Veil Nebula: Not Seeing It

[jetstream]

Congrats to those who saw the Veil!

[Stu]

Well done Magnus, now you’ve got your eye in it should be easier. I can see it from home (Bortle 7) in my 150p and probably smaller using a Lumicon OIII.

I saw it very well in my 72mm from Wales on holiday a little while back, I think around Mag 21.2 or similar so you should get it ok even in smaller scopes with your skies.

[John]

It's a target that keeps on giving as well. Always worth return visits to see what parts of the complex you can see:

[RobertI]

12 hours ago, Captain Magenta said:

FINALLY I BAGGED IT.

Heritage 130p and Delite 18.2 eyepiece, plus Astronomik Oiii filter. Without the filter, just an (admittedly lovely) starfield. With the filter, WOW there it was, the Eastern section, so clear! A quick shift over to the West, and there, almost as bright, was the Western part. Very pleased. I removed the filter and, now knowing exactly where and what to look for, I could just about make out the Eastern bit. So pleasing too to get it with what is often recommended as the very first scope an aspiring observer will buy.

Clear nights forecast and dark for the next few days, I shall bring more aperture, 12", to bear.

Very pleased, Magnus

Well done Magnus! It's definitely one of those objects that becomes easier to see once you have bagged it IMO. You'll be going back to it again and again. Should be superb in your 12". I tried it tonight with my 120ED + 38mm Panaview e/p + 2" UHC filter, giving a 3.8 degree field of view - the first time I have tried with this combination and I could see the whole complex in the field of view, although not very bright as the transparency was awful. Still some time to get some dark skies for better viewing, but I shall be sad to see it leaving for another year.

[Nyctimene]

On 17/09/2020 at 19:20, jetstream said:

actually any scope will- if things are well matched

I had this in mind, Gerry, as well as Stu's report with the 72 frac, when I took out, just for fun, the "Blue Penguin", a 76/300 Skywatcher Infinity 76 N, to chase the Veil. Conditions were sub-average with a NELM of just 5.0 (UMi). I started, as usual, from 52 Cyg, using a Baader UHC, that fitted quite well into the rubber eyeguard, and could make out the eastern part, partly with direct vision, but clearly with averted vision, as a faint arc, without details (15x mag). Switching to 30x made the view too dim. Intentionally, I did not use any map, memorized the star patterns, and compared later to SkySafari  - a perfect match. The western part remained invisible, due to the sky conditions. All this with a "children's toy scope" (-which it is not, it's with 15x mag and 3° TFoV a very capable and affordable RFT). So, all you users of small(ish) scopes - give the Veil a try!

Stephan

Edited September 19, 2020 by Nyctimene

[jetstream]

5 hours ago, Nyctimene said:

So, all you users of small(ish) scopes - give the Veil a try!

Excellent observing Stephan and great info.

I think this also points out that those using 100mm fracs or 150mm-200mm dobs (or whatever) are not hindered in any way to see the Veil. It all boils down to matching the eyepiece, using a good filter, observing from the darkest sky you can and then looking in the right spot.

All this observing talk has me going to dust off the 200mm f3.8 for some widefield nebula obs.

[Stu]

3 hours ago, jetstream said:

Excellent observing Stephan and great info.

I think this also points out that those using 100mm fracs or 150mm-200mm dobs (or whatever) are not hindered in any way to see the Veil. It all boils down to matching the eyepiece, using a good filter, observing from the darkest sky you can and then looking in the right spot.

All this observing talk has me going to dust off the 200mm f3.8 for some widefield nebula obs.

Absolutely right Gerry. I was very pleased with my views of the Veil in the 72mm, even with dark adaptation that wasn’t optimal. Previously I recall it being difficult, even not visible in my TV76 but that may well have been down to experience (as we’ve been discussing), or a less good OIII filter.

I have one of the little penguin scopes so will give that a go with a 24mm Panoptic and Lumicon OIII! 🤣🤣

[John]

Try the Pelican with the Penguin - you never know what might happen !

 

[Marvin Jenkins]

I have been smiling all the time following this thread. What an enthusiastic report of an amazing, infuriating, difficult target.

I am one of the newly initiated having my first view of the W Veil at the end of July. I had often wondered about this spectacular nebula having seen loads of amazing pics on this site.

I had not bothered to try before as most of the chat mentions it only appearing with Olll filters and such which I do not have yet, so I had it way down on my list. I have to say that I do not have much light pollution, at worst B4 and my nearest village 3k away turn off the lights at midnight.

I think light pollution may well be the biggest problem. I have a six inch newt and on a nice clear night I got my first look at the W Veil without any filter and after some adaptation, without averted vision. E Veil was also realised the same way. No fancy eyepieces either, Orion plossl’s.

Well done everyone involved, I know how much it means as I danced like a nutter round the garden when I realised what I had in the EP. For all of you still trying, I am sure that with equipment upgrades and/or dark site visits it will happen for you too.

Marvin

[Nyctimene]

You haven't to wait for the perfect skies. Was just out under very hazy skies, NELM 4,7 (47 Cyg close by),  SQM-L20.85. M 31 near zenith barely visible. With the 8" f/4 and the ES 24 /82, together with an. Astronomik UHC, the Veil could be made out with direct vision (33x mag), even the fainter western part. Not much detais as filaments in the "claw", but visible as the well known arc,

Stephan

[Zermelo]

This thread encouraged me to have a try myself for the first time on Monday.   6" Newtonian with an average low power Plossl, Bortle 4 sky.
With no filter, I couldn't see a thing. Adding an Astronomik UHC was amazing - the Eastern veil was very obvious. Couldn't see the Western side though.

[John]

1 hour ago, Zermelo said:

This thread encouraged me to have a try myself for the first time on Monday.   6" Newtonian with an average low power Plossl, Bortle 4 sky.
With no filter, I couldn't see a thing. Adding an Astronomik UHC was amazing - the Eastern veil was very obvious. Couldn't see the Western side though.

That's the way it was for me at the start. After a while I managed to tease out the western side and then later some of the elements in between such as Pickerings Wisp.

Well done for getting that all important first sighting. You will be back for more, I'm sure

[Captain Scarlet]

I finally brought my 12” to bear a few nights ago, Sunday I think, and My Goodness! The Eastern bit was easily evident without any filter at all, and with the Astronomik Oiii there was lots of wispy detail: I’m clearly going to have to spend time on it, weather permitting. And I now also want need a UHC.

M

[John]

6 minutes ago, Captain Magenta said:

I finally brought my 12” to bear a few nights ago, Sunday I think, and My Goodness! The Eastern bit was easily evident without any filter at all, and with the Astronomik Oiii there was lots of wispy detail: I’m clearly going to have to spend time on it, weather permitting. And I now also want need a UHC.

M

The O-III makes quite a bit more impact with the Veil than a UHC does.

 

[Barry-W-Fenner]

9 hours ago, John said:

The O-III makes quite a bit more impact with the Veil than a UHC does.

 

Morning John

Any recommendations as to what the best 2" OIII filter would be for use with my 30mm Aero ED?

I am thinking of purchasing one to view The veil, NAN, Owl Nebula and so on.

Its worth mentioning that I will be viewing from my bortle 6 sky location.

Thanks

Baz

[Ricochet]

I don't think you can scrimp with filters. I would look at the Astronomik and the Televue (made by Astronomik) OIII filters. I've also got a Baader OIII, with an even narrower bandpass that only covers one of the two OIII lines, and that shows the brighter (denser) parts of the veil well, but it doesn't show the looser, more subtle parts that blend into the background sky like the Astronomik does. The cheaper "OIII" filters tend to have too wide a bandpass and with them you are more likely to see nothing at all. 

[John]

6 minutes ago, Ricochet said:

I don't think you can scrimp with filters. I would look at the Astronomik and the Televue (made by Astronomik) OIII filters. I've also got a Baader OIII, with an even narrower bandpass that only covers one of the two OIII lines, and that shows the brighter (denser) parts of the veil well, but it doesn't show the looser, more subtle parts that blend into the background sky like the Astronomik does. The cheaper "OIII" filters tend to have too wide a bandpass and with them you are more likely to see nothing at all. 

Saves me typing what I was about to type !

My 2 inc O-III is a Lumicon from one of their "really good" periods but there can be some variations in that brand. I have the Astronomik O-III in 1.25 inch and that is very good as well.

I appreciate that it's quite a lot of £'s to spend on an item with a rather specific use though

 

[markse68]

Yes I’ve heard others singing the praises of the new TV oiii but it’s hard to swallow a single piece of glass costing more than any ep i own and some of them were painfull to pull the trigger on. But if you want the best i guess you have to pay. I suppose they must have a lot of rejects in production that drive the cost so high 🤷‍♂️

[Ricochet]

27 minutes ago, John said:

Saves me typing what I was about to type !

There's a first time for everything, usually it's the other way around. 🤣

24 minutes ago, markse68 said:

 I suppose they must have a lot of rejects in production that drive the cost so high 🤷‍♂️

Astronomik make the filters in Germany, ship them to the USA where they are checked by Televue, then they are shipped back to the UK to be sold to us. You've got two lots of shipping and import taxes, plus labour costs for the additional QC check which I think can easily make up the difference between the "standard" Astronomik and the Televue OIII filters. Is there enough variation in the quality of the filters to make that additional QC check worth the cost? I guess it is up to each buyer to decide. 

[markse68]

47 minutes ago, Ricochet said:

There's a first time for everything, usually it's the other way around. 🤣

Astronomik make the filters in Germany, ship them to the USA where they are checked by Televue, then they are shipped back to the UK to be sold to us. You've got two lots of shipping and import taxes, plus labour costs for the additional QC check which I think can easily make up the difference between the "standard" Astronomik and the Televue OIII filters. Is there enough variation in the quality of the filters to make that additional QC check worth the cost? I guess it is up to each buyer to decide. 

I think just the act of making one of these must justify a lot of the cost- a perfectly optically flat and parallel substrate (i’ve heard that’s harder to do than to make a curved lens) and then multiple layers of coating accurate in thickness on a nanometre scale, get the thickness wrong or a contaminant in the coating and it’s scrap and the bigger the diameter the harder it must be. It’s super hi tech nanometric engineering. Not just a bit of coloured glass. Still seems ridiculous though 😂

Edited September 25, 2020 by markse68

[jetstream]

If I was in the UK and the new Televue OIII was too expensive I would not hesitate to buy a new version of Astronomiks OIII- they are tighter than the older ones. I must say that my older Astronomik OIII is still vg.

For interest my older (excellent) Lumicons show more focus difference - internal diffraction (refraction?)- than my new Televue filters. The new TV's focus points are nearly identical and I would expect this from the new Astronomiks.

Edited September 25, 2020 by jetstream

[John]

I guess coating and polish quality have improved over recent years as well, hence lower scatter  / diffraction in the latest versions ?

 

[Mr Flibble]

On 24/09/2020 at 22:21, Captain Magenta said:

I finally brought my 12” to bear a few nights ago, Sunday I think, and My Goodness! The Eastern bit was easily evident without any filter at all, and with the Astronomik Oiii there was lots of wispy detail: I’m clearly going to have to spend time on it, weather permitting. And I now also want need a UHC.

M

I was observing that night as well and had some great views of the veil. I love this time of year with the return of the dark nights and the summer triangle so high overhead. The North America nebula was very prominent so it must have been good transparent skies that night.

[Colossal Plossl]

I could not see the veil in my 5 inch dob last night using a 30mm Vixen NPL.  Tried with and without the Astronomik UHC filter

[Hanah]

Guess this will be my first addition to the SGL. I'm a newbie and really enjoyed reading about the veil. Guess I will start-off my wishlist with this object. Although I'm not a regular observer here in the most light polluted region of the Neterlands (which scores high on a worldwide scale), I will be looking for it on my next trip to the mountains.

Cheers,

Han