My mount is triggering my vertigo. Advice please.

[Gasconman]

Just to put you in the picture, I'm fortunate in that I live beneath Bortle 4 skies, on latitude 44, with plenty of room to get a 360° view of the sky from our property and so I'd been considering taking up stargazing as a hobby for quite a while. However, I never did as I thought it might be a waste of money (you know, use the scope twice and then have it end up gathering dust in the corner of my man-cave). But then, recently, I received £400 I wasn’t expecting, so decided to take the plunge and, last month, I bought a Skywatcher Explorer 130M from FLO, together with a couple of BST Starguider eyepieces and a Baader red dot finder. I really like the scope and had a big emotional hit when I saw Jupiter and Saturn for the first time. So, now I'm starting to get hooked.

The problem I have is the EQ2 mount. (A) It wobbles when I focus or get too close to the eyepiece and (B) and far more important, I'm finding that using it out there in the pitch dark triggers my vertigo  - that's the inner ear problem that causes dizziness, not fear of heights 🙂 For example, after being out observing last night for an less than an hour, I had to give up as I felt quite nauseous. And this has happened on each of the three nights I've been out (although last night was the worst). It seems that looking up and searching for objects, trying to locate the clutch knobs and properly align the scope, trying to locate the slow-motion controls or engage the motor, all combine to trigger the dizziness. I got so frustrated because it seemed like all I was doing was fiddling with the scope and making myself feel ill when all I wanted to do was look into the eyepiece and wonder at the universe.

So, now I have a dilemma. Do I give up, take the hit and sell the gear (which would be a huge shame)? Or would I find the solution to my problem in an EQ3 PRO Go-To mount? And, if I went that extra mile and shelled out as much as I have already on the EQ3-2 GOTO, power pack, etc. would I find it to be more stable than the mount I have now? Or, on that latter point, maybe the wobble is caused by poor handling due to my inexperience?

Thanks in advance for any advice, especially from anyone that owns an EQ3-2 mount.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Gasconman

[Cosmic Geoff]

I can't advise you about the vertigo. But I can advise you about mounts.  I agree about the EQ-2 being too wobbly.   An EQ3-2 would be a lot more stable, and is available as a manual mount or a GoTo, and you can get non-GoTo RA drive or RA & Dec two-axis drive kits for it.

A slight caution about the EQ3-2 GoTo: GoTo can be great, but equatorial mounts can be a headache for novices, and  ditto getting to grips with GoTo systems, and if you combine the two together...

Alt-azimuth GoTo mounts are much less trying, but you would have to look at lesser known makes like Ioptron, as the entry level alt-az GoTo mounts that might take your scope will not be a lot more stable then the EQ-2.

Ideally you should try to borrow a GoTo outfit or a better manual mount and see how you get on with it, before spending more money on something that may not fix your problem.

[DaveL59]

Are you finding that the change in looking into the eyepiece then cranking your head to sue the RDF and looking down again for the axle locks and SloMo controls is the issue that triggers it?

I sometimes get a little dizzy with the RDF when having to angle my head to use it, especially toward azimuth, similar issue with inner ear, well sinus in my case when they play up which affects it. I find being able to sit while observing helps, a right-angle finder probably would too but I've not got one as yet, been meaning to modify a finder for that at some stage.

Agreed the EQ2 can be a bit wobbly when you touch anything. You might be able to improve the stability a little by hanging a weight under the tripod tho it'd get in the way of the accessory tray. Possibly too, keep the tripod legs not extended which helps, or perhaps fill the legs with sand tho I've not tried that. 

[Starwatcher2001]

Would sitting down to observe help? That's altogether more relaxing and easier on the system.

[Alan64]

For the time being, you can transform the EQ-2 into a rudimentary yet fully-working alt-azimuth.  This is my Meade 114mm f/8, and the EQ2-class mount that came with it...

You simply throw the RA-axis back until the butt of it rests upon the latitude-stop bolt, then clamp it to secure...

The EQ-2 will go almost all the way back, but far enough to effect the transformation, and at 85°, with my own in any event...

The counterweight must be used, still, and to balance that side of the mount opposite the telescope.  You then unclamp both axes, and motion the telescope left to right, and up and down, just as a dedicated alt-azimuth.  With the axes clamped, both slow-motion controls can be used as well; fully operational.  

If that helps, you can certainly continue to use it that way.

If you want the ability to throw the RA-axis back all the way to 90°, if your own does not allow that as it comes, a notch will need to be made into the body as shown, carefully, and to accommodate the width of the stop-bolt...

The notch must not be made too deeply, or it will go past 90°, to 91° or more.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Alan64

[Gasconman]

17 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

I can't advise you about the vertigo. But I can advise you about mounts.  I agree about the EQ-2 being too wobbly.   An EQ3-2 would be a lot more stable, and is available as a manual mount or a GoTo, and you can get non-GoTo RA drive or RA & Dec two-axis drive kits for it.

A slight caution about the EQ3-2 GoTo: GoTo can be great, but equatorial mounts can be a headache for novices, and  ditto getting to grips with GoTo systems, and if you combine the two together...

Alt-azimuth GoTo mounts are much less trying, but you would have to look at lesser known makes like Ioptron, as the entry level alt-az GoTo mounts that might take your scope will not be a lot more stable then the EQ-2.

Ideally you should try to borrow a GoTo outfit or a better manual mount and see how you get on with it, before spending more money on something that may not fix your problem.

Thanks for your opinion re EQ2 v EQ3-2, Geoff, much appreciated.

Just for general info, we vertigo sufferers always have more problems in the dark because we learn to compensate for the mess-up in our inner ears by using sight as a balancing mechanism.

Regarding the German Equatorial Mount in general terms, I fully understood the potential handling problems before I placed my order. However, I’m a bit of a techie and I love a challenge and the thought of having a mount that compensated for the Earth’s rotation seemed cool. It still does, and indeed setting it up and swinging it around to look at terrestrial targets in the daytime doesn’t cause me any great problems. In the dark however, that’s a whole different issue. So an equatorial GoTo that eliminates searching, sighting, and aligning in the dark may be the answer. But, I take your point and I've just found a club here in France just 15 kms from my home. I'm going to email them as I see that they have a meeting on the 26th of this month.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Gasconman

[Gasconman]

16 hours ago, DaveL59 said:

Are you finding that the change in looking into the eyepiece then cranking your head to sue the RDF and looking down again for the axle locks and SloMo controls is the issue that triggers it?

I sometimes get a little dizzy with the RDF when having to angle my head to use it, especially toward azimuth, similar issue with inner ear, well sinus in my case when they play up which affects it. I find being able to sit while observing helps, a right-angle finder probably would too but I've not got one as yet, been meaning to modify a finder for that at some stage.

Agreed the EQ2 can be a bit wobbly when you touch anything. You might be able to improve the stability a little by hanging a weight under the tripod tho it'd get in the way of the accessory tray. Possibly too, keep the tripod legs not extended which helps, or perhaps fill the legs with sand tho I've not tried that. 

Thanks. To answer your first question, it's the searching, sighting, and aligning in the dark that's the main issue. As to the tripod, I have the lower legs extended by just 30 cms.  I'm a retired photographer and now a part-time photography tutor, so  I have a good understanding of tripods and, I have to say, my tripod seems reasonably firm - a lot firmer that the head! However, I will try a concrete block on the accessory tray to see if that makes any improvement.

[Gasconman]

13 hours ago, Starwatcher2001 said:

Would sitting down to observe help? That's altogether more relaxing and easier on the system.

I don't think so TBH as it's the searching, sighting, and aligning in the dark that's the problem. Viewing through the eyepiece whilst standing is fine.

[Gasconman]

13 hours ago, Alan64 said:

For the time being, you can transform the EQ-2 into a rudimentary yet fully-working alt-azimuth.  This is my Meade 114mm f/8, and the EQ2-class mount that came with it...

 

Thanks for that, Alan. However, I'd still have to search, align and sight it and it seems that doing that in the dark is what's causing my problem.

[DaveL59]

6 minutes ago, Gasconman said:

Thanks. To answer your first question, it's the searching, sighting, and aligning in the dark that's the main issue. As to the tripod, I have the lower legs extended by just 30 cms.  I'm a retired photographer and now a part-time photography tutor, so  I have a good understanding of tripods and, I have to say, my tripod seems reasonably firm - a lot firmer that the head! However, I will try a concrete block on the accessory tray to see if that makes any improvement.

careful how much you load the tray, the spreader under it is plastic so I'm not sure of the load it can carry 😉 

I do have an EQ5 goto in the collection of gear I have and I find it works quite well, tho I often just use it for the RA tracking than bother to go through the alignment etc. Depends what I want to do that evening and available time etc. For me using the finder is more of the problem hence thinking a RA (RACI) finder may help.

edit - thinking about more recent tech - the Celestron Starsense kit looks interesting, there's been a couple recent threads on it. That uses a smartphone on a holder to guide you to where to point the scope. So far they seem to be on Alt-AZ mounts and not available as a separate accessory but perhaps worth thinking about. Avoid the LT models tho as the tripod/mount is very wobbly according to reviews.

Edited September 15, 2020 by DaveL59

[vlaiv]

Newtonian on EQ mount it probably the worst scope for your condition.

This is because eyepiece gets into very awkward positions and you need to bend your neck quite a bit. I often loose sense of where horizon is in these situations - looking at the eyepiece without any reference point and being all bent and twisted to position myself better - luckily no vertigo.

Sitting down is one of the solutions, other is using telescope that has eyepiece at the back of the tube - not to the side. AZ/EQ - depend on what you prefer and your budget but in this case - difference is minimal.

It's worth getting RACI as well - or at least angled finder.

Here you go - comfy position to be in when observing:

Another option is dobsonian telescope that is small enough so you can observe seated and again raci or angled finder.

Something like 6" F/8 or 8" F/6 is going to be very good scope to start with. But do remember to include angled finder as regular ones again cause neck bending and awkward positions.

[Gasconman]

2 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

careful how much you load the tray, the spreader under it is plastic so I'm not sure of the load it can carry 😉

Good point! Thanks!
Hmmm, how does one test a tripod, ALMOST to destruction? 😄

[Gasconman]

4 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Newtonian on EQ mount it probably the worst scope for your condition.

This is because eyepiece gets into very awkward positions and you need to bend your neck quite a bit. I often loose sense of where horizon is in these situations - looking at the eyepiece without any reference point and being all bent and twisted to position myself better - luckily no vertigo.

 

I found that rotating the scope within the tube rings to reorient the eyepiece was quite easy to do, so viewing is not an issue really; it's everything before that that's the problem (plus taking my eye from the eyepiece to try and locate the slo-mo controls.)

[Franklin]

Get a SCT or a Frac which will both use a 90* diagonal, a right-angled finder and an alt-az mount. That way you won't be having to look up very much. Get a seat positioned just right so there will be no chance of falling over if you have a dizzy spell.