two scopes approach?

I think that the SW 200pds is better, because I will be able to photograph planets + DSO objects. It comes with good mount and after a while, If I want more from AP, then I can buy refractor and use the same mount... just like AstroMuni mentioned above. I guess he was talking about better then HEQ5 mount, but I am not sure if that will fit my budget. And HEQ5 may not be the perfect mount, but if it can handle 200mm, it can deal with small refractor and camera... right? Plus, I don't aim professional quality images... I just want to get the most I can from this budget... and if I get that serious with AP, maybe then I will spend more.

The pros of the two telescopes approach is that I will have two different kind if scopes obviously... but what else?

Edited December 14, 2020 by Tonny

[Tonny]

On 13/12/2020 at 23:00, KP82 said:

you will need to pick up a guidescope, a guide camera

Is this a must from the very beginning? Considering that first I have to learn how to use the telescope and how to do AP 😃 + can you recommend me good guide scope and camera that will fit the budget? 

[vlaiv]

25 minutes ago, Tonny said:

Yeah, it's heavy, I see that... That is why at first I was looking for big refractor, at least to avoid the collimation part, knowing that have to deal with big tubes either way. But the two telescopes setup has to be assembled in parts too. Only the dobson is 26kg and has to be assembled in two parts and the AP scope as well - mount + scope. So it looks kind of equal. I guess I just can not understand the pros of the two scopes setup?

I think that the SW 200pds is better, because I will be able to photograph planets + DSO objects. It comes with good mount and after a while, If I want more from AP, then I can buy refractor and use the same mount... just like AstroMuni mentioned above. I guess he was talking about better then HEQ5 mount, but I am not sure if that will fit my budget. And HEQ5 may not be the perfect mount, but if it can handle 200mm, it can deal with small refractor and camera... right? Plus, I don't aim professional quality images... I just want to get the most I can from this budget... and if I get that serious with AP, maybe then I will spend more.

The pros of the two telescopes setup is that I will have two different kind if scopes obviously... but what else?

Here is my experience, as I've been (and to some extent still am) where you are now.

It takes about hour or so to set up Heq5 for imaging. It takes 5 minutes to get my 8" dob out and be ready for observing.

I keep my gear in my basement and I have back yard. For observing I usually take 3 trips from the basement to the back yard - not much to it really - take out my observing chair and a small table. Take out dob base and finally take out OTA. Leave it there about 20 minutes to half an hour to cool down and I'm ready to go.

When I want to do imaging - things get complicated really fast. I need to do at least 10-12 trips to/from basement.

- tripod

- mount head

- counter weights

- computer equipment

- telescope

- camera assembly

- power supply

- ...

Setting up involves:

- hooking everything up

- polar aligning

- placing telescope and all the accessories on the scope

- balancing the whole thing

- initial alignment / plate solving

- guider calibration

- ...

This is with HEQ5 and 8" scope on it. I have 8" RC - which is much shorter than that newtonian. That is a big scope and I would not recommend that you start with that. Sure, if you are going to use it for both visual and imaging - then yes, that is probably the best choice, although I would urge you to consider 6" PDS instead. 8" will be preferred for visual but 6" will be better for astrophotography - less weight, less focal length. In fact, to be honest - 130PDS will be the best newtonian on Heq5 to get you started - however, it will be visually the least attractive option as it has the least aperture.

I don't like Newtonian + EQ mount for visual. You can't use it while seated down and being relaxed - you need to stand. You constantly need to rotate tube as you move the scope around the sky so eyepiece does not get in awkward position. Even if you manage to put eyepiece in the right place - finder usually won't be. Larger the scope - bigger the issue. It will be harder to rotate in rings - it will be bulkier so eyepiece will be harder to reach and finder particularly.

My first scope was 130 newtonian on EQ2 mount. That was actually manageable, but again, one needed to stand in order to observe. Just to put things into perspective, 8" scope on Heq5 is this big:

and depending on your height, you might even have issues to reach eyepiece in some positions.

My only concern is that you are purchasing setup based on idea that you want to do astrophotography - without knowing all that is involved and sacrificing visual observing because of that.

Imagine you have to setup your telescope 40 minutes each time with 30+ Kg of equipment to assemble before you even start observing. Very quickly you will be in position that you really don't want to do that and you'd rather watch TV or whatever (just because you don't feel like setting up everything).

Astrophotography is expensive. When you purchase mount + telescope - you only really started to get gear for astrophotography. Did you leave some of the budget for coma corrector needed with newtonian type scopes? Did you account for T2 adapter for your DSLR? How about guiding? Do you have a lap top.

No you don't have to guide - but at 1000mm you'll be limited to say 20-30s exposures without trailing, maybe even less. Once you start guiding - you'll realize that really 1000mm is long focal length and your mount, although excellent beginner mount is suited for half that focal length out of the box and if you want to go 1000mm - you need to tune it, belt mod it, add different bits to it, ...

 

 

[vlaiv]

16 minutes ago, Tonny said:

Is this a must from the very beginning? Considering that first I have to learn how to use the telescope and how to do AP 😃 + can you recommend me good guide scope and camera that will fit the budget? 

You don't have to do it right away - you can do short exposures without guiding - if you have shorter focal length telescope. You don't really need to spend much money on guiding system. Your finder scope + cheap web camera that you'll modify and make adapter to guide scope will be good enough guider system to start with.

Problem is - if you start having difficulties - you'll often blame poor web camera for poor guiding and you'll end up buying more expensive stuff (although it might not be down to web camera in the first place).

Greatest thing that you can do is - understand what you are getting into with astrophotography before you start spending money on equipment. This will make your life much easier.

[Tonny]

@vlaiv WOW, thanks a lot! This was very informative and helpful!

The truth is that I've been told (from a person that has exactly this 8" newt - observe, but mostly do AP with it, and I like the photos) that he setup everything and do the collimation - all in around 10 min....

That is why I moved so quickly from 127 refractor, to 152 refractor, to 8" reflector. And I guess the same time consuming setup goes with 152 refractor as well, it is also a big tube... or mak, or rc...?

If it takes sooo much time just to setup, then - hell no. Now I think the best for me is to take this 8"dob and a star map for nights and a book about AP for daylight, and wait for a while with the AP scope, although I know I want to do AP.

Also, I have been told about video astronomy and I am researching about this thing now... any thoughts about it?

Edited December 15, 2020 by Tonny

[Cosmic Geoff]

I think you should pay attention to the advice you are being offered here.  I used to have a 203mm Newtonian on a manual EQ-5 and as a visual scope it was horrible to use.  It will also be challenging to use for deep space AP, by most accounts. And regardless of what somebody told you, it does take time to get the gear outside and set it up.  I find it takes half an hour to get an alt-azimuth outfit outside and set up for imaging - and that's without the added complication of polar alignment.

Dobsonians have their limitations, but the setup consists of: Take out base. Take out OTA. Take out accessories. Start observing.

If you have a decent DSLR, you cam do wide field astrophotography with it - just attach it to a mount.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Cosmic Geoff

[AstroMuni]

11 hours ago, Tonny said:

And HEQ5 may not be the perfect mount, but if it can handle 200mm, it can deal with small refractor and camera... right? Plus, I don't aim professional quality images... I just want to get the most I can from this budget... and if I get that serious with AP, maybe then I will spend more.

The HEQ5 is a very decent mount for beginners in AP. It has a load capacity of 11kg for AP and a bit higher for visual, so the 200pds weighing almost 9kg doesnt give you much room to add on accessories. To add to comment by @vlaiv about using 130pds, take a look at this long post on what its capable of.

 

[KP82]

47 minutes ago, Tonny said:

Is this a must from the very beginning? Considering that first I have to learn how to use the telescope and how to do AP 😃 + can you recommend me good guide scope and camera that will fit the budget? 

Well if you're going to take short exposures (1 - 2 mins per sub) with an ED80, you can probably get away without guiding provided you properly balance your setup.

As for a good low cost guiding setup, the SW 9x50 finderscope w/ C mount adapter + ASI120MM-S is a decent option: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-scopes/sky-watcher-9x50-finder-adapter-zwo-asi120mm-bundle.html

 

[Tonny]

Thank you all very much guys! 🙏 Special thanks to vlaiv for this good example that made me clearly understand the difference between this two approaches. 

I am going to buy 8" dob and the book vlaiv recommend me and probably gonna wait for a while with the AP telescope and mount 🙂

Maybe I will go after Bresser 8"dob instead Skywatcher. I can not find SW in stock, but Bresser is in stock in my country for a good price... If I want to buy SW I have to wait maybe a month and after the import taxes, the price will be the same as Bresser, which I can get now.

Both have amazing reviews + somebody here in the forum asked about which one is better and most  answers were to choose Bresser. But still Skywatcher is so much popular 🤔  Does anyone of you have any concerns about SW being better than Bresser?

[vlaiv]

2 minutes ago, Tonny said:

Thank you all very much guys! 🙏 Special thanks to vlaiv for this good example that made me clearly understand the difference between this two approaches. 

I am going to buy 8" dob and the book vlaiv recommend me and probably gonna wait for a while with the AP telescope and mount 🙂

Maybe I will go after Bresser 8"dob instead Skywatcher. I can not find SW in stock, but Bresser is in stock in my country for a good price... If I want to buy SW I have to wait maybe a month and after the import taxes, the price will be the same as Bresser, which I can get now.

Both have amazing reviews + somebody here in the forum asked about which one is better and most  answers were to choose Bresser. But still Skywatcher is so much popular 🤔  Does anyone of you have any concerns about SW being better than Bresser?

I think either will be fine. I think that popularity of Skywatcher is due to it's availability back in the day.

In fact - I would go for Bresser over SW if they have the same price. Bresser OTA can be mounted on other mounts more easily than Skywatcher (if you ever for example want to do planetary imaging with 8" F/6 scope and you decide to mount it on your future HEQ5 or better mount ).

One thing that I don't like about Bresser telescopes is their finder scopes - they look flimsy and plastic. I ended up replacing finder on my SW dob anyways as RACI / right angle version is so much easier to use.

Do budget for additional few eyepieces - Bresser seems to come with only 25mm SPL eyepiece.

 

 

[KP82]

1 hour ago, Tonny said:

Thank you all very much guys! 🙏 Special thanks to vlaiv for this good example that made me clearly understand the difference between this two approaches. 

I am going to buy 8" dob and the book vlaiv recommend me and probably gonna wait for a while with the AP telescope and mount 🙂

Maybe I will go after Bresser 8"dob instead Skywatcher. I can not find SW in stock, but Bresser is in stock in my country for a good price... If I want to buy SW I have to wait maybe a month and after the import taxes, the price will be the same as Bresser, which I can get now.

Both have amazing reviews + somebody here in the forum asked about which one is better and most  answers were to choose Bresser. But still Skywatcher is so much popular 🤔  Does anyone of you have any concerns about SW being better than Bresser?

Excellent choice.

The Bresser is an overall better kit than the SW and you're lucky that it's in stock where you're at the moment.

The finder shoe on the Bresser/Explore Scientific scopes is incompatible with the standard SW format found on many aftermarket finderscopes. Therefore I'd recommend replace the stock finder shoe so you can use a readily available RACI finder instead of the plastic 6x30 toy that is bundled with the scope.

The stock 25mm SPL eyepiece is actually pretty decent. You can price in an 8mm BST Starguider eyepiece for high power views.

[tonylumley]

Hi Tonny, if I can just throw a small spanner in your plan, Like you I wasn't sure and after a lot of reading I purchased the Sky watcher EQ5 R pro. Great mount, 2 years on,I have just upgraded to the EQ6t R pro, mainly because I had underestimated the weight of my camera and additional kit, which caused the scope to wobble when trying to take photos, so if my mistake saves you buying the wrong mount............ All mounts are on back order at the moment so you have another 30-40 days to save the extra money, give First Light Optics a ring , they are very helpful and are happy to advise, all the best, Lum

[Erling G-P]

I started out a few years ago with just the scope/mount combo you suggest:  SW 200 PDS & HEQ5Pro.  Wanted to be able to do both AP & visual, but with main focus being AP. I thus accepted the compromises of using a big Newton on an EQ mount visually, as it's not something I do very often.

I can confirm much of what Vlaiv has pointed out already.  I have to carry everything out and assemble it every time, and there's no way I could do that in 10 minutes - ½ an hour at least, including polar alignment, if all goes well.  Collimation I check & tweak with a Hotech laser. Easy, takes 5 minutes, but the well liked Hotech is expensive.  For visual you can setup quicker, if you place your tripod in the exact same place each time (making marks on the ground; putting slabs into the lawn or the like).  Then you can skip polar alignment, or just do a very rough one, as it doesn't have to be very accurate for visual.

I started out without guiding, as there's enough to learn already without that, and you can certainly get your feet wet and get material to practice processing on without it.  I was limited to 30 secs exposures, if I didn't want to throw away too many images due to tracking errors, but again, you can do plenty with this - just gives you more single images (subs) to stack, so demanding of hard drive space.

After about a year, I belt-modded the mount, which is relatively inexpensive, and added a guide solution.  That really lifted my images, so this is a path you will want to follow eventually. 

I have also supplemented the 200 PDS with a 130 PDS, for a wider field of view of large objects which won't fit within the view of the 200 PDS.  It is a much more manageable size and the HEQ5 has a much easier time with it - I have imaged with it in a half gale, while the 200 PDS requires very little to no wind at all, as it's a big sail, not least with the large dew shield I have to use.  It would thus be a fair bit easier to start AP with, but as Vlaiv points out,  not as attractive for visual.

Must haves are a coma corrector and a Bahtinov mask for focusing.  I use SW's 0.9 coma corrector, which works with both scopes. This is only for imaging though; not necessary for visual.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Erling G-P

[Second Time Around]

On 15/12/2020 at 15:00, Tonny said:

Maybe I will go after Bresser 8"dob instead Skywatcher. I can not find SW in stock, but Bresser is in stock in my country for a good price... If I want to buy SW I have to wait maybe a month and after the import taxes, the price will be the same as Bresser, which I can get now.

Both have amazing reviews + somebody here in the forum asked about which one is better and most  answers were to choose Bresser. But still Skywatcher is so much popular 🤔  Does anyone of you have any concerns about SW being better than Bresser?

The advantages of the Bresser are, firstly, that it's got a better, smoother mount than the Skywatcher due to very big altitude rings.  These also enable you to both rotate and slide the tube up and down for balance.  You can also use an altitude ring to carry the scope more easily, with the tube in one hand and the mount in the other.  IMHO the mount is one of the most important parts of any scope.  You can easily upgrade almost everything else on a Dob, but it's much harder to get an upgraded mount at low cost unless you build your own.

Secondly, it's got an excellent (and much higher-priced) 2 1/2 inch rack and pinion focusser. It's single speed, but there's an optional extra to later convert it into dual speed.  

Thirdly, the mirror on the Bresser is made from low expansion glass and therefore will cool down ready for observing more quickly.  If a scope isn't at the same temperature as the outside air the image will be degraded.

Fourthly, there's only 1 eyepiece but it's of better quality than the 2 Skywatcher ones.  Most people upgrade their Skywatcher eyepieces very quickly; with the Bresser you've already got a good one.

In the UK the Bresser is quite a bit more expensive.  Even so I'd choose the Bresser, even if I had to wait a bit longer.  If the Bresser is the same price in your country the Bresser is a bargain!