Observing Disappointment

[timothy4]

Hello to everybody on the forum.  I am a newbie and after literally decades of putting it off recently bought my first scope after beng gifted some money; I bought a 150mm Celestron Nexstar Evolution and used it for the first couple of times during the week.  I live on the edge of Stroud; a moderate sized market town in rural Gloucestershire so there is some lght polution but not the worst.

I alighed the telescope and took the sky tour and literally the only thing I could see (trying both eyepieces) was Mars.  I feel very disappointed as about 25 years ago I bought my wife a Tasco refractor telescope from Argos and using simple star charts got amazing views of Saturn and Jupiter from our home in SE London!  These planets were not observable from my location using my Evolution during the week but I am keen to compare with the old Tasco refractor when they are above the steep hills which are close to my home.  I was also outside at around 4am in September at a site near Coventry doing a dawn bat survey (I am an ecologist) and for the first time ever saw the Orion Nebula and just with my naked eye!  Was even better through my binoculars.  

Being a very prudent person to the point where it took me 25 years to buy my own scope I have surprised myself that I obviously had somewhat unrealistic expectations of my Evolution scope.  I would have thought I could see at least a few of the sky tour objects but saw literally nothing apart from Mars.   My inconsistent observing experiences that I have outlined are quite confusing!  I was going to post about what I can do about this observing disappointment and have just seen an excellent post on here with practical information and which more or less  answers the question but any feedback welcome.  

Thank you for your time and for reading this if you have got this far

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by timothy4

[John]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Light pollution will not affect the views of the planets much.

Can you say a bit more about how you were disappointed with the views of Mars with the Nexstar Evolution 150mm ?

You should get something that looks a bit like this with the scope cooled down and using around 200x magnification (an eyepiece of around 7.5mm focal length):

Seeing the contrast of the features does take some practice.

Edited November 8, 2020 by John

[timothy4]

7 minutes ago, John said:

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Light pollution will not affect the views of the planets much.

Can you say a bit more about how you were disappointed with the views of Mars with the Nexstar Evolution 150mm ?

You should get something that looks a bit like this with the scope cooled down and using around 200x magnification (an eyepiece of around 7.5mm focal length):

Seeing the contrast of the features does take some practice.

Hi, thanks for the reply.  I was disappointed with the view of Mars as I found it underwhelming, small and blurry; however, I thought I could sometimes see some dark areas which was pleasing but not sure if I was seing things.  It was nowhere near as good as the view in your pic.  The scope only came with 40mm and 13mm eyepieces; scope focal length is 1.5m so that equates to  38x and 115x magnification respectively.  Scape was cooled down with very good oberving coditions, pickering, seeing etc.

[John]

The view will be small as it is with all the planets.

The blurriness could be seeing conditions which have been very variable due to the Jetstream. You sometimes only see good detail and contrast for fleeting moments between the less distinct views. That is often the nature of planetary observing.

Spending some time at the eyepiece gives you more chance of seeing these moments of sharp and contrasty views.

One other issue could be the collimation of the scope. I only say "could" because it might not be this. If the collimation of an SCT is out the sharpness and contrast visible are reduced.

You might benefit from a 10mm or an 8mm eyepiece to boost the image scale of the planets but if the view is blurry at lower magnifications, using higher ones will only make this worse.

An SCT typically needs 30-40 minutes of cooling down time if it's kept in the house. More for the larger apertures.

Were you getting any dewing on the corrector plate ?. Without dew sheilds / dew bands, this can be a common issue with SCT's.

[Stu]

Welcome to the forum Tim.

You have bought a very capable scope so I’m sure it is just a matter of spending time to get the best out of it.

Observational astronomy in the UK is a game of patience, perseverance and at times sheer bloody mindedness! The challenges of the weather and seeing conditions have to be faced all the time.

Several things could have resulted in poor views. First off was your alignment definitely correct? Did you try sending the scope to some bright stars to check it was finding them ok?

Second point is cooling, the scope should be out to cool for 45 mins or longer to get the best higher power views. Dew can also be a big problem at this time of year, so a dew shield and even a dew heater may be necessary to keep the front plate clear. I assume that wasn’t a problem in this case?

Keep at it and try for objects like the Orion Nebula which should look very good even with some light pollution. This is a very good thread to read too.

 

[Stu]

22 minutes ago, timothy4 said:

Hi, thanks for the reply.  I was disappointed with the view of Mars as I found it underwhelming, small and blurry; however, I thought I could sometimes see some dark areas which was pleasing but not sure if I was seing things.  It was nowhere near as good as the view in your pic.  The scope only came with 40mm and 13mm eyepieces; scope focal length is 1.5m so that equates to  38x and 115x magnification respectively.  Scape was cooled down with very good oberving coditions, pickering, seeing etc.

As John says, a higher power eyepiece should help. I am often viewing Mars at between x250 and x360 in my scopes when conditions allow.

Seeing conditions vary a lot, so keep watching for extended periods and you will catch the good moments when the views can be excellent.

The scope should be in collimation, but it is well worth just checking this as it can impact planetary views a lot of it is out.

[Carbon Brush]

Hi Timothy. Welcome to the forum.

All of the earlier posts have given good advice.

Be patient and take the time to learn how to use the scope.
Accept some nights (though apparently clear) are better than others.

Before going out, have an idea of some easy targets to get you started before moving to more challenging targets..
If the easy targets don't look good, you know there is no point in going for more obscure or difficult targets.
That is a very good way to avoid spending all night chasing unrealistic views.

A caveat to the above. Sky quality varies with time. In a previous 'good for Mars' year a local astro society were holding a public Mars viewing evening, which I decided to attend.
Before setting out I took a look through my scope, decided the viewing was poor, but set out anyway as I had never seen the 'big scope'.
At the club (25 miles away) I had some excellent views of Mars. Making me I wonder if my scope was 'off'.
Returning home some hours later, I set up my scope again and the views were even better than those in the club scope.

HTH, David.

[timothy4]

1 hour ago, John said:

The view will be small as it is with all the planets.

The blurriness could be seeing conditions which have been very variable due to the Jetstream. You sometimes only see good detail and contrast for fleeting moments between the less distinct views. That is often the nature of planetary observing.

Spending some time at the eyepiece gives you more chance of seeing these moments of sharp and contrasty views.

One other issue could be the collimation of the scope. I only say "could" because it might not be this. If the collimation of an SCT is out the sharpness and contrast visible are reduced.

You might benefit from a 10mm or an 8mm eyepiece to boost the image scale of the planets but if the view is blurry at lower magnifications, using higher ones will only make this worse.

An SCT typically needs 30-40 minutes of cooling down time if it's kept in the house. More for the larger apertures.

Were you getting any dewing on the corrector plate ?. Without dew sheilds / dew bands, this can be a common issue with SCT's.

Thanks, that all makes good sense.  The forecast said seeing conditions were meant to be reasonable/good  but of course it is only a forecast and hard to accurately predict local conditions.   Useful to learnt that I need to spend time at the eyepiece and  I will bear in mind the collimation too.  

I thought another eyepiece or two or more specifically a 2x Barlow may help but am also mindful of making bluriness worse.  Cooling down time should have been fine but it was forecast dewy on the first observing night; I wrapped the tube in cardboard.  Images on the secod night were just as blurry as the first night but the dew point was lower.  I think the upshot is I need a dew shield to eliminate/ reduce this possible cause of poor observations.

[Space Hopper]

I would not bother with a Barlow etc with an SCT.

Look at investing in some carefully selected eyepieces instead.

[timothy4]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Welcome to the forum Tim.

You have bought a very capable scope so I’m sure it is just a matter of spending time to get the best out of it.

Observational astronomy in the UK is a game of patience, perseverance and at times sheer bloody mindedness! The challenges of the weather and seeing conditions have to be faced all the time.

Several things could have resulted in poor views. First off was your alignment definitely correct? Did you try sending the scope to some bright stars to check it was finding them ok?

Second point is cooling, the scope should be out to cool for 45 mins or longer to get the best higher power views. Dew can also be a big problem at this time of year, so a dew shield and even a dew heater may be necessary to keep the front plate clear. I assume that wasn’t a problem in this case?

Keep at it and try for objects like the Orion Nebula which should look very good even with some light pollution. This is a very good thread to read too.

 

Thank you for the reply and encouraging comment about my scope.  I thought alighnment was spot on as I panned around in the sky tour at various inntended objects none of which I could see and when I panned back to Mars several times the planet ended up in the middle of my eyepiece.  I don’t think there were dew and cooling issues but could be wrong; I think a dew shield and lomg cooling down period would be sensible precautions.  Yes, I love Orion nebula so will definitely keep at it and thanks for the link; I will read with interest (if I have not already read it). 

[timothy4]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

As John says, a higher power eyepiece should help. I am often viewing Mars at between x250 and x360 in my scopes when conditions allow.

Seeing conditions vary a lot, so keep watching for extended periods and you will catch the good moments when the views can be excellent.

The scope should be in collimation, but it is well worth just checking this as it can impact planetary views a lot of it is out.

Thank you for the reply and useful comments which I will definitely bear in mind.

[timothy4]

8 minutes ago, Space Hopper said:

I would not bother with a Barlow etc with an SCT.

Look at investing in some carefully selected eyepieces instead.

Thank you for your comment; why would carefully selected eyepieces be better than a Barlow; is it due to the light reduction you get with a Barlow?

[timothy4]

1 hour ago, Carbon Brush said:

Hi Timothy. Welcome to the forum.

All of the earlier posts have given good advice.

Be patient and take the time to learn how to use the scope.
Accept some nights (though apparently clear) are better than others.

Before going out, have an idea of some easy targets to get you started before moving to more challenging targets..
If the easy targets don't look good, you know there is no point in going for more obscure or difficult targets.
That is a very good way to avoid spending all night chasing unrealistic views.

A caveat to the above. Sky quality varies with time. In a previous 'good for Mars' year a local astro society were holding a public Mars viewing evening, which I decided to attend.
Before setting out I took a look through my scope, decided the viewing was poor, but set out anyway as I had never seen the 'big scope'.
At the club (25 miles away) I had some excellent views of Mars. Making me I wonder if my scope was 'off'.
Returning home some hours later, I set up my scope again and the views were even better than those in the club scope.

HTH, David.

Thank you for that David.  I think the right approach to observing is obviously key and think I learned that this week.  I need to have a more considered approach.  Very interesting comment about Mars.  I am beginning to appreciate the fleeting nature of seeing conditions and had not really fully considered this.  

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @timothy4 and welcome to SGL. 

As your Celestron Nexstar is an SCT, do leave it time to acclimatise. I have a 150mm SCT and a 105mm Maksutov and I allow a minimum
of thirty minutes before putting in an e/p and start observing. As they are notorious 'dew-magnets' a dew shield is a must have accessory.

[Louis D]

You should be able to see the Pleiades (M45) and the Orion nebula (M42) at the least.  You might need to pan around a bit to see M45 due to its size and your scope's long focal length.  They trail Mars by several hours in a similar region of the sky, so you might need to stay up late enough for them to be visible.  Uranus, though tiny, should also be visible between Mars and the Pleiades as a tiny green dot once magnified enough.  The Andromeda galaxy (M31) should at least show its cigar shaped core and possibly its two companion dwarf galaxies' cores.  The Double Cluster (NGC884 and NGC889) should also be obvious once you can see M45.  Once the moon is back in the evening sky, take an evening to tour around it.  On each successive night, note how the terminator line changes as different features are side lit.

My point is, not every object is easy to see.  There are certain showpiece objects that are large and bright enough to be visible under just about any conditions.  Learn what these are, use planetarium software to determine when they will be visible and where on the sky to make sure you have an unobstructed view, and then use the software on your scope to go after them.  Much of the joy of astronomy is hunting down objects and confirming you at least detected them.  That's how I approach comet hunting in particular since they mostly tend to hang out in the twilight murk near the sun.  You may need to manually slew your scope back and forth a bit to detect faint fuzzy patches once the computer puts you on target.  Your brain's ability to pick out a moving target is much better than its ability to pick out a static target.  Ever notice how much easier it is to see a camouflaged animal when it moves or at least flinches?

[timothy4]

25 minutes ago, Philip R said:

Hi @timothy4 and welcome to SGL. 

As your Celestron Nexstar is an SCT, do leave it time to acclimatise. I have a 150mm SCT and a 105mm Maksutov and I allow a minimum
of thirty minutes before putting in an e/p and start observing. As they are notorious 'dew-magnets' a dew shield is a must have accessory.

Thank you, will definitely beart that in mind

[timothy4]

4 minutes ago, Louis D said:

You should be able to see the Pleiades (M45) and the Orion nebula (M42) at the least.  You might need to pan around a bit to see M45 due to its size and your scope's long focal length.  They trail Mars by several hours in a similar region of the sky, so you might need to stay up late enough for them to be visible.  Uranus, though tiny, should also be visible between Mars and the Pleiades as a tiny green dot once magnified enough.  The Andromeda galaxy (M31) should at least show its cigar shaped core and possibly its two companion dwarf galaxies' cores.  The Double Cluster (NGC884 and NGC889) should also be obvious once you can see M45.  Once the moon is back in the evening sky, take an evening to tour around it.  On each successive night, note how the terminator line changes as different features are side lit.

My point is, not every object is easy to see.  There are certain showpiece objects that are large and bright enough to be visible under just about any conditions.  Learn what these are, use planetarium software to determine when they will be visible and where on the sky to make sure you have an unobstructed view, and then use the software on your scope to go after them.  Much of the joy of astronomy is hunting down objects and confirming you at least detected them.  That's how I approach comet hunting in particular since they mostly tend to hang out in the twilight murk near the sun.  You may need to manually slew your scope back and forth a bit to detect faint fuzzy patches once the computer puts you on target.  Your brain's ability to pick out a moving target is much better than its ability to pick out a static target.  Ever notice how much easier it is to see a camouflaged animal when it moves or at least flinches?

Thank you, that al makes good sense and I think showpiece objects are where it is at for me so good to approach my observing in this way.  I wiil use my planetarium software as you say.  I was hoping Saturn, Jupiter and the moon would be visible but alas not the other night, not for me at least; the steep surrounding hills probably obscure quite a lot.  Judicious use of my planetarium software is much needed!

Think with all the useful comments on here that I am beginning to join the dots now.  

[markse68]

Hi Tim, good luck with your new scope- I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom of any issues that are causing the disappointment with a bit of time

I now religiously check the jetstream forecast (as well as 2 weather forecasts) as it really has a huge impact on seeing- I’m using this

https://www.netweather.tv/charts-and-data/jetstream

It’s a forecast though so not necessarily perfect but does seem to fit my observations quite well.

If you’re not seeing anything at all but Mars it does sound  like something may be off on your alignment/setup of the goto. Have you got an app like SkySafari or Stellarium on your phone you could use to sanity check your scope is pointing roughly where it should be?

Good luck and clear skies

Mark

[Zermelo]

Hello Timothy,

apart from planets, can you remember any of the other objects that were in the Tour?

I'm wondering if the alignment was so far off that they weren't actually in the field of view, but that sounds unlikely if you were using a 40mm eyepiece and saw Mars - did the scope position it near the centre of view, or did you need to adjust significantly?

[Stu]

4 hours ago, timothy4 said:

Thank you for your comment; why would carefully selected eyepieces be better than a Barlow; is it due to the light reduction you get with a Barlow?

The SCT already has quite a long focal length, so you can easily achieve high enough power with an eyepiece on its own eg an 8mm eyepiece will give you x187 which is a good place for planetary observing. A 5mm gives x300 which will be all you ever need on the best nights, so, no need for a barlow.

You may have said already but which eyepieces do you have?

[Zermelo]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

The SCT already has quite a long focal length, so you can easily achieve high enough power with an eyepiece on its own eg an 8mm eyepiece will give you x187 which is a good place for planetary observing. A 5mm gives x300 which will be all you ever need on the best nights, so, no need for a barlow.

You may have said already but which eyepieces do you have?

OP said 40mm and 13mm

[timothy4]

6 hours ago, markse68 said:

Hi Tim, good luck with your new scope- I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom of any issues that are causing the disappointment with a bit of time

I now religiously check the jetstream forecast (as well as 2 weather forecasts) as it really has a huge impact on seeing- I’m using this

https://www.netweather.tv/charts-and-data/jetstream

It’s a forecast though so not necessarily perfect but does seem to fit my observations quite well.

If you’re not seeing anything at all but Mars it does sound  like something may be off on your alignment/setup of the goto. Have you got an app like SkySafari or Stellarium on your phone you could use to sanity check your scope is pointing roughly where it should be?

Good luck and clear skies

Mark

Thank you Mark.  Useful to know about the jetstream effect.  I have a copy of Skyportal on my phone and will definitely double check my alignment next time even though I think it was okay last time

[timothy4]

5 hours ago, Zermelo said:

Hello Timothy,

apart from planets, can you remember any of the other objects that were in the Tour?

I'm wondering if the alignment was so far off that they weren't actually in the field of view, but that sounds unlikely if you were using a 40mm eyepiece and saw Mars - did the scope position it near the centre of view, or did you need to adjust significantly?

Hi, the only other possible view was of Andromeda galaxy but am very unsure about it even though I thought I could see a very faint smudge.  The scope positioned Mars pretty central in both eyepieces whenever I slewed back to it so lack of proper alignment seems unlikely as you say.

[timothy4]

3 hours ago, Stu said:

The SCT already has quite a long focal length, so you can easily achieve high enough power with an eyepiece on its own eg an 8mm eyepiece will give you x187 which is a good place for planetary observing. A 5mm gives x300 which will be all you ever need on the best nights, so, no need for a barlow.

You may have said already but which eyepieces do you have?

Thank you Supernova that makes good sense.  The scope came with 40mm and 13mm eyepieces.  I heard some advice to avoid cheap short focal length eyepieces so if I went for a 5mm would make sure it was at a mid price point.

[John]

18 minutes ago, timothy4 said:

Thank you Supernova that makes good sense.  The scope came with 40mm and 13mm eyepieces.  I heard some advice to avoid cheap short focal length eyepieces so if I went for a 5mm would make sure it was at a mid price point.

The 8mm will be much more use than the 5mm on most nights. The BST Starguiders are pretty good eyepieces for their cost and are available in both those focal lengths:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces.htm

That faint smudge might have been the Andromeda Galaxy. Like most things, visually it looks nothing like as spectacular as the images you see of it. It's also a very large object so with the F/10 SCT scope you will probably have just been looking at a portion of it.

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by John