Difference between cameras with the same sensor

[smr]

So which Camera would you guys go for between the ZWO and QHY ?

[tooth_dr]

Interesting thread.

Recently I've been looking at the ZWO2600 and the QHY268.  Same sensor, but the body of the QHY is designed in such a way that it consumes an extra 6mm of backfocus.  With my current setup of MPCC, OAG and EFW, the QHY camera wont allow the correct backfocus to be maintained.  Unless of course I buy the full QHY EFW and OAG.

[gilesco]

14 minutes ago, smr said:

So which Camera would you guys go for between the ZWO and QHY ?

I only have ZWO cameras, similarly, I only have a ZWO OAG, ZWO Filter Wheel, and a ZWO Helical Focuser for my guide camera.

I have stuck with ZWO as I have not needed to buy any adapters for my imaging train - as soon as I start to mix and match I will have to start buying adapters, and trying to fiddle with getting the right backfocus.

I'm sure that if you bought everything QHY that you would also find yourself in a neat "not needing to buy anything else" position, but when I costed everything I found I could do it with ZWO cheaper than I could do it with QHY, and QHY was over my budget at the time.

 

[tooth_dr]

3 minutes ago, gilesco said:

I'm sure that if you bought everything QHY that you would also find yourself in a neat "not needing to buy anything else" position, but when I costed everything I found I could do it with ZWO cheaper than I could do it with QHY, and QHY was over my budget at the time.

This new QHY268 that I'm after has an extra 6mm adapter needed to actually attach anything to the front of it.  It is replacing a QHY9, but doesnt fit, so even within brands you can encounter problems.

[tomato]

Yes, looks like I will need to resort to making a one off machined adapter to achieve the correct back focus on the RASA 8 and QHY268C, but I was persuaded to go with the QHY because of the additional capture modes knowing a custom adapter would not be a show stopper.

[smr]

I've had my heart set on the 2600 for a while now, but this is a bit disconcerting .... this should not be happening when spending £2k imo.

Just saw this shared on ZWO's fb page.

I have seen a few people with this identical issue and people tell the user it was moisture, frost, dew or ice. In my case, it wasn’t any of those reasons. Today, I swapped out my 1600mm-pro for the 2600mc-pro. I always keep my cameras in a Pelican case with desiccant packages and indoors. When I took the 2600 out, I immediately noticed a substance running down the sensor and that was under the glass cover. It wasn’t there when I put the 2600 away. I stored the 2600 on its side so I’m assuming that is why it looks to be running in one direction. I notified ZWO and decided to clean it up myself. It was a simple 5 minute cleanup. When I wiped it up, it smeared, and was oily. I used PEC PAD non-abrasive wipes and Eclipse Optic Cleaning Fluid. It cleaned up nicely and looks like new again. I also microwaved the four desiccant tablets at 50% power for two minutes to recharge them. I’m not looking to bash a product, but looking to give ideas off this experience if anyone runs into this issue. I’ve had my ASI2600 since January 2020 and this was the first issue I ran into. It’s still my favorite ZWO camera.

 

[gilesco]

On 20/11/2020 at 10:26, smr said:

I've had my heart set on the 2600 for a while now, but this is a bit disconcerting .... this should not be happening when spending £2k imo.

Just saw this shared on ZWO's fb page.

I have seen a few people with this identical issue and people tell the user it was moisture, frost, dew or ice. In my case, it wasn’t any of those reasons. Today, I swapped out my 1600mm-pro for the 2600mc-pro. I always keep my cameras in a Pelican case with desiccant packages and indoors. When I took the 2600 out, I immediately noticed a substance running down the sensor and that was under the glass cover. It wasn’t there when I put the 2600 away. I stored the 2600 on its side so I’m assuming that is why it looks to be running in one direction. I notified ZWO and decided to clean it up myself. It was a simple 5 minute cleanup. When I wiped it up, it smeared, and was oily. I used PEC PAD non-abrasive wipes and Eclipse Optic Cleaning Fluid. It cleaned up nicely and looks like new again. I also microwaved the four desiccant tablets at 50% power for two minutes to recharge them. I’m not looking to bash a product, but looking to give ideas off this experience if anyone runs into this issue. I’ve had my ASI2600 since January 2020 and this was the first issue I ran into. It’s still my favorite ZWO camera.

If it was Oily, then the desiccant wouldn't have been able to prevent it, I wonder what component might have discharged that - a cooling fan perhaps? It would be nice to hear more from the user, on what ZWO said when he notified them etc... and whether that response made him decide to clean it himself.

There might be more comments on Facebook that explain all this, but I don't do Facebook...

Out of interest, just checked my 1600MM imaging train, difficult to see down the field flattener with the LPS filter attached (I keep it as a sealed unit, and never expose filters & sensors to the open air unless I have to, and even then usually end up lightly spraying compressed air around before sealing it all up again), can see the sensor at the end and all looks pretty clean, latest images look fine too.

[smr]

ZWO are looking at the problem. Meanwhile, another user has had the same problem;

 

Thanks for sharing your process. I had my ASI2600 since December last year and it had been a joy to use and I got an ASIWEEK image with it. It started to have this issue last week(less severe but looks exactly the same location and oily). I contacted ZWO and was sent a PDF instruction to open up the camera and clean it up. Mine is bought new from Agena Astro and still under warranty. I had many ZWO products and had thoroughly enjoyed all of them. However this ASI2600 incident and service experience is not one of them. I don’t mind cleaning the sensor, if it is out of warranty. It would also be more responsible for ZWO to investigate such incidents and address any design issue and defective products. It’s a $2,000 camera after all. I have other cameras to use at the meantime and still debating if I should send this back to ZWO or if I should try to clean it. I asked them what if something goes wrong when I try to clean the smudge up? Will that void the remaining warranty? What if the smudge returns? I had not received an answer yet. I like ZWO and their products. I hope they can handle such issue in a more satisfactory way.

[FLO]

4 hours ago, smr said:

It cleaned up nicely and looks like new again ...

... I’ve had my ASI2600 since January 2020 and this was the first issue I ran into. It’s still my favorite ZWO camera.

That is good to hear 🙂 

Here in the UK if a sensor needs cleaning we will happily arrange that, assuming it is one of ours. 

Steve 

[Ken82]

In terms of differences between cameras following what Vlaiv has posted,  here is my 2 cents. 
 

I bought a asi 6200mm some time ago and very pleased with it! One thing that is essential with this large sensor camera is that you’ll likely need to have a method for correcting sensor tilt. The asi 6200 is supplied with a m54 tilt adapter which would potentially work for slow scopes. 
 

A m68 tilt adapter can be purchased for the asi 6200 but it’s unfortunately a bit pointless as you’d likely need to remove the camera to adjust any of the screws and there is also nothing to block light leak between the camera and m68 tilt adapter. 
 

So as an alternative I bought a Gerd Neumann m68 CTU which is superb ! 
 

The new atik APX60 offers something different as it has tilt adjustment screws adapted onto the back of the camera. This is undoubtedly better for a small increase in price. 

I’d say Zwo’s customer support is ok but as they have expanded it’s not as good as it once was. 

Ken 

[smr]

Some images are rolling in of what the Altair 26C can produce now. Impressive looking. Apparantly no dessicant needed, and it will not leak. The images look fine, and its £400 cheaper...

I have seen 4 confirmed leaks of this oily residue on the 2600 sensor now on CN. This imo is just not acceptable at all. There is no debating that there is a fundamental design flaw with the 2600. 

One should not expect to have to go elbows in and taking apart a Camera to clean oil or residue off the sensor in any Camera, especially one that costs £2,000 (!!)

Its a choice between the 268C and the 26C for me now. I'm thinking why the latter of which wouldn't be the one to buy.

[tooth_dr]

1 hour ago, smr said:

Some images are rolling in of what the Altair 26C can produce now. Impressive looking. Apparantly no dessicant needed, and it will not leak. The images look fine, and its £400 cheaper...

I have seen 4 confirmed leaks of this oily residue on the 2600 sensor now on CN. This imo is just not acceptable at all. There is no debating that there is a fundamental design flaw with the 2600. 

One should not expect to have to go elbows in and taking apart a Camera to clean oil or residue off the sensor in any Camera, especially one that costs £2,000 (!!)

Its a choice between the 268C and the 26C for me now. I'm thinking why the latter of which wouldn't be the one to buy.

Can you post links to any info or images?  I'm in the market for a new camera and just debating on what to go for.  The oil is a bit of issue, easily resolved, but shouldnt happen given the stage that ZWO are at in their company evolution.  A repeat of the 1600 perhaps?

Edited November 22, 2020 by tooth_dr

[FLO]

So far, here in the UK we have never seen oil on a 2600 sensor 🙂

Steve 

[gilesco]

21 minutes ago, FLO said:

So far, here in the UK we have never seen oil on a 2600 sensor 🙂

Steve 

Yes, sometimes I think if you go out there looking for problems with a product then you will inevitably be able to find some way of justifying not buying it.

I still think looking at results of particular kit configurations on sites like astrobin is a better way to make a judgement.

[tooth_dr]

16 minutes ago, gilesco said:

Yes, sometimes I think if you go out there looking for problems with a product then you will inevitably be able to find some way of justifying not buying it.

A new product, with limited sales, showing a trend of similar defects, early in it's lifespan? I think it would be sensible to see what way things pan out.

Edited November 22, 2020 by tooth_dr

[smr]

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/739425-zwo-asi2600-mc-issues/#entry10668504

Read for yourself and feel free to make your own mind up. I wasn't looking for problems with the 2600 at all, on the contrary I was very much set on it, I've lost count the amount of reviews I've read of it and how many times I've clicked onto supplier's websites procrastinating over buying one... Rather, I read a post that popped up on my newsfeed on fb on the ZWO page, after reading the comments I discovered it wasn't a one off problem, that thread on CN shows that this is a design flaw with the Camera Build quality.

I think, given that common sense should prevail when parting with a very hard earned £2k, (let's be fair it's a significant amount of money), I'll pass.

If ZWO acknowledged this problem on their website and have fixed the fault in their forthcoming production supply then that's fair enough, but when they don't, well it doesn't exactly instil trust.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by smr

[smr]

1 hour ago, tooth_dr said:

Can you post links to any info or images?  I'm in the market for a new camera and just debating on what to go for.  The oil is a bit of issue, easily resolved, but shouldnt happen given the stage that ZWO are at in their company evolution.  A repeat of the 1600 perhaps?

M42 first attempt with 36 min exposure time only. #hypercam26c 18x120 sec gain 100 offset 20 triplet Apo 80/542 mm

Here is the first result with the new #Hypercam26C a 2 panel mosaic with 20x5 min for each panel, I`ve used gain 100 and offset 20 at -10 degree. Processing in APP and PixInsight. Telescope: 80 mm triplet APO with integrated corrector. Mount: CEM120EC2 without guiding

 

#LDN1251 with #HyperCam26c 45x180sec Gain 100 offset 20 80/542 mm triplet APO CEM120EC2

 

I asked the author of these images how dark his skies are, Bortle 4.

Edited November 22, 2020 by smr

[tooth_dr]

Thanks @smr

[FLO]

I find the psychology in this discussion interesting because I recently experienced the same. At home we are upgrading our XBOX One games console to the newly released Series X. Unfortunately to experience the new consoles full potential we also need a new TV! For three days I read articles, reviews, reports and opinion, trying to convince myself that TVs suitable for gaming all use the same screens (mostly LG or Samsung) so I could simply buy whichever was cheapest. I wanted to believe quality and design of ancillary components, firmware and system integration didn’t matter. If I could persuade myself of this, I would save around £500! I failed. Saying didn’t make it so. It was wishful thinking. The knowledge, experience and manufacturing abilities of brands like LG, Samsung & Sony does result in a better product. 

Now I must decide if this matters to me. Am I prepared to spend the extra. 

Steve

[Davey-T]

5 minutes ago, FLO said:

The knowledge, experience and manufacturing abilities of brands like LG, Samsung & Sony does result in a better product. 

That'll be a no then, recently bought my wife a new LG  "SMART" TV for her bedroom and the damn thing kept switching itself off randomly, spoke to the help line who treated me like some sort of idiot not capable off reading the instructions and disabling all the energy saving  timing out things which I'd already done, filled in an email form and got a reply asking me to attach copies of the invoice and a picture of the shutting down message on the screen, unfortunately there was no provision on their form for attachments, never heard anything  more from them anyway so had to buy an on/off timer to plug it into and turn it on and off every couple of hours to pre-empt it shutting itself down 

My wife is disabled and unable to work the the remote control.

Dave

[FLO]

Were you unable to return it? 

[Allinthehead]

I've had mine since January, I just checked it there and the sensor is pristine. It has been flawless so far. Qhy do seem to make better hardware but they're also not without issues. Quality control is poor with both companies it seems. 

[Davey-T]

8 minutes ago, FLO said:

Were you unable to return it? 

Too much hassle after I'd put the bracket on the wall and fitted it.

Dave

[Allinthehead]

3 hours ago, smr said:

If ZWO acknowledged this problem on their website and have fixed the fault in their forthcoming production supply then that's fair enough, but when they don't, well it doesn't exactly instil trust.

They have history in that respect, the 071 had terrible problems with frost forming on the sensor. They upgraded to a pro saying the problem was resolved and asked customers to pay 300 euro to upgrade, the problem remained in the pro model. If I have any issues with this camera It will be the last I buy from them. 

[Ken82]

10 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

Qhy do seem to make better hardware 

This is what I came upon frequently when searching differences between zwo and Qhy. Although zwo drivers appear to be more reliable. 

 

7 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

They have history in that respect, the 071 had terrible problems with frost forming on the sensor. They upgraded to a pro saying the problem was resolved and asked customers to pay 300 euro to upgrade, the problem remained in the pro model. If I have any issues with this camera It will be the last I buy from them. 

Yep I also had frosting on my 071 pro although that was solved by changing the desiccant tabs and also cooling the sensor over 20+ mins.