Advice needed on Altair Hypercam 183C PRO

[Budgie1]

I'm looking for some advice on the Altair Hypercam 183C PRO.

I'll try to cover all the bases here:

First the gear - SW EQ5 Pro mount, main scope is the SW Evostar 100ED with a 0.85 reducer/flattener, I also have a Celestron 102mm Wide View refractor. Guiding is covered by a Celectron 9x50 finder with a ZWO ASI 120MM Mini camera.

I only image DSO's from a Bortle 2 location.

I currently have a standard Canon EOS 2000D DSLR camera but want to take my imaging further. The EOS 2000D is less than 6 months old and I do use it for normal terrestrial photography so I don't want to have it modded.

I do want to stick with a colour camera due to available imaging time. I quite often work away or during the evenings, so going for a mono camera with filters is too time consuming and I'm willing to live with sticking to colour. 

I've been researching available cameras in my price range (about £500) and the best "Bang for your bucks" seems to be the Altair Hypercam 183C. As I see it, it has a large sensor with a good size FOV for the scopes I have. Anything smaller with the EQ5 and the guiding won't cope as well.

This has a build-it fan for sensor cooling, where as other makes in the same price range don't. 

The advice I'm looking for is:

• Will there be any issues using this camera with my scopes/mount?
• Will the small sensor pixel size be restrictive with the 100ED with the 900 or 765mm focal lengths?
• Does anyone have any other camera options to suggest which I may have overlooked?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

[newbie alert]

How about a zwo asi533?

[knobby]

£900 😟 he said £500.

The 183 is a nice camera but suffers from amp glow, the cooling is only fan so not consistent . Might have to up the budget, go second hand route or try a modded DSLR ?

[vlaiv]

If there is any flexibility in the budget - look at 294 offering - preferably cooled.

That is going to be better match (also larger sensor).

[Budgie1]

9 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

How about a zwo asi533?

That would be lovely, but it's about £400 more than I have at the moment.

3 minutes ago, knobby said:

The 183 is a nice camera but suffers from amp glow, the cooling is only fan so not consistent . Might have to up the budget, go second hand route or try a modded DSLR ?

 I thought about a modded DSLR but looking at the prices of even some second hand ones I came to the conclusion that going for a dedicated camera of the same price would be a better investment.

I am open to second hand, the main thing at the moment is to make sure I get the right sensor for the kit as I don't want to end up with a nice camera and FOV so small that my mount/guiding setup can't handle it.

[Budgie1]

3 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

If there is any flexibility in the budget - look at 294 offering - preferably cooled.

That is going to be better match (also larger sensor).

The Altair Hypercam 294C Pro is only £599, which could be within budget.

Thanks for the suggestion. 👍

[newbie alert]

12 hours ago, knobby said:

£900 😟 he said £500.

The 183 is a nice camera but suffers from amp glow, the cooling is only fan so not consistent . Might have to up the budget, go second hand route or try a modded DSLR ?

Second hand a 183 is around 500, thought the 533 was a cheaper option.. I have in my head that a 183 is around £1000 and the 533 £900

[PeterCPC]

Also bear in mind that the Altair cameras do not come with spacers like the ZWO cameras do.

Peter

[Budgie1]

1 hour ago, newbie alert said:

Second hand a 183 is around 500, thought the 533 was a cheaper option.. I have in my head that a 183 is around £1000 and the 533 £900

The ZWO ASI 183 is just over £1000 but the Altair is £499, hence why I'm looking at these.   I know they only have fan cooling and not the tech cooling but I can live with that for what I'll be doing.

1 hour ago, PeterCPC said:

Also bear in mind that the Altair cameras do not come with spacers like the ZWO cameras do.

Peter

Thanks Peter, I'd seen they come with the standard 2" nose piece but I'm not sure yet if I'll need any spacers or not. Is there a way to work out if spacer are required?

[vlaiv]

3 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

The ZWO ASI 183 is just over £1000 but the Altair is £499, hence why I'm looking at these.   I know they only have fan cooling and not the tech cooling but I can live with that for what I'll be doing.

If you don't want to have set point cooling, then you don't really need active cooling at all.

Set point cooling has edge over regular cooling - either active, like a small fan or passive - just having aluminum heat sink - and camera body acts as aluminum heat sink. It provides repeatable temperature.

With fan or passive cooling, sensor temperature will depend on ambient temperature.

TEC cooling with set point will bring camera to exact temperature regardless (for the most part - it can only reach deltaT below ambient, where deltaT is camera specific) of ambient temperature.

This means that with TEC cooling you can get perfect darks. You set your camera to certain temperature like -10C or 0C or even 5C - it does not really matter - and you take darks that match your lights taken at same temperature.

Dark current noise is very small for the most part and advantage is not so much in going below zero - advantage is much more in having stable and repeatable temperature for both lights and darks.

ZWO ASI 183 that is comparable to that Altair is actually £548 vs £499:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-183mc-usb-3-colour-camera.html

 

[PeterCPC]

17 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

The ZWO ASI 183 is just over £1000 but the Altair is £499, hence why I'm looking at these.   I know they only have fan cooling and not the tech cooling but I can live with that for what I'll be doing.

Thanks Peter, I'd seen they come with the standard 2" nose piece but I'm not sure yet if I'll need any spacers or not. Is there a way to work out if spacer are required?

Ask what the back focus is for the 183 - I suspect that it's the same as the ZWO183. It gets quite complicated.

Peter

[Budgie1]

8 minutes ago, PeterCPC said:

Ask what the back focus is for the 183 - I suspect that it's the same as the ZWO183. It gets quite complicated.

Peter

The back focus of the Altair 183 and 294 are both quoted as 12.5mm from the front flange to the sensor on the website.

[Budgie1]

15 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

If you don't want to have set point cooling, then you don't really need active cooling at all.

Set point cooling has edge over regular cooling - either active, like a small fan or passive - just having aluminum heat sink - and camera body acts as aluminum heat sink. It provides repeatable temperature.

With fan or passive cooling, sensor temperature will depend on ambient temperature.

TEC cooling with set point will bring camera to exact temperature regardless (for the most part - it can only reach deltaT below ambient, where deltaT is camera specific) of ambient temperature.

This means that with TEC cooling you can get perfect darks. You set your camera to certain temperature like -10C or 0C or even 5C - it does not really matter - and you take darks that match your lights taken at same temperature.

Dark current noise is very small for the most part and advantage is not so much in going below zero - advantage is much more in having stable and repeatable temperature for both lights and darks.

ZWO ASI 183 that is comparable to that Altair is actually £548 vs £499:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-183mc-usb-3-colour-camera.html

 

Thanks for the info Vlaiv, it's making more sense about the advantages of TEC cooling.

I think, after your previous suggestion, the 294 is more suited to my equipment and needs. So that's the primary at the moment.

More reading and research required but thanks for everyone's input so far.

[PeterCPC]

4 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

The back focus of the Altair 183 and 294 are both quoted as 12.5mm from the front flange to the sensor on the website.

It says "Sensor surface distance from flat end of CS-mount adapter: 12.5 mm" - that's not the back focus distance. For instance, this is the ZWO 183 details:

Ask what the back focus distance is.

Peter

[newbie alert]

3 hours ago, Budgie1 said:

The ZWO ASI 183 is just over £1000 but the Altair is £499, hence why I'm looking at these.   I know they only have fan cooling and not the tech cooling but I can live with that for what I'll be doing.

 

Altair were really slow to introduce the Tec cooling , zwo and qhy both had them way beforehand.. if be asking myself why a tec model is double the price , it's not the same thing otherwise no one would buy the Tec models

[Adam J]

19 hours ago, Budgie1 said:

I'm looking for some advice on the Altair Hypercam 183C PRO.

I'll try to cover all the bases here:

First the gear - SW EQ5 Pro mount, main scope is the SW Evostar 100ED with a 0.85 reducer/flattener, I also have a Celestron 102mm Wide View refractor. Guiding is covered by a Celectron 9x50 finder with a ZWO ASI 120MM Mini camera.

I only image DSO's from a Bortle 2 location.

I currently have a standard Canon EOS 2000D DSLR camera but want to take my imaging further. The EOS 2000D is less than 6 months old and I do use it for normal terrestrial photography so I don't want to have it modded.

I do want to stick with a colour camera due to available imaging time. I quite often work away or during the evenings, so going for a mono camera with filters is too time consuming and I'm willing to live with sticking to colour. 

I've been researching available cameras in my price range (about £500) and the best "Bang for your bucks" seems to be the Altair Hypercam 183C. As I see it, it has a large sensor with a good size FOV for the scopes I have. Anything smaller with the EQ5 and the guiding won't cope as well.

This has a build-it fan for sensor cooling, where as other makes in the same price range don't. 

The advice I'm looking for is:

• Will there be any issues using this camera with my scopes/mount?
• Will the small sensor pixel size be restrictive with the 100ED with the 900 or 765mm focal lengths?
• Does anyone have any other camera options to suggest which I may have overlooked?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Honestly I think that the 183c is a hard sell now in comparison to either a IMX294 based camera or the IMX533 based ASI533mc pro. At the focal lenght and F-ratio you are looking at larger pixels will help.

Adam

[Budgie1]

Hi Adam,

Yep, that's the conclusion I've now come too with the help of the others on here. I'm now looking at the Altair Hypercam 294C Pro.

Much as I would like to go for a TEC cooled version, I neither have nor can justify the extra spend. I'll keep an eye on the second hand market, just in case, but thanks to everyone who's imparted their knowledge. It's been a worthwhile task and I'll let you know how I get on.

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, Budgie1 said:

Hi Adam,

Yep, that's the conclusion I've now come too with the help of the others on here. I'm now looking at the Altair Hypercam 294C Pro.

Much as I would like to go for a TEC cooled version, I neither have nor can justify the extra spend. I'll keep an eye on the second hand market, just in case, but thanks to everyone who's imparted their knowledge. It's been a worthwhile task and I'll let you know how I get on.

I would not get an uncooled 294 either, its got really quite high dark current and horrible amp glow that you will not be able to calibrate out without the set point TEC cooling.

Look out for a cooled camera or you may as well stick with the DSLR as the amp glow will just be the bane of your existance. Listen to what others are saying to you above, get TEC cooled or you will buy twice.

Adam

Edited September 28, 2020 by Adam J

[newbie alert]

2 hours ago, Budgie1 said:

Hi Adam,

Yep, that's the conclusion I've now come too with the help of the others on here. I'm now looking at the Altair Hypercam 294C Pro.

Much as I would like to go for a TEC cooled version, I neither have nor can justify the extra spend. I'll keep an eye on the second hand market, just in case, but thanks to everyone who's imparted their knowledge. It's been a worthwhile task and I'll let you know how I get on.

Good luck with whatever you choose Budgie1

[vineyard]

Fwiw, I managed to get an ASI294MCPro 2nd hand from another SGLer for only slightly more than your budget. And its a fantastic camera (for my purposes anyway!) - v happy with it.  Definitely worth waiting for.  I reckon prices will fall further given all the new cameras coming out as folks upgrade.  

[Budgie1]

I think that's the way to go, wait for something to come up on the second hand market.

At least I feel better informed and know what would suit my kit and the pitfalls of none TEC cooled when it comes to these cameras. 👍

[Budgie1]

So, after much thinking, research & watching of YouTube, with assistance from @Adam J , I have come to the conclusion that the best thing for me at the moment is to stick with what I know.

TEC cooled CMOS or CCD cameras are out of my price range. I did see some on the second hand market that were well priced but they didn't suit my current scopes or were mono. If I was building an astrophotography setup from scratch it would be different and I could start with a good camera and then match it to a scope. As it is, I want to stick with the scopes & mount I have because they work for me.

So, this afternoon I ordered a used Canon EOS 1300D from Juan Fierros at Cheap Astrophotography. I've gone for the astro modified version, rather than having the Baader filter installed because it's not needed. This camera will only be for astro work, I have my EOS 2000D for the other photography.

When it arrives and I manage to find a clear night to test it out then I'll post up the results on here. I do intend to keep an eye out for something better, but at least I can start imaging nebulas without missing some of the colour that are in there.  

Also, as I'm not spending as much on the camera, I can now afford to buy Pixinsight as well.   I've been using it with an evaluation licence and I really like the results, compared to my efforts with Photoshop. I can pull out more detail and better colour, so that's next on the cards.

Thanks for everyone's input, it's been a worthwhile exercise. 👍

[Budgie1]

Well, the camera arrived within a week from Juan but it came with clouds in the box. I did manage one sub a few weeks ago but that was it for that evening.

This week I managed two nights of imaging with the Canon EOS 1300D and the results are quite good.

All were taken with the Skywatcher Evostar 100ED + 0.85 reducer/flattener on my EQ5 mount, using APT & PHD2. Stcking in DSS & processed in Pixinsight.

Friday I was setup to image the Eastern Vail but high cloud kept covering that, so I swapped to the Californian Nebula.

This is 28x 300s exposures at ISO 800 with 20x flats & 10x bias.

 

Then, as the seeing was still good and it was the weekend, I swapped to M31. The new camera has brought out the blue & red in outer rings of the galaxy, which I've not captured before.

This is 29x 120s, 30x 60s lights at ISO 800 with the same flats & bias as above.

Lastly for my "First Light" with the camera, I went back to the try the Eastern Vail on Saturday evening and just kept firing off images until the high cloud made it not worth trying.

I managed 20x 300s at ISO 800 again with the same flats & bias. I did try 360s exposures, but by that time the high cloud had started to come in and it didn't improve anything so I didn't use them.

I'm going to try reprocessing this one as I think I went a bit too far with the star colour to try & bring out the nebula but I'm still happy with the results.

[Adam J]

On 27/09/2020 at 22:21, knobby said:

£900 😟 he said £500.

The 183 is a nice camera but suffers from amp glow, the cooling is only fan so not consistent . Might have to up the budget, go second hand route or try a modded DSLR ?

It's odd that the 533 which probably could actually manage without cooling (no amp glow low thermal noise) is one of the only sensors to only have a cooled version. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Adam J

[Budgie1]

On 09/11/2020 at 01:33, Budgie1 said:

I'm going to try reprocessing this one as I think I went a bit too far with the star colour to try & bring out the nebula but I'm still happy with the results.

So here's the reprocessed version and I think it's a lot better.