Pls help our family choose the right first serious 11" telescope

[aeneas]

Hi all,

we've been enjoying watching moon and planets with our poor old Astromaster 130EQ for years now with kids and they have been begging to upgrade at some point to a serious telescope - maybe even a home observatory. With Mars promising some nice views in October I'm thinking of taking the plunge.

We have a decent suburban location with relatively dark nights... I would only occasionally take the telescope out to the mountains for a weekend of stargazing, but mainly it would stay fixed at home, so transportation is not that critical.

I would almost certainly go for a 11" scope or possibly a 9.25" one. I have a good relationship with a local distributor for Celestron, so can get good price on their scopes. But Celestron has so many different models, costings and mounts that I get lost in options.

Furthermore, after seeing their 60-anniversary rerlease of Nexstar Evolution 8 HD with built-in StarSense, I wonder if they may soon be updating with newer tech also some of the other larger models? Their EdgeHG 11" models seem to have been out there on the market for quite a while so if they get updated in the next year or so with more connected tech that would be quite a bummer not to wait till then. Does anyone of you know if there are any such plans by Celestron in the near future?

So, with that said, what would you recommend as my best option? Priorities as follows:

- 11" preferred, but would consider 9.25"

- live observation will be main use at the start but I would like to be able the system to allow decent astrophotography so we may get into that progressively in the future

- ease of use for amateur family would be highly important with computer control or preferably iphone/ipad control Ideally price range around €5,000 (+/-).

Any other recommendations to consider?

Many thanks in advance!

[nfotis]

Scopes are not really fast-moving technologically, the OTA barely changes over decades.

If you buy the OTA (optical tube assembly) separately, you are not tied to a particular builder, and you can mix-and-match with your preferred mount and computer.

For control via WiFi, the CPC GPS version should be the most automated. I don't know what's the Celestron policy on updating the software of the embedded computer.

If you prefer separate parts, you could use a ZWO ASIair Pro (essentially, a Raspberry Pi embedded computer, which offers lots of capabilities) on an AltAz mount like the AZ6 GTI or somesuch. The integration will take some work, though.

Hope this helps,

N.F.

[jonathan]

I think on the heavier mounts (EQ5 and up) they all have an autoguider port which can be plugged into a computer for software control, and there's the handset-only approach as well of course which generally comes as standard with goto models.  You may be talking about EQ6 for an 11" scope, and definitely look at SCTs rather than newtonian reflectors as they're a lot easier to handle by comparison and at that size should be comparable in performance (from what I've read on forums). 

I don't think a dob base is going to fit your requirements, although still worth a look to cover all options as it might just take your fancy.  Goto is available, particularly for larger dob configurations, but from what I've experienced and read you're probably better off with an EQ6 mount and an 11" SCT.  In dob form you'll probably be looking at a truss design.

Take a look at the EdgeHD OTA and match to your choice of mount.  Personally I like Skywatcher mounts but that's only because that's what I have experience in, and they are white so easier to see in the dark; Celestron CGX mounts tend to be black which seems like an odd choice to me but there you go.

Beware of bundles such as the Celestron C11 SCT VX Goto, while they will work fine you may notice in the small print it states "The Advanced VX mount is strong enough to support this optical tube assembly and a couple of small accessories" which to me translates as 'the mount is almost at it's limit with this OTA sitting on it, there will be some vibration when touching the scope to focus, a couple of accessories and a heavy eyepiece will push it over the limit meaning lots of wobble / vibration at the slightest touch or gust of wind, possible motor strain and louder gear noises'. To get the best experience, especially with a heavier scope, you need to buy far more mount than you may think you need, so EQ6 is the way I would go for 11".  9.25", well... possibly EQ5, but EQ6 will withstand a gale.

Then there are the Celestron fork mounts, I have my reservations about those having owned the 8SE single arm fork mount.  I haven't tried the mount linked to but my 8SE had noisy gearing and it didn't work well when I attached additional items to the OTA, it strained with the additional weight and could not point at the zenith because of the additional length at the back of the OTA (I have a steeltrack focuser, 2" diagonal, and sometimes some large and heavy eyepieces).  If you were thinking about attaching a regular DSLR camera body then you may have the same problem with this style of mount.  This should not be a problem for EQ mounts.  Also, with any Alt-Az mount you're going to need to add a wedge if you wanted to do any kind of serious astrophotography with it (beyond basic short exposures).

My conclusion: seriously look at the EdgeHD 11" or 9.25" on an EQ6 goto mount.  You could save a few quid by looking at the C11 or C9.25 however these are more geared towards visual than photography, I have no doubt that the views through the EdgeHD series will be comparably better for visual too though.  Consider reserving a few hundred for accessories such as eyepieces and probably a 2" diagonal if the scope doesn't come with one - the Explore Scientific 14mm 82 degrees eyepiece works very well in my 8SE.

One thing I notice is that these Celestron SCTs seem to come with the 9x50 finder scope, which is a great finder scope for sure but can be tricky to find things with, luckily there are screw points already included so you can add a red dot finder shoe very easily, helps a lot to find the general area, at which point the target should be visible in the 9x50 finder (assuming they are both aligned to the scope correctly).

Hope that's of some use!

 

PS Also invest in dew prevention - for any SCT of this size you will need a dew shield and at least one dew heater tape around the corrector plate (front, just behind the plastic rim) of the OTA.  I have the HitechAstro 4-channel controller and AstroZap tapes around the OTA front, the finder scope (front and back), and the eyepiece.

PPS StarSense can be added to certain Celestron motorised mounts, as per the description here.

Edited September 20, 2020 by jonathan

[PeterCPC]

You really need to consider what type of astrophotography you will be attempting at some point. This will be "challenging" for DSOs but these scopes will be great for planetary photography. If you lean towards planetary then an Alt/Az mount will be fine and easier to cope with. I use a C9.25 on an AVX and it's fine for planetary imaging but a C11 would be too heavy. also bear in mind the weight of these OTAs - I can just about mange my C9.25.

Peter

[Cosmic Geoff]

Depends what exactly you want to do with it.  The C9.25 and C11 would be great for visual observations regardless of what mount you get.  For planetary imaging you should get a better mount - for the C9.25 that would be at minimum the Evolution mount and the heavy duty tripod.  Or the CPC925 veriant - but be warned that this is very heavy.

The C11 could be used vith various mounts including the CPC1100 setup, which would be good for planetary imaging, but the CPC1100 ota/fork assy is alarmingly heavy. 

You could put either scope on an EQ6 mount, but what for?  A SCT is not suited for beginner's deep space astrophotography.  If you are not going to attempt deep space astrophotography, you can do everything with an alt-az Goto mount which will be much easier to manage. It is rumoured that the reason SCTs are relatively cheap secondhand is that people buy them for astrophotography and after trying it they sell the scope on.

You could get the Edge HD version, but note that the extra correction optics are mainly intended for imaging, and won't do much on a planet in the centre of the field.  On the other hand, some claim that these models perform better visually, and it is rumoured that the Edge HD models are hand-finished in the USA rather than machine finished in China. That may be an Internet rumour though.

The Starsence is a handy time-saving accessory that can be bought separately, but note that I have found that having GPS built into the mount leaves little incentive to fit a Starsense, as the setup work is reduced to aligning on a couple of stars, which is quick and easy with a Nexstar alt-az mount.

I mostly prefer to use handsets rather than the extra complication of cabled computers or wifi tablets.

[nfotis]

Forgot to mention that the combination of the scope and a fork mount (CPC series) is quite heavy (around 65 pounds for the CPC1100, if I remember correctly), excluding the tripod. Carrying it out every night gets old quickly.

For C9.25 and above scopes, I feel that having the OTA separate from the mount is easier to carry, if you are not planning a permanent installation from the start.

For a C9.25, a HEQ5 mount is enough (don't remember the Celestron equivalent). The next mount is the NEQ6, which I think can handle a C11 for visual and (barely) for long exposure astrophotography. A pier is nice, if you plan on a semi-permanent location (the tri-pier from iOptron is an interesting proposal).

You can even mount the huge C14 alone, using the trick on the video below (of course, this requires a heavy mount and a pier for best stability)

 

Hope that this helps,

 

N.F.

 

[StarGazingSiouxsie]

@aeneas

 

I would recommend Celestron's CPC1100. I have one and am very please with it.

It has built in GPS and is double fork mounted so it is very stable. 

The tripod is heavy duty but easy enough to move. 

Moving the OTA (scope part) and the mount (it is permanently mounted in the double forks) is doable but heavy. If you wouldn't need to set up too often and don't need to move more than, say, 20 feet, you should be fine. If you can carry 70lbs 20 feet you'll be fine. 

I have Star Sense with mine and I would thoroughly recommned this investment - it's worth every penny / cent. 

I just wanted to clarify one point you mentioned. You said that the 60th Anniversary Edition (which I have too) comes with "built in" Star Sense. It doesn't - it was just supplied with a regular Star Sense camera that installs to the OTA. You may - perhaps? - have been thinking of the Star Sense Explorer range of telescopes that Celestron brought out in 2020 that utilise smart phones and their Sky Portal apps to help  guide the positioning of the OTA. 

Back to the CPCP1100, I think they are great value for money and they have a deserved reputation for reliability and strurdiness. I think if you got one you'd be very happy with it - just make sure you can move 70lbs short distances.

Lastly, I would say that if you did consider the CPC1100 that you'd be quite happy with the standard non Edge HD optics. Having the Edge optics is nice but, tbh, you can fit a focal reducer to the CPC standard optics that gives just as good views as the Edge optics, IMHO.

Edited September 20, 2020 by StarGazingSiouxsie

[cfpendock]

I bought a CPC 1100 Edge.  It was very heavy, and although it is superb for visual, eventually I wanted to do some astrophotography.  So I took it off the mount to make it into an OTA.  It is now much more manageable, and I use it mounted onto an EQ mount.  In this way, it remains a first class visual scope, but even in my amateurish hands, it can produce the goods for photography - you can see what it can do in some of the images in my album - https://stargazerslounge.com/gallery/album/2996-dso/ . Some of the images were taken with my Tak 106, but the others all with the Edge.

So in my opinion, better to get an OTA only - it is much easier to handle, and one day you might want to do some astrophotography.  For ease of use, unless you are comfortable with an EQ mount, perhaps get an alt-az mount, and change this when you want.  But for astrophotography, don't even think of using a wedge......

Chris

 

[aeneas]

Thanks for all the replies so far! I've been reading further and looking at lots of youtube review and forum reviews. 

I think I'm quite set on 1100 EDGE HD optics; I will be able to handle occasional transportation without a problem for another 20+ years so wouldn't worry about the weight at this moment.

Regarding the mount, I certainly would go for an EQ mount... A-VX certainly not strong enough for 11". Now split between CGEM-II (a price that seems reasonable to me) and CGX-L (seems like absolute winner in terms of mount quality but price is really high and pushing me out of comfort zone...). Would I be doing a great compromise if I chose CGEM-II (and then have a Nikon D750 body mounted plus all the other accessories that will eventually stack up) or will I regret it and should just take the plunge, go all-in and get a CGX-L?

[Cosmic Geoff]

Since budget does not seem to be a problem I would suggest you get an entirely separate outfit for astro imaging, on the lines of a small APO refractor mounted on an equatorial GoTo mount.  That means you can have the C11 on an alt-az mount (eg the CPC1100 package) which will be a lot easier to set up if you don't plan to have it permanently set up in some sort of observatory, and also easier to use.  (and cheaper than the CGX-L package).

If you are determined to get an equatorial mount for the C11, there is no need to restrict yourself to Celestron mounts (unless you can get them at a particularly good price, of course).

[aeneas]

43 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

If you are determined to get an equatorial mount for the C11, there is no need to restrict yourself to Celestron mounts (unless you can get them at a particularly good price, of course).

For the time being I will go with C11 and EQ mount and see where that takes me; might add a companion refractor at some stage, as you suggest, but would not plan for that now.

So, with your comment of moving possibly to other mounts - what would you suggest? I was also looking at EQ6-R Pro but am not sure that would be enough for C11 with a full-frame DSLR body and other accessories mounted, or would it? Any others?

[Merlin66]

The C11 plays well with the NEQ6 mount.

I have C11/ efinder/ Spectrograph/ four cameras etc. and use EQMod/ CdC/ Astroart set-up in the observatory.

Not a transportable set-up!

[cfpendock]

14 hours ago, Merlin66 said:

Not a transportable set-up!

On the other hand, I find this eminently transportable:

 

Chris

[aeneas]

Hi all,

thanks for all the replies and comments so far. Upon much further reading both inside forum threads as well as by online reviewers etc. we came to the following decision: we'll go with the C11 EDGE HD scope mounted on CGX-L to make sure we have a very very solid mount that can handle the weight and all accessories we can throw at it.

The aim: (a) with kids (and friends) the main purpose will be viewing; (b) I will slowly start learning about AP. I will probably start with my Nikon D750 full-frame DSLR but aiming to upgrade to ZWO ASI 2600MC camera in the near future.

Ultimate build: having an observatory dome installed on top of our flat roof; thiking of installing the Pulsar Observatories - just need to decide between the 2.2m and the 2.7m model. The scope would be mounted in the dome most of the time with an occasional transportation to an offsite location.

...as it will likely be more appropriate, I will post a separate question regarding building an observatory dome in the /Equipment/DYI Observatories/ section.

 

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, aeneas said:

having an observatory dome installed on top of our flat roof

Unless your flat roof is covered in sod, heat from the day radiating off of it during the night will ruin your seeing conditions.  Most folks build their observatories well away from buildings for this and other reasons.

[aeneas]

16 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Unless your flat roof is covered in sod, heat from the day radiating off of it during the night will ruin your seeing conditions.  Most folks build their observatories well away from buildings for this and other reasons.

Hmm... no - the roof is covered with gravel. We've often spent long evenings on the roof during the summer and despite a hot day the roof was pleasantly cool - I didn't feel any particular heat radiating. The house itself is a passive house with heavy insulation and active climate control & ventilation so the house accumulates very little heat. But I see your point...

[aeneas]

Hi all,

first I would like to thank all that helped above... Christmas came early and the scope, the mount and a whole bunch of accessories have arrived. I have started a separate thread which will be used to guide through the setting-up process and troubleshooting; which I hope there will be quite some

Please see the post here and please help out if you have some ideas / comments - I will appreciate it very much!
Cheers!