I think i'm ready for another scope, but do i upgrade or compliment

[Fozzie]

1 hour ago, John said:

Seems crazy to me to let the colour of a scope get in the way of an absolutely superb option but there you go

My ED120 is a wonderful refractor and compares well against my Tak and my TMB/LZOS 130 triplet which of course cost considerably more.

Hope you find something the right colour soon

 

Oh I know... I fail to explain my mind sometimes, and absolutely the 120ed is probably right on the money.. yet I look at it and it just doesn't take me to that place that my f11 does... not sure how to say it... maybe I just don't find it lickable enough!

[F15Rules]

Hi Andy,

I hope you and yours are well?😀

I freely admit I'm biased but I'd go option 2 but not for Altair, but for a used Vixen ED103s.

I've owned two of these and at F7.7 they are, I feel, an ideal compromise between F7 and F9, so can do pretty wide field and great for planetary, close doubles, lunar etc. These scopes are a later "replacement/descendant" of the legendary Vixen FL102s, so I believe Vixen knew they had to be top notch to try and fill the FL102's boots?

I only sold the first one to help fund my Tak FS128, and the second as someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse and I needed the cash as I faced early retirement/redundancy.

For a few months I owned both the FS128 and the ED103s and so was able to do several comparisons. Honestly, on most nights the difference wasn't that much. I think that for UK/Northern European conditions, ie not brilliant most of the time, a quality 4" is a great "only" scope. The FS128 will definitely show more planetary detail than the Vixen on perhaps 5 or 10 nights in a year, but most of the time the gap is very small. I got my first split of Sirius and the Pup with the ED103s, something I've never managed with another 4" frac.

I have also owned the scope you have, well, the Lyra Optic version Kunming 102/F11 achromat. It was a fine scope and I liked it. But the Vixen is in a different class optically, and has almost zero CA at all visually. It's also more impressive to look at (it has a lightweight oversized 114mm tube), is shorter,  and has a better lens cell to suit the high quality lens. I personally also prefer a good rack and pinion focuser to a crayford which can often slip under load. 

I have also owned several larger F8 achromats. They can be fun and do go deeper of course, but they do have significant CA and are very large and heavy. I found myself opting for a lighter 4" for shorter, often unplanned sessions as they were less hassle to set up and put away. They do say the best scope is the one you use most, and I have no doubt that that is true, for me at least. I am very fortunate to now own an FS128..but for many years I couldn't, and I'd have been very happy with either of my Vixens as my only scope: their ED optics really are first class.

There is a very nice sounding ED103s on UKABS at the moment I believe, at £700  - that's well under half the new price and at that price most of the depreciation has gone: I'm not sure that the same can be said for Altair scopes?

The SW ED120 should be considered, as so many people speak so highly of them. I owned two, an Equinox and DS Pro and just couldn't take to them. The colour might have been part of it, but not the major factor: the Equinox was a lovely looking scope in gloss black with silver coloured accents, and I had no issues with its' looks. I just didn't find the views engaging enough.."Go Figure", as our US friends would say!

Good luck with your decision.

PS, if you do find an ED114s at a good price, snap it up, it will be just as good quality as the ED103s - buy I've only ever seen one used one for under £1k..

Below is a shot of my last ED103swt on a CG4 in a Tak FS102 clamshell (the ED103 tube is the same diameter as the FS102, ie 114mm)

Dave

[Alan White]

ED103s, great scopes, but I am biased on that one.
Look at my signature.
The one on AB&S (not my one) is a steal.

[Fozzie]

Thanks Dave, yes family is keeping well under the circumstances, the same for you and yours I hope..  thanks for your thoughts, interesting what you say about 120ed and it just not being right, I recall Jules having similar thoughts and experiences not long back, both of you being big frac people it's a point I have in my mind..

I've seen the vixen on ABS, if it had been later in the year I might have gone for it.. if I buy it'll be on an intrest free credit card I've just taken out, so I can save the savings, that and with the distance and covid, I'm less inclined to travel at the moment.  Otherwise yes excellent choice, and a nice vixen frac on my GP

I suppose another one of the things in my mind is my GP, after I thought the motor had failed, I'm not wanting to over face it with a bigger frac such as a 120ed.. another reason why I'm not pushing towards what is probably the the logical choice..  keeping around 5kg on a shorter tube is the way to go, hence option 1 or 3.. complimenting the 100mm and gp combination..

[dobbie]

3 hours ago, Fozzie said:

Hi Dobbie, all well thank you, yourself?  I'd forgotten you had the F7 ED, sounds like a plan for a meet up.. whats your thoughts on the comparison..  I'll be honest i had a 72mm ed altair scope a while back and it worried me at the time, how nice it was..  that was fpl 51 (or equivelent) i think... so i suspect that the fpl53 is a great scope..

hi yes i am fine thank you . the altair is a great scope but  i dont think there was a big difference between the f/11 apart from the focal length the view was very similar,  the f/7 is easier to handle apart from that i dont think you would be gaining much selling the f/11 to get the f/7  so maybe get another frac with a bigger aperture , but your more than welcome to meet up and try mine regards john.  

[dobbie]

3 hours ago, Fozzie said:

Hi Dobbie, all well thank you, yourself?  I'd forgotten you had the F7 ED, sounds like a plan for a meet up.. whats your thoughts on the comparison..  I'll be honest i had a 72mm ed altair scope a while back and it worried me at the time, how nice it was..  that was fpl 51 (or equivelent) i think... so i suspect that the fpl53 is a great scope..

hi yes i am fine thank you . the altair is a great scope but  i dont think there was a big difference between the f/11 apart from the focal length the view was very similar,  the f/7 is easier to handle apart from that i dont think you would be gaining much selling the f/11 to get the f/7  so maybe get another frac with a bigger aperture , but your more than welcome to meet up and try mine regards john.  

[F15Rules]

1 hour ago, Fozzie said:

.."keeping around 5kg on a shorter tube is the way to go, hence option 1 or 3.. complimenting the 100mm and gp combination..

Andy, 

Playing Devils' advocate, I am one of not very many I have seen who weren't wowed by the ED120. Many, many more owners rave about theirs, including some really well respected SGL members. If it's at all possible for you to look through one, I'd thoroughly recommend that you do so before your final decision - then that decision will be informed by your own experience.

Another idea slightly from left field..how about a 150mm Maksutov as your "larger aperture scope?" Very short, and not too heavy, probably 5-6kg, so ideal on a GP. The superb Intes Alter M603 or Intes Micro MK66 or MK67 (all 6" F10) all come up now and again for between £400-£600, and are all excellent - they are apochromatic, quite quick to cool down, full aperture (not stopped down like the SW150 Mak is) and, being Russian, pretty much bomb proof.

They will deliver views similar to a 5" Apo frac, take very high magnification on a good night, but won't do wide field as well due to the longish focal length..but you could then sell your Altair F11 and get a 4" or even 5" F5 Refractor for that ( and CA is not a big issue for wide field apart from very bright stars line Vega - you'd be using low to medium powers anyway in such a scope).

Decisions, decisions..🤔

Dave

[Fozzie]

1 hour ago, dobbie said:

hi yes i am fine thank you . the altair is a great scope but  i dont think there was a big difference between the f/11 apart from the focal length the view was very similar,  the f/7 is easier to handle apart from that i dont think you would be gaining much selling the f/11 to get the f/7  so maybe get another frac with a bigger aperture , but your more than welcome to meet up and try mine regards john.  

Oh dobbie I half hoped you'd say it knocked to socks off the f11!! I see a 120 f5 has popped up in the classified.. could be a good partner for the f11 for wide field and solar.. might just scratch the itch for a little while..

[mikeDnight]

The Star Travel 120 F5 never quite did it for me. The ST 150 F5 on the other hand was really quite spectacular as a rich field refractor. If I were to pull the trigger on an RFT though, it would be the StarWave 152 F5.9. That is one glorious comet seeker that would complement your 4" F11 beautifully! I'd have no hesitation about mounting one on a GP providing the tripod is sturdy enough, or is mounted on a solid pier.

Another complementary scope would be a TV Genesis, or in fact any of the Televue 101 series. 

[John]

I have a Vixen ED102 and a lovely scope it is too. But I use the ED120 much, much more

 

[Timebandit]

 

 

There are seemingly persons who will criticize the SW 120ED. But skywatcher opened up the market for a mass produced high quality refractor at very very sensible money when it produced the likes of 80ED , 100ED and the 120ED

I will still remember the first time I used my SW 120ED Equinox. It was on the moon. It is still etched on my mind how as I adjusted focuser, a super sharp etched image of the luna surface appeared. It really was a Woow moment. I have owned this scope for many years and still get that super clarity image on luna, planetary and double stars. A great , sensible price high quality refractor IMO.

 

 

 

[johninderby]

There is a bit of variability in the ED120 optics. Most are very good but there are a few lemons out there. I had an Equinox 120 but soon sold it on as it always disapointed. 

So it you get one check it out carefully and send it back if it’s not right.

[John]

20 minutes ago, johninderby said:

There is a bit of variability in the ED120 optics. Most are very good but there are a few lemons out there. I had an Equinox 120 but soon sold it on as it always disapointed. 

So it you get one check it out carefully and send it back if it’s not right.

I have read one negative report on these optics since they were released - two now counting yours. The first was also an Equinox 120 from 2008 as it happens:

https://astromart.com/reviews-and-articles/reviews/telescopes/refractors/show/eon-120-reveiw

The tests of the objectives on Herr Rohr's site have been excellent.

As we know there are lemons in all brands including Tak, CFF and the top end ones. I don't think that an ED120 has any more chance of being a sub-standard unit than any other brand.

But I totally accept that the ED120 might just not be the type of scope that the OP is looking for. Thats a much better reason not to go for one IMHO 

 

 

[Fozzie]

39 minutes ago, John said:

 I totally accept that the ED120 might just not be the type of scope that the OP is looking for. Thats a much better reason not to go for one IMHO 

Haha Not going to let that one go are you, which is fair enough, i admit it's a shallow reason, not liking the look of something despite the obvious optical performance and availability to the masses that the scope brings.. 

In fairness the op was about either rich field or a better 100mm frac, but as we love to spend everyone else's money these types of questions often evolve into suggestions a bit beyond people's means and wants.. but those suggestions are made from a wealth of experiance by those who have already asked and answered the questions.. i respect that.. i just dont think a 120ed is where im think currently..

that's not to say if a 120 equinox was available second hand, sliding dew, rotating focuser etc and I had that budget then I'd be interested..

I guess what I'm after is a complementary rich field scope, that goes a bit deeper than a 100mm, and maybe upgrade the 100mm in the future..

 

[John]

5 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

Haha Not going to let that one go are you, which is fair enough, i admit it's a shallow reason, not liking the look of something despite the obvious optical performance..

 

I was being serious Fozzie - if it's not what you want then thats a great reason for not going for it.

I feel similarly about some scope designs (SCT's for example). They are fine scopes but just don't do it for me

For rich field and refracting design I think the 152mm F/5.9's are really good choices. 32mm of aperture over the 120mm is not to be sniffed at (or licked ).

 

[Ricochet]

6" Rich field frac with a white tube

Heavy though, if the listed weight is correct.

[mikeDnight]

After using many and owning three over the years, I'm not convinced there's much variability in the SW 120ED refractors. They've all been great all rounders that have played very nicely alongside triplet apo's, including the superlative TSA120. They are certainly not a poor man's apo, as they deliver top class views across the range, both at low power wide field and high power lunar & planetary. For someone wanting to simplify their observing by having just one great scope that does it all, the 120ED has to be high on the list of potential players.

 

Keeping things a little more lightweight, but not by much, a short focal length 4" ED can be a great master of all trades too. Last night my 100mm F8 became a breathtaking comet seeker on its simple, lightweight Altaz. On other nights its a powerful double star and planetary scope.

[ndabunka]

On 11/07/2020 at 05:00, johninderby said:

There is a bit of variability in the ED120 optics. Most are very good but there are a few lemons out there. I had an Equinox 120 but soon sold it on as it always disapointed. 

So it you get one check it out carefully and send it back if it’s not right.

But that's the rub, isn't it?  Those of us just starting out are buying these as our FIRST scope so don't really know how to determine if we have gotten "a good one" or not. 

Here researching what and how to do things with a brand new SW 100ED that is scheduled to arrive sometime around the 1st week of September

Edited August 23, 2020 by ndabunka
clarity of thought

[John]

7 minutes ago, ndabunka said:

But that's the rub, isn't it?  Those of us just starting out are buying these as our FIRST scope so don't really know how to determine if we have gotten "a good one" or not. 

Here researching what and how to do things with a brand new SW 100ED that is scheduled to arrive from B&H sometime around the 1st week of September

Welcome to the forum

At least you can post on here on how you find the scope and if there is anything that you wish query you will be able to get some feedback on it. Also lots of suggestions on how to test the optics.