Vague idea but no gear (yet) advice appreciated

[Driverpm]

Hi All, new here and I’m aware that this is a regular type of question, but any advice would be gratefully received:

8 year old son and I have had a great summer and autumn using binoculars to look at the landscape and clear night skies with a handy “star walk” app to assist our spotting. The brightness of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn has really fired his enthusiasm and interest (and my own is rekindled) and, having unexpectedly come into a small amount of money, due to unfortunate circumstances, I would like to use it positively to further our interest.

We’re (un)lucky enough to have a budget of up to about £700 all-in (we don’t have to spend all of it). Basically I would like a scope that will provide good views of the moon, local planets (I would love to see Saturn’s ring) and ideally some of the more prominent DSOs. Ideally it will also be quick to set up, easy to store, portable (as it may well become a second or a grab and go, out and about option) and suit being used (guided) by a relatively young lad. I’m not really thinking of Astrophotography right now (beyond a mobile phone mount to remember some of our views by) and I’m reconciled to the fact that I wont find a single scope that will allow us to see everything in a single mobile package (I think I would like to get into DSO observation in due course), and that this first scope might become one of several should we desire to explore further or get into imaging in the future.

Having read the forums, reviews and spoken to a local shop I’m quite taken by the Sky-watcher Skymax 127 Az-GTI, it sounds like it should give relatively good views or the moon and large planets. I like the size, wifi control and “freedom find” sounds like a useful innovation for observation with kids. I’m curious if this is a sensible option or whether extending to something like a celestron AstroFI 6, would offer some advantages or possibly negatives, I was also  curious about the Sky-Watcher Star Discovery 150i WiFi but was concerned that it may be less portable and maybe more useful for the DSOs, which may be better served by future, specific purchases.

Given the budget and our intended use, what do you more experienced folks think, I remain open to options/suggestions? Clearly a cheaper scope will allow for more accessories (Power source, eyepieces, Barlow/reducer, dew shield etc.). if any of the options could be made more flexible or perform better, what additional buys might be recommended??

Thanks in advance

Phil

[Gfamily]

The downside of the SkyMax is that it has a relatively narrow field of view, and a long focal length,  which has two effects. 

 - the narrow field of view means that you need to be spot on with your alignment or otherwise you could find your actual target is outside your field of view

- the long focal length can reduce the contrast of extended faint objects 

There's a lot to be said for the Az GTi as a mount, and with a light weight scope it works really well  - however, my experience of using it with the 127 Mak is that it's not always spot on with finding its targets, and not hitting the targets can be extremely frustrating (believe me, I know this !!) 

I would suggest going for a lower tech solution, and would suggest you start with a Heritage 130p manual dobsonian scope. It has a nice wide field of view, and gives excellent images of clusters, the Moon and planets (with a Barlow lens to give the extra image size). 

One advantage of this is that your son will be able to get it out and use it by himself. 

One feature of the Heritage over other 'table top' telescopes is that optics can be removed from the table-top mount and mounted onto the AZ GTi, which will give you the advantage of freedom find and wifi controls. 

Now, in fairness I have to say that I do have a 127Mak and it is generally the first scope I go to for observing - but I often get frustrated with it, and I can see how people can be put off when it doesn't work as well as I thing it ought to. 

In short, rather than risking you and your son getting frustrated by the tech, start by going for something that allows a simpler, lower tech approach to whet your interests. 

Hope this helps

Edited November 9, 2020 by Gfamily

[bomberbaz]

I have a AZ GTI Wifi mount and love it. 

If you think you will do mainly planetary, star clusters/double stars, the moon with a view that you might go to more difficult objects later, then the 127 skymax is perfect.

However if your going to want to view a full range of objects including galaxies and nebula along with the aforementioned, then maybe the same mount with a shorter F ratio newtonion will serve you better.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-explorer-130ps-az-gti.html

As for accuracy, well my own findings are that it is excellent as long as set up correctly. 

It's a subjective thing. Personally I love technology. 

[Tiny Clanger]

56 minutes ago, Driverpm said:

Hi All, new here and I’m aware that this is a regular type of question, but any advice would be gratefully received:

8 year old son and I have had a great summer and autumn using binoculars to look at the landscape and clear night skies with a handy “star walk” app to assist our spotting. The brightness of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn has really fired his enthusiasm and interest (and my own is rekindled) and, having unexpectedly come into a small amount of money, due to unfortunate circumstances, I would like to use it positively to further our interest.

We’re (un)lucky enough to have a budget of up to about £700 all-in (we don’t have to spend all of it). Basically I would like a scope that will provide good views of the moon, local planets (I would love to see Saturn’s ring) and ideally some of the more prominent DSOs. Ideally it will also be quick to set up, easy to store, portable (as it may well become a second or a grab and go, out and about option) and suit being used (guided) by a relatively young lad. I’m not really thinking of Astrophotography right now (beyond a mobile phone mount to remember some of our views by) and I’m reconciled to the fact that I wont find a single scope that will allow us to see everything in a single mobile package (I think I would like to get into DSO observation in due course), and that this first scope might become one of several should we desire to explore further or get into imaging in the future.

Having read the forums, reviews and spoken to a local shop I’m quite taken by the Sky-watcher Skymax 127 Az-GTI, it sounds like it should give relatively good views or the moon and large planets. I like the size, wifi control and “freedom find” sounds like a useful innovation for observation with kids. I’m curious if this is a sensible option or whether extending to something like a celestron AstroFI 6, would offer some advantages or possibly negatives, I was also  curious about the Sky-Watcher Star Discovery 150i WiFi but was concerned that it may be less portable and maybe more useful for the DSOs, which may be better served by future, specific purchases.

Given the budget and our intended use, what do you more experienced folks think, I remain open to options/suggestions? Clearly a cheaper scope will allow for more accessories (Power source, eyepieces, Barlow/reducer, dew shield etc.). if any of the options could be made more flexible or perform better, what additional buys might be recommended??

Thanks in advance

Phil

Hi and welcome, Phil.

Sad to have the cash to spend through unfortunate circumstances, I hope whatever decision you come to about what to buy with it will produce good, memorable  experiences for you and your family.

As you will have read on here, opinions vary widely . I'm a relative beginner myself, I inherited a Celestron 114 newtonian on a cheap eq  a few years ago , and never got on with it , too much faff to set up, so I'd agree with your choice of an az mount. During lockdown mark 1  I had some spare cash and looked to see what might be available to improve on the 114, and happily that coincided with the release of the Heritage 150mm which ticked all the boxes for me: it closes down so is easy to store, is easy for me to carry out into the garden, and left me enough cash to buy a few better eyepieces and a different type of viewfinder to supplement the supplied red dot one. The setup is simple , moving the tube to, for e.g.  track Mars takes a bit of practice and care, but is entirely possible.  I can vouch for the 'scopes ability to show Jupiter Saturn and Mars, and with persistence some details on each, but it has a focal length of 750mm , half that of the skywatcher 127 mak, at 1500mm .

So  the mak would magnify more to observe the Moon & planets, but the trade off is a smaller field of  view and less light gathered, which is not ideal for deep sky objects ... I've decided the path I want to take is to add a 127 mak to my little dob, not as an improvement, but as a different tool for a different kind of observing. If I was starting all over again, I'd still begin with the 150 Heritage though, as Gfamily says , it's a good, low tech way in.  As for accessories you will probably want, after a torch with red  beam , eyepieces will be top of the list . I've bought a few cheap plossls ( around £25 each , a 17mm and 32mm, both distinct upgrades on the included ones ) and for Mars etc a rather more expensive 8mm BST starguider, which (at around £45 ) is generally seen as good for an inexpensive eyepiece . I also bought a 2x barlow for around £30 and with that doubling the 8mm eyepiece mag, Mars scuds across the field of view pretty fast, even with the scopes relatively short 750mm focal length.

I'll be interested to hear what people say about the az goto mount , as I see one of those (or something similar) as my next purchase, once finances allow!

Heather

[Girders]

I think you’ve done really well looking at the sky max and discovery options. Having been doing this with a 5 year old (now almost 7) having a scope that tracks makes a huge difference when sharing views.  I’m also very happy with my Skymax 127 on a different mount although the narrow field of view definitely makes it tricker to locate things.

You haven’t mentioned light pollution which may be the difference in your choice. If you are in a fairly urban area then you’re not going to see much in the way of DSOs anyway so go with the Mak, but if you’re rural the extra aperature of the 150 would be useful. 

You will want a power bank or supply. Do you have an outside socket if you think you’ll do most observing from the garden? You’ll need more eyepieces for the Discovery to get the magnification you’ll want for planetary, but the Skymax will need a Dew shield and has a notoriously fiddly focused which I found hugely improved by the addition of a helical fine focuser ( https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-accessories/zwo-125-helical-focuser.html ). You’ll probably also want a smartphone adapter which can be used for basic pics or as an alternative to viewing through the eyepiece which can be tricky even for older kids.

 

Good luck!

Edited November 9, 2020 by Girders
Added helical focuser suggestion

[Stu1smartcookie]

Hi Phil ... I have had 3 Az-GTi mounts and 2 of them have been superb , the other one had problems and i was able to return it . Its a mount that can be set up in next to no time and has a payload of 5kgs . Also you may want to look into the 150i Newtonian , on the star discovery mount . It uses the same app as the AZ-GTi . With that scope you would also bypass the issue of collimation , due to the fact that the primary mirror is "fixed " in place . With a 150mm Mirror you will be able to see an awful lot  and will be more of an all rounder than the admittedly superb 127 Mak . 

Just a note of caution , I have a 127 celestron SCT , and on damp nights the plate gets very misty , so , if you are going down the Mak route , invest in a dew shield . 

[Zermelo]

Hi Phil, and welcome.

You seem to be ahead of the game in your thinking, as you've assimilated one of the most important messages, that there is no one scope that will do it all.

There are several legitimate starting points. Maks are always popular, and the Heritage range are also frequently recommended here for beginners. I have no experience with either of those, but you also mention the 150i, which I do own, so here are some thoughts on that.

The 150i has the same parabolic mirror as the more expensive 150P/PL/P-DS variants. It's a decent enough size to see quite a few fainter objects and will stand enough magnification for reasonable views of planets (i.e. for most of the time in the UK, you're going to be limited by poor seeing or planet position rather than the scope). As has been pointed out above, it is quite "fast" at F/5 - so it won't give such high magnification as a mak with the same eyepiece, but that also means it gives a wider field for extended objects, which I have appreciated more. I have been pleasantly surprised at the performance of the main mirror; I was expecting noticeable coma, astigmatism and other distortions but I really haven't seen any (with my novice eyes). A caveat with that - the stock eyepieces are (as is common) not great; the 10mm is not really usable, and the 25mm, while better, has significant pincushion. It was only when I bought some BST Starguider EPs (yes, +1 for those) that I appreciated the real capabilities.
So the cost trimming for the 150i has been made in other places. The primary mirror itself is fixed in its cell (but then, that simplifies collimation). There are no mounting rings (there's a dovetail bolted on to the tube). The finder is a simple red dot. There's no handset (phone app instead). And the focuser is a very basic model. The other aim in all this is to save weight, as the mount has a 5kg limit (though the OTA is well inside this). Personally, I think these are effective compromises for the price point.
Sizewise I find it very convenient - I can fit the OTA and tripod under my desk. It's very easy to carry, and it will fit into a small car. Part of my decision-making process was the same as yours, that this scope should be both a decent main scope to start out, and a good alternative grab-and-go if/when we upgrade.
Possibly the biggest decision is whether to opt for GoTo and/or tracking from the outset. I know there are some who have never found the need for either, and it will add a significant chunk of spend on a first scope. I wanted to share observing sessions with others, and I had found previous experiences with a manual scope a bit frustrating. Tracking is handy when switching viewers at higher magnifications and, while I would have been prepared to spend a bit of time finding objects from scratch, having GoTo was very convenient to minimise the waiting around that others have to do. I certainly wouldn't say these are essential - there are many who do without them. As for the particular flavour (SynScan) that comes with the Star Discovery mount, it was not an entirely smooth experience. A proper set of instructions took a bit of finding, and it took me a while to get the hang of it. I still occasionally have nights when it all goes wrong. But overall I find that the SynScan app works well, and is accurate enough when I've aligned properly. I find it particularly powerful when combined with SkySafari. The other feature I use a lot is the dual encoding ('Freedom Find'), which allows you to position manually without losing the alignment.

Budget at least for 2 or 3 eyepieces and maybe a barlow. In my case, I've also added a Telrad, which has been invaluable, and an illuminated reticle eyepiece.

And good luck with getting hold of anything in these covid-challenged times!

[Owmuchonomy]

We do a lot of outreach with the public and families at LTO.  Without doubt, the most versatile setup we have is using the SW AZ Gti with a small refractor.  In the main we use my SW ED80 and you can get great value from virtually all common astronomical sights in the sky, year round.  Any similar refractor will do the same.  The AZ Gti will carry a Startravel 125 for example.  The set up is portable, user friendly, can be matched with planetarium software (I run the mount with my phone and the children choose GoTo objects on the iPad), and can be run for two nights from one cordless drill battery.  I have used a 127 MAK with the AZ Gti but MAKs need cool down time and are long focal length.  When one is dancing with changes in the weather constantly you need a set up that can be quickly carried outside and that isn't the MAK.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Owmuchonomy

[Driverpm]

Hi All  NTMU,  thanks for being so welcoming and taking the time to respond. Some really helpful advice above I'm sure,  always happy to receive more.

Thanks again, Phil

[Gfamily]

6 hours ago, Owmuchonomy said:

We do a lot of outreach with the public and families at LTO.  Without doubt, the most versatile setup we have is using the SW AZ Gti with a small refractor.  In the main we use my SW ED80 and you can get great value from virtually all common astronomical sights in the sky, year round.  Any similar refractor will do the same.  The AZ Gti will carry a Startravel 125 for example.  The set up is portable, user friendly, can be matched with planetarium software (I run the mount with my phone and the children choose GoTo objects on the iPad), and can be run for two nights from one cordless drill battery.  I have used a 127 MAK with the AZ Gti but MAKs need cool down time and are long focal length.  When one is dancing with changes in the weather constantly you need a set up that can be quickly carried outside and that isn't the MAK.

I can concur with this. I've borrowed a 72mm refractor and when we were out in France at a relatively dark sky site, that scope on the AZ GTi was the most fun I've had with the scope in a long time - all GOTOs were spot on, and the dark sky meant that the targets were all easily seen. 

However, having tried the same set up here at home, it's clear that light pollution makes that 'small refractor' approach far less rewarding.  

It's good to hear that the scope can manage a larger refractor though.  

[Driverpm]

Hi all,  this is great to find out more about my options. Thank you all so much

Some supplementary info and a couple of follow-up questions  if I may?

We live in a pretty rural location on village-edge, with led down light street lights,  I have a long ssw facing back garden and nothing but open fields behind. Nearest towns are Cambridge and Newmarket  both about 10 miles away to the south e or south w of us. Some fairly dark skies are also within easy reach. 

If I went down the Mak 127 route:

In reality how long would cool down be on a crisp winters night (from an unheated garage)?

How effective are dew shields?

I guess I'd consider a decent zoom EP and get a barlow (2x?) And maybe a longer EP (32mm?), probably a daft idea but is there any sense in a focal reducer with this system e.g. a 0.63?

If I went down the 150 Reflector route:

what would I need to ensure good planetary images? I.e. clear ring(s) / moons with Saturn, surface features on Jupiter and Mars.

Would DSOs views i could achieve be  likely to grab an 8 year old's interest? right now be loves anything I do,  but I also have a 13 year old so am aware this will change 🤣 am I better served sticking to moon and planets or moon and DSOs?

I hadn't really considered a refractor but the simplicity appeals, I still like the idea of a goto (possibly wifi driven). In reality what set up would allow me to hit the sweet-spot of budget  what we can see and some degree of portability? (Ease of use by 8YO and fitting in car +/- holiday gubbins!)

I suppose the final question really applies to all choices!

Once again, I really appreciate the input, the information gathering and the decision is really interesting. I'm a cell and molecular biologists by training so this is somewhat outside my comfort zone!

Edited November 10, 2020 by Driverpm
Missed a bit!

[Stu1smartcookie]

7 hours ago, Driverpm said:

If I went down the Mak 127 route:

In reality how long would cool down be on a crisp winters night (from an unheated garage)?

How effective are dew shields?

Hmmm ... 30mins to an hour maybe ... but it really depends on a lot of factors . I had two consecutive nights where my SCT had no problems on the first night but the second night was a pain as it dewed up a few times . A dew shield is a must , a heated shield is probably better although i've never used one. ( i store my scope indoors so there is always going to be a longer cool down time . I sometimes wonder why there isn't a retractable dew shield on these scopes  in the first place , but i'm sure someone will tell me . 

A 150mm reflector is a good size and will show crisp images ( as long as its well collimated ) . Check out DIY Astro on YouTube ... he has tested a table top 150mm Dob . DSO's will be grey smudges but the thrill is seeing those smudges with your own eyes ! .. I'm afraid you will need a really large scope to see any colour ..ie a large Dobsonian . 

A refractor is a great scope for a quick set up . You can pay an awful lot of money for a really top refractor ( ED glass etc) or you can go down the achromat route and forgive the obvious false colour that you will inevitably see surrounding the brighter objects ie bright planets and the moon .

Whatever you choose you will be happy . But i admit its all a bit of a minefield ... i reckon i have bought and tried 20 scopes and i still don't know what is best for me ( don't tell the wife)!!, the thing is , its a hobby that lasts a lifetime ... even when its cloudy outside there are books to read and YouTube Vlogs to watch . And of course there is SGL  

Edited November 10, 2020 by Stu1smartcookie

[Erling G-P]

15 minutes ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Hmmm ... 30mins to an hour maybe ... but it really depends on a lot of factors .

 

If the scope is stored in an unheated garage, it should be close to ambient temperature and surely wouldn't need that long to cool down?

[Stu1smartcookie]

1 minute ago, Erling G-P said:

If the scope is stored in an unheated garage, it should be close to ambient temperature and surely wouldn't need that long to cool down?

yes you are  right ... i should have said from my own experience of storing the scope indoors .