Observing Disappointment

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, John said:

The 8mm will be much more use than the 5mm on most nights. The BST Starguiders are pretty good eyepieces for their cost and are available in both those focal lengths:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces.htm

That faint smudge might have been the Andromeda Galaxy. Like most things, visually it looks nothing like as spectacular as the images you see of it. It's also a very large object so with the F/10 SCT scope you will probably have just been looking at a portion of it.

 

Agreed John, I was only mentioning the 5mm to show that very high powers can be reached in the OPs scope without the need for a barlow. The 8mm would be a very handy eyepiece to have.

[John]

12 minutes ago, Stu said:

Agreed John, I was only mentioning the 5mm to show that very high powers can be reached in the OPs scope without the need for a barlow. The 8mm would be a very handy eyepiece to have.

I agree that they are both worth having. If one is bought before the other, I'd go for the 8mm first

[Matt61]

I'm just down the road in Dursley. I've been getting reasonable views of Saturn and Jupiter. ( they are fairly low and set quickly so you need to get out soon after sunset.) Why not try Minchinhampton Selsey or Roborough common ) I'd be tempted to manually find things if you can . I'm new to this too but both Jupiter and Saturn are easily seen relatively close to each other. Make sure finderscope is aligned and home in with widest eyepiece and gradually up magnification. As you zoom in and field of view narrows the more accurate alignment needs to be. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Matt61

[BrendanC]

I pretty quickly gave up on observing when I realised that most of the things worth seeing were only viewable when imaging. Planetary is possible, but so rare. given the suitable position of a planet and the weather in the UK. I like 'seeing what is unseeable', which is pretty much most of the sky, at any time of the year weather-willing, but only through imaging.

[Gfamily]

I fear that many things included on 'Tonight's Best' tours are likely to come under the category of 'faint fuzzies', and if you're looking under moderate levels of light pollution, they may be much less obvious than you might expect. 

If you want to check out your scope's capabilities, start with things that are not going to be swamped out. 

So my suggestions would be...

Start with Mizar and Alcor as it shows the power of the scope to clarify what you can just make out with the naked eye. 

Albireo in Cygnus - is worth looking at as a double star with different colours

Epsilon Lyrae (the double double) is worth examining under higher magnifications, as it can help you determine the quality of your image - how well can you identify that each of the 'double' is also a double?

Messier 13 in Hercules, should be visible under moderate levels of light pollution, but it will look better if you can get to a dark sky site. 

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoom=11.41&lat=51.7710&lon=-2.1932&layers=B0TFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

And, of course there are the two early evening planets, Jupiter and Saturn - if you can get to a location with a good South/West aspect in the early evening, it'll be rewarding to observe them telescopically. 

All the best with this - and clear skies. 

[JOC]

Sometimes I've noted the ability of the sky to be quite clear where there is something of interest - like Mars, but for the rest of the sky to seem empty due to the presence of clouds/fog elsewhere which are sufficiently similar to the colour of the night sky that you don't even realise they are there.  Then just as you get something in focus and think you are onto something those same clouds do the dirty on you whilst you are concentrating on your goal and slide it out of sight or obstruct your view.  There aren't many times outside that you get those perfect conditions that are needed for unobstructed viewing.

[Louis D]

15 hours ago, BrendanC said:

I pretty quickly gave up on observing when I realised that most of the things worth seeing were only viewable when imaging. Planetary is possible, but so rare. given the suitable position of a planet and the weather in the UK. I like 'seeing what is unseeable', which is pretty much most of the sky, at any time of the year weather-willing, but only through imaging.

I think this is why EEVA is gaining popularity.

[Tiny Clanger]

On 08/11/2020 at 10:34, timothy4 said:

 

I alighed the telescope and took the sky tour and literally the only thing I could see (trying both eyepieces) was Mars.  I feel very disappointed as about 25 years ago I bought my wife a Tasco refractor telescope from Argos and using simple star charts got amazing views of Saturn and Jupiter from our home in SE London!  These planets were not observable from my location using my Evolution during the week but I am keen to compare with the old Tasco refractor when they are above the steep hills which are close to my home. 

 

Just a thought about those steep hills you mention , it is possible with a bit of faff and photoshop, to add your own ground image to the downloaded version of Stellarium ( it was easy on the old version I've had for years, but a bit of a struggle for a non- computery fool like me on a new version on a windows10 machine. ) My suburban garden faces south, and there's one whacking great evergreen tree obstructing the exact middle of my view, so the personalized foreground (once adjusted to be as accurately lined up as possible) lets me check on the computer what will be visible (clouds willing) at any time I choose. 

 

[fifeskies]

The custom horizon is very useful and not that difficult to set up, there's a guide online for doing it.

I too had a similar tree in the way , I improved my custom horizon with the aid of a reciprocating saw (much easier to handle than a chainsaw). 😜

[Tiny Clanger]

2 hours ago, fifeskies said:

The custom horizon is very useful and not that difficult to set up, there's a guide online for doing it.

I too had a similar tree in the way , I improved my custom horizon with the aid of a reciprocating saw (much easier to handle than a chainsaw). 😜

Unfortunately I think the neighbour might notice if I cut her tree down !

 

[KP82]

I could fully understand your disappointment.

The first time I looked through a telescope was when I was in Year 10. The scope, an 80mm refractor belonged to my Physics teacher. Since then I always wanted one for myself. Two years later my aunt bought me a Tasco 60/900. I enjoyed the views of Jupiter and Saturn through it. However that was about all I could see with it. Then I read up some magazines about different aspects of a scope like aperture, focal length, refractor vs reflector, etc. and started to suspect the reason I couldn't see much else with my 60mm was because of its limited aperture. So when my cousin got a 114mm newt, I immediately went to his house and asked to try it. Unfortunately there weren't much to see either. All those beautiful looking galaxies/nebulae printed on the box were either a blob of fuzzy or a grey hazy patch. I still believe these marketing materials have a lot to do with unrealistic expections among beginners like once I was.

I finally started imaging a couple of years ago when I acquired my own APO refractor. The results so far have been quite satisfactory. I haven't given up on visual, but my main targets are now open clusters, doubles and planets.

[timothy4]

23 hours ago, John said:

The 8mm will be much more use than the 5mm on most nights. The BST Starguiders are pretty good eyepieces for their cost and are available in both those focal lengths:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces.htm

That faint smudge might have been the Andromeda Galaxy. Like most things, visually it looks nothing like as spectacular as the images you see of it. It's also a very large object so with the F/10 SCT scope you will probably have just been looking at a portion of it.

 

That is really useful to know; thank you.

[timothy4]

On 08/11/2020 at 21:54, Matt61 said:

I'm just down the road in Dursley. I've been getting reasonable views of Saturn and Jupiter. ( they are fairly low and set quickly so you need to get out soon after sunset.) Why not try Minchinhampton Selsey or Roborough common ) I'd be tempted to manually find things if you can . I'm new to this too but both Jupiter and Saturn are easily seen relatively close to each other. Make sure finderscope is aligned and home in with widest eyepiece and gradually up magnification. As you zoom in and field of view narrows the more accurate alignment needs to be. 

Cool, thank you Matt, I might try that in those locations.  Really useful to have a local heads up on those targets.

[timothy4]

On 08/11/2020 at 23:12, BrendanC said:

I pretty quickly gave up on observing when I realised that most of the things worth seeing were only viewable when imaging. Planetary is possible, but so rare. given the suitable position of a planet and the weather in the UK. I like 'seeing what is unseeable', which is pretty much most of the sky, at any time of the year weather-willing, but only through imaging.

Thanks, yes I can understand that.  Big difference between observing and imaging.

[timothy4]

On 09/11/2020 at 00:02, Gfamily said:

I fear that many things included on 'Tonight's Best' tours are likely to come under the category of 'faint fuzzies', and if you're looking under moderate levels of light pollution, they may be much less obvious than you might expect. 

If you want to check out your scope's capabilities, start with things that are not going to be swamped out. 

So my suggestions would be...

Start with Mizar and Alcor as it shows the power of the scope to clarify what you can just make out with the naked eye. 

Albireo in Cygnus - is worth looking at as a double star with different colours

Epsilon Lyrae (the double double) is worth examining under higher magnifications, as it can help you determine the quality of your image - how well can you identify that each of the 'double' is also a double?

Messier 13 in Hercules, should be visible under moderate levels of light pollution, but it will look better if you can get to a dark sky site. 

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoom=11.41&lat=51.7710&lon=-2.1932&layers=B0TFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

And, of course there are the two early evening planets, Jupiter and Saturn - if you can get to a location with a good South/West aspect in the early evening, it'll be rewarding to observe them telescopically. 

All the best with this - and clear skies. 

Thank you gfamily for the great advice; will definitely try your recommendations

[MercianDabbler]

I don't think anybody said M57 yet, so...

M57

Lyra is often pretty high from our neck of the woods and M57 is a lot less of a fuzzy thing than many other objects.

I'd suggest getting a bit more involved in planning your own target list, for example look at the Messier list on Wikipedia and sort the table by constellation. Figure out which constellations are favourable and pick some easier Messier objects to start with. The Messier Marathon Planner http://calgary.rasc.ca/darksky/messierplanner.htm is handy because it tells you which ones are easy to spot and which are difficult. You don't need to do a marathon to get some good info from this site.

For me, star hopping to a target is part of the fun (assuming a successful outcome anyway), albeit now using Stellarium on a tablet rather than a paper sky atlas.

Stick with it

[Louis D]

The Caldwell catalog is another good resource for showpiece objects missed by Messier.

[Voyager 3]

7 hours ago, Louis D said:

The Caldwell catalog is another good resource for showpiece objects missed by Messier.

It is also in the order of their declination , so you can choose the first 40 or 50 and they will be high in your skies .

[Stu1smartcookie]

On 08/11/2020 at 23:12, BrendanC said:

I pretty quickly gave up on observing when I realised that most of the things worth seeing were only viewable when imaging. Planetary is possible, but so rare. given the suitable position of a planet and the weather in the UK. I like 'seeing what is unseeable', which is pretty much most of the sky, at any time of the year weather-willing, but only through imaging.

Fair point about the amount you can "see" through imaging , but , there is still loads to see in the sky with your eyes through a telescope and not a camera . Of course a lot of people are put off imaging because of the processing and the higher cost of a decent imaging rig . There is a place for both in astronomy ... maybe the OP might go down that route in the future but learning the night sky and learning to see objects in it is priceless imo . 

[Gfamily]

When using a list for planning, you still need to consider surface brightness, as some things disappear as your skies get more light polluted, and many galaxies (for example) just get lost away from dark sky sites.

This is a mock up of the difference seen between a Brecon Beacons dark sky site and my home skies (outskirts of a town).

It's M13 which is one of the easier objects to pick out under urban skies, so you can see that fainter DSOs could well be more or less invisible.

 

[John]

Quite a lot of the sights that visual astronomy provides could be thought of as unimpressive on the face of it. A faint smudge of light, a subtle darkening or brighter spot on a small planetary disk, a barely visible point of light.

But when a little understanding of what is being observed is added to the mix then the visible evidence takes on a lot more fascination.

The smudge of light is a galaxy whose light has taken millions or tens of millions of years to reach us or maybe a newly discovered comet that is soon to whisk off into the depths of the solar system never to return in our lifetimes. 

The contrast variation on a planetary disk is a massive storm system that has raged for over 300 years or maybe a canyon 4000 km long and 200 km across.

The pinpoint of light is a rocky, icy ball orbiting a distant gas giant millions of KM away or maybe a massive star reaching the end of it's life in a supernova explosion that outshines every other star it it's home galaxy.

This stuff can be seen with amateur telescopes and our own eyes if we put our minds to it. It's what keeps me in this crazy hobby

Edited November 11, 2020 by John

[Stu1smartcookie]

27 minutes ago, John said:

This stuff can be seen with amateur telescopes and our own eyes if we put our minds to it. It's what keeps me in this crazy hobby

And the rest of us too! What fascinates me , and what i was talking  to non astronomers at work about  today , is the sheer vastness of equipment , and the fact that someone with the least expensive set up can participate visually in our wonderful hobby  , on equal terms with someone who has the biggest scope and best eye pieces . A good pair of binoculars indeed our own eyes used at a dark site will be more satisfying viewing than a large scope in a heavy light polluted garden . There are no real rights and wrongs . Yes there are scopes that cater for various aspects of astronomy better than others but at the end of the day , as long as you are looking up , you are participating in what is the most fascinating hobby in our world , er and out of this world , if you get my drift . 

[orions_boot]

23 hours ago, MercianDabbler said:

I don't think anybody said M57 yet, so...

M57

Lyra is often pretty high from our neck of the woods and M57 is a lot less of a fuzzy thing than many other objects.

 

Second this and recommend it for the person who is disappointed.  Lyra is a good one to plan your own trip around and was my first proper planned trip the other night.

It is easier if you have a printed chart I think otherwise you could probably plot it out on a piece of paper as it is so small and easy.

https://theskylive.com/sky/constellations/lyra-constellation

 I will gift you my plan:

Epsilon Lyrae and try split each double again or not, up to you.  Go to Vega then track down to Beta Lyrae and check you're there by seeing it is another double.  Scan left along a straight line and you will see the smudge of M57 (ring neb).  Zoom in as much as you can.  Then continue left and down towards the bottom star of Cygnus - Albireo.  ON the way you should find another faint smudge M56 (glob cluster).  

Bobs your uncle. It is quite easy to identify exactly what you have seen because there is nothing else there to confuse things with.   Assuming you are still working out what to do and how to move things that it is about an hours work in my experience.

Another one with loads of stuff possibly a step up from Lyra in difficult is 

https://theskylive.com/sky/constellations/cassiopeia-constellation

I had a go but struggled because there is so much stuff I can't tell whats what except for NGC 457.

[timothy4]

On 09/11/2020 at 09:22, JOC said:

Sometimes I've noted the ability of the sky to be quite clear where there is something of interest - like Mars, but for the rest of the sky to seem empty due to the presence of clouds/fog elsewhere which are sufficiently similar to the colour of the night sky that you don't even realise they are there.  Then just as you get something in focus and think you are onto something those same clouds do the dirty on you whilst you are concentrating on your goal and slide it out of sight or obstruct your view.  There aren't many times outside that you get those perfect conditions that are needed for unobstructed viewing.

Thank you White Dwarf, that is worth knowing

Edited November 14, 2020 by timothy4
spelling

[timothy4]

On 09/11/2020 at 15:55, Tiny Clanger said:

Just a thought about those steep hills you mention , it is possible with a bit of faff and photoshop, to add your own ground image to the downloaded version of Stellarium ( it was easy on the old version I've had for years, but a bit of a struggle for a non- computery fool like me on a new version on a windows10 machine. ) My suburban garden faces south, and there's one whacking great evergreen tree obstructing the exact middle of my view, so the personalized foreground (once adjusted to be as accurately lined up as possible) lets me check on the computer what will be visible (clouds willing) at any time I choose. 

 

Thank you for the advice