Veil Nebula: Not Seeing It

[Captain Scarlet]

I have a 1.25” Astronomik Oiii filter, which I bought off the classifieds here a while ago. Until a couple of weeks ago, I’d actually never used it. It had been suggested that I put it into one eyecup of my Leica 10x50 binoculars to see if the Veil Nebula, which I’ve never seen, would “pop out”, as some things I’d read had suggested it should. Wikipedia’s page on it says “… some argue that it can be seen without any optical aid except an O-III filter held up to the eye”. I had high hopes. The full Veil Nebula is 2.7 degrees across apparently, and my binoculars’ field of view is 6.7 degrees.

I am at a very dark sky location, 21.8+ at best, and I first tried for it a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately although the sky was clear, a fullish Moon was up and I couldn’t notice anything.

I had another go last night. My SQM-L reading was 21.55 at the zenith, the sky was perfectly clear and the Milky Way was naked-eye-breathtaking. But of the Veil, not a sausage. Just a dimmer greenish rendition of the star-scape I could see through the other unobstructed eyepiece. Both eyes open, one eye only, fully dark-adapted, nothing revealed it. And I was looking in the right place.

Am I being unrealistic expecting to see it through a low-power 2-inch scope (as one side of a 50mm binocular is)? The night although seemingly clear was perhaps laden with moisture, might that have affected the view?

Cheers, Magnus

[Barry-W-Fenner]

Hi Magnus,

This is a good question, I look forward to some of the responses.

I was observing Saturday night. The Veil wasn't on my list of objects to view,  Before the conditions deteriorated I decided to have a look for it with my 14mm Morpheus and O-III filter giving x107  and I couldn't find it. Its worth mentioning that I am in a bortle 6 location so not ideal. Maybe I was using to much power?

 

I have never seen the Veil so would like to get an idea of what conditions I need to view it under 🙂

 

baz

 

[John]

With binoculars I've only once seen the eastern portion of the Veil with 11x70's on an exceptionally dark night a couple of years ago. I was not using a filter. The nebula appeared as a very faint curved strand.

I like to have at least a 1.5 degree true field when observing this target with a scope, preferably more. That is enough to get one segment of the nebula complex into the field of view.

It's a biggie !

This is to scale. The Eastern Veil is on the left - it's the brightest portion to observe:

 

[Nik271]

I live under Bortle 5/6 skies and for one year trying I couldn't see the Veil even with a UHC filter on a fast Newt with 2 degree FoV. I know exactly where it is because I have photographed it, but the light pollution is a killer for this object.

Then a few weeks ago I went for short holiday in Wales and the skies were Bortle 3. Not super dark but the Milky way is obvious.

I had  my Celestron Skymaster 20x80 binoculars and of course I tried for the Veil. I saw the Eastern Veil as a dim crescent but could not spot the Western Veil even though I was staring at 52 cygni, the star that sits right in the middle of it. Still I'm very happy to have seen the Eastern Veil.

So for me the lesson is: go to darker skies and bring big binos  No filters required.

 

Nikolay

Edited September 17, 2020 by Nik271
corrected typos

[Captain Scarlet]

Thanks, interesting. I clearly have the dark skies box ticked, I guess 50mm of aperture just isn't enough even with the filter, and perhaps the fact I've not seen it before means I have nothing to recognize. A bit like one's first M33: difficult to recognize at the very first attempt, but positively leaps out thereafter. All the scopes I own here in Ireland at the moment are 1500mm FL or longer, with a widest FoV of 1.6 degrees, but I am in temporary possession of a relative's SW Heritage 130p at the moment which with my 18.2 should give me nearly 1.75 degrees. I might give that a go this evening as it involves almost zero set-up.

M

[John]

Definitely worth a go with the Heritage 130.

The first time I ever saw the Veil was with a 100mm f/9 refractor, a 24mm 70 degree eyepiece and the Baader UHC-S filter. That filter is not the best by any means but it did the trick. Full blown UHC's are better and a decent O-III the best on this I've since discovered.

 

[Barry-W-Fenner]

Is the Veil not very forgiving to magnification? is trying to see it at x107 to much. are we talking very low power x50-x80?

 

Cheers

[John]

These extended deep sky objects are best observed at low magnifications. Not too low or the exit pupil gets too large and any LP issues are made worse.

I find 31mm - 21mm 2 inch eyepieces with very wide fields of view work well. My 40mm 2 inch is less effective because I have some LP issues to contend with.

In terms of magnifications, 21x - 75x depending on the scope I'm using.

 

 

 

[Ships and Stars]

1 hour ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Is the Veil not very forgiving to magnification? is trying to see it at x107 to much. are we talking very low power x50-x80?

 

Cheers

I find low mag down to max exit pupil works best, and definitely OIII filter for scopes, UHC for binoculars. Higher mag however can boost contrast for light polluted skies.

I actually prefer the wider view through my smaller dob, though the big one shows an incredible amount of detail under dark skies. 

I'll use the 31mm Baader or the 20mm 100 degree APM. I know the ES 25mm 100 degree gets poor reviews in general, but I wouldn't hesitate to take a punt if one turns up for the right price. The 21mm Ethos is of course awesome for this as well.

[Ships and Stars]

2 hours ago, Captain Magenta said:

Thanks, interesting. I clearly have the dark skies box ticked, I guess 50mm of aperture just isn't enough even with the filter, and perhaps the fact I've not seen it before means I have nothing to recognize. A bit like one's first M33: difficult to recognize at the very first attempt, but positively leaps out thereafter. All the scopes I own here in Ireland at the moment are 1500mm FL or longer, with a widest FoV of 1.6 degrees, but I am in temporary possession of a relative's SW Heritage 130p at the moment which with my 18.2 should give me nearly 1.75 degrees. I might give that a go this evening as it involves almost zero set-up.

M

I bet the 130p would give a nice wide view under your skies but I'd go UHC over OIII at that aperture. I cycled around SW Ireland about 15 years ago and ended up staying outside Allihies for about a week (I was a poor but free man at the time!) Wasn't a cloud in the sky for days on end, I got fairly well sunburnt. Slept outside my tent one night because the milky way was just glowing and cast shadows, will never forget it. A wonderful place to relax, Allihies.

PS I did a running review of three binoculars the other night, 12x70 Celestrons, 15x70 Apollos and 20x60 Pentax under 21.15-21.2 skies, good transparency but not super dark. East Veil was easily visible without any filters -  once I'd sussed the location. With UHC on the Apollos, it was buzzing. OIII was too much, isolated but very faint. Pickerings triangle was very faint, West Veil the same as it's transposed with a handful of stars that mask nebulosity. You'll crack it with the 130p under the right conditions.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Ships and Stars

[John]

My Lumicon O-III does an amazing job on the Veil when used with my Vixen 102mm ED refractor and the 31mm Nagler. 3.8 degrees - you can get the whole thing in, east, west and the wisps in the middle

 

[globular]

I've had some success with a DGM Optics NPB filter and 1.3 degrees (40mm in by 8" F/10) at my 20.4 mag back garden.
I only get part of it and it's faint but without the filter I get nothing.
I'm still new to this game but I can't get enough of the amazing views on offer.

[Barry-W-Fenner]

1 hour ago, John said:

My Lumicon O-III does an amazing job on the Veil when used with my Vixen 102mm ED refractor and the 31mm Nagler. 3.8 degrees - you can get the whole thing in, east, west and the wisps in the middle

 

I bet that was a site to behold John and a great reward for being patient teasing out this target.

I would give it a try with my 30mm aero ed however I haven't got a 2" OIII filter yet. 😢

[jetstream]

Years ago @John guided me through the process of seeing the Veil, using a 90mm refractor at the time and from 20.5 skies (or so). Magnification (or exit pupil if you prefer) must be in the right range IMHO. A good high tranmission tight OIII is also a huge benefit.

Our H130 easily shows the Veil, actually any scope will- if things are well matched.

[david_taurus83]

I seen it through my 200p at a bortle 4 site a few years ago. Was the best moment of the star party I was at. Only had a UHC filter at the time but it popped right out. I also had a 71mm frac on the go as well and could also see it through that but just about, very faintly.

[clarkpm4242]

4 hours ago, Captain Magenta said:

I guess 50mm of aperture just isn't enough

Hi.  I regularly observe the Eastern section through Canon 15x50 IS binoculars from here in the northern Yorkshire Dales.  SQM 21.2 - 21.5.  I have observed with standard 10x50s.

Seeing the Veil kicks off the astro season for me each year!!  :)

Good luck.  Paul.

[Victor Boesen]

I find this thread very interesting.... I have seen the entire veil, although the eastern veil is significantly easier to spot, through my Helios Apollo 15X70 binoculars with an OIII and UHC filter screwed in both eyecups. The eastern veil was barely visible without any of these filters but still noticable. It was also visible in my 10" dobsonian with a 24mm 82 degree eyepiece and an OIII filter but not nearly as enjoyable because of the high magnification. This was at a "dark" bortle class 4 location.

Under a "bright" bortle 4 sky I wasn't able to spot neither the eastern or western veil with my 10" dob but it was still visible in my binoculars with the OIII and UHC filter in place. The eastern veil was close to invisible without the filters in the binoculars.

I hope you find it!!

Victor

Edited September 17, 2020 by Victor Boesen

[Captain Scarlet]

Set up for another crack at it tonight!

... oh iOS 14 won’t let me upload images ... error -200

... hmmm even got error -200 trying to upload image via separate route from a computer ...

Edited September 17, 2020 by Captain Magenta

[John]

Transparency is not too good here tonight so it's not a good "veil night".

 

[clarkpm4242]

33 minutes ago, John said:

Transparency is not too good here tonight so it's not a good "veil night

Likewise here, a clear but not clear night

[markse68]

Yes- very disappointing here too

[Nyctimene]

Spotted the Veil with the Heritage 130 P Flextube several times during the last three years. At least the eastern part was almost always visible, even under sub-average 5.0 mag/NELM 20.0 skies, through an UHC filter, in better nights even without filter. Good luck for the hunt with your temporarily available 130 P!

Stephan

[Captain Scarlet]

FINALLY I BAGGED IT.

Heritage 130p and Delite 18.2 eyepiece, plus Astronomik Oiii filter. Without the filter, just an (admittedly lovely) starfield. With the filter, WOW there it was, the Eastern section, so clear! A quick shift over to the West, and there, almost as bright, was the Western part. Very pleased. I removed the filter and, now knowing exactly where and what to look for, I could just about make out the Eastern bit. So pleasing too to get it with what is often recommended as the very first scope an aspiring observer will buy.

Clear nights forecast and dark for the next few days, I shall bring more aperture, 12", to bear.

Very pleased, Magnus

[markse68]

Nice one Magnus! I just the other weekend saw it for the first time too so can relate 😉 It’s funny how once seen it gets so much easier to see again- even last night with terrible transparency (no sign of hercules or most of the big dipper!) I could just make out east and west when i foolishly tried. Sky quality makes all the difference i think but familiarity helps too!

Edited September 18, 2020 by markse68

[John]

Yay !!!!