Jump to content

sgl_imaging_challenge_2021_annual.thumb.jpg.3fc34f695a81b16210333189a3162ac7.jpg

Help for a lost soul with very little astronomy experience.


Recommended Posts

Pointed in this direction with this post.

Never heard of Eeva until today. 

I'm a complete novice in astronomy. 

So feel free to treat me like a child, my knowledge in the area is zero..

I'm looking for an astronomy camera in the £500 range preferably lower ;) as it's clear I'm going to need more quipment to get this up and running. 

I want to be able to track and view from the comfort of my dining room. 

I saw FLO is the lounges sponsor and noticed this on their site.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-accessories/zwo-asiair-pro-wireless-astrophotography-controller.html

I do like the look of their ZWO line of cameras too some look nice and narrow for fastar.

So many options and so little knowledge on my part.

My new purchase at the moment is....

Celestron starsense autoalign. (Attached but not plugged in as yet. )

Celestron Nexstar Evolution 925 computerised goto mount with wifi. 

I have a good desktop PC and a Tab S4

Both at this moment erected in my sitting room to make sure of no obvious problems I have controlled the scope no problem with my Tab S4.

I went with the Evolution as it seemed to have most of what I required built in.

So please help , what should I be looking for? 

I want a Jack of all trades Solar Lunar Planets deep space etc.

I know I'm going to need filters for solar pictures so advice there too.

What extra equipment do I need as I would prefer to view on a screen and also in comfort indoors?

Would the above ASIairpro be needed or does my new scope handle what I want.

I know I'm starting at a trot but would much prefer remotely viewing and controlling my scope than freezing my old bones the middle of the night. 

Any and all advice gratefully recieved .

I know I'm asking a lot but I'm starting with a knowledge base of zero.

Yes I have done a lot of reading, but I have ended up with a migraine more times than I can count. 

None of it has managed to sink in or I have then read something that contradicts what I just read. 

Your help knowledge and experience is appreciated. 

At the moment the Evolution is erected in my sitting room just  to check all was well motor wise etc.

I successfully ran the scope with Skyportal using my Galaxy S4 using it's GPS Etc.

So please treat me like the fool  I am and tell me what extras I will need for astrophotography with the scope in my garden and my old bones in comfort in my dining room. Hopefully viewing on a screen beside me.

If it helps with the advice on what I'll need I have also been looking at Fastar systems, which as you know will reduce exposures down from minutes to seconds. And was totally shocked at the price a grand?

I love my gadgets but I want to make best use of them. 

I have a huge Samsung 8k TV always on but only ever watched the space station in 8k 😂

Yup that was a spur of the moment purchase, just like the telescope.

But I did get very good deals on them.😎

Barry

Link to post
Share on other sites

HyperStar is probably what you need:

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/starizona-hyperstar-lens-v4-925-celestron-sct-edge-hd-for-sony-e-mount.html

 The HyperStar 9.25 lens converts a standard Celestron 9.25" SCT from f/10 to f/2.2, making the system 25 times faster. That means 25-times shorter exposures.

But wait for it......................................Will cost £1,099.00 😮

edit: (Noah not Neil)

Noah4x4 who post on here is your man for all things Evo 9.25/HyperStar and more.

Edited by Mick H
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Barry,

Welcome to the wonderful world of EAA! You have chosen a really nice scope. Have you managed to use your scope outside to view any objects yet? That might be a good idea while the weather is still warm, so you can familiarise with the scope and understand what it’s capable of and where any problems lie. As you say, you are going at this pretty quickly, so I personally think it would be a good idea to try and get some results as cheaply as possible before splashing out any more. For example, do you have a DSLR camera? If so you could start with some imaging of the moon and then move on to some brighter star clusters so you can understand the challenges of locating, focussing, tracking, stacking, processing, etc. 

When you’ve got the hang of it and decided it’s definitely for you, then a dedicated camera and a reducer is required. Ideally a focal reduction to F5 or less is what you need for fainter deep sky objects. The more focal reduction you use, the more ‘coma’ like effects you get at the edges, hence a camera with a very small chip is desirable to minimise these effects. 

I use a Lodestar mono CCD  (mono cameras are more sensitive than colour) which I have been  very happy with, but people are increasingly using colour CMOS cameras with excellent results. I am not that up to date with latest cameras so will leave it to someone else to recommend something!

I use an old Meade 0.33 reducer (no longer made) - some people manage to use them at 0.33 without coma, but the best I have managed is 0.4 which is still reasonably fast. You could also try a 0.5 or 0.63 reducer and set the spacing to get as low as possible before coma appears.

HTH

Rob

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Mick H said:

HyperStar is probably what you need:

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/starizona-hyperstar-lens-v4-925-celestron-sct-edge-hd-for-sony-e-mount.html

 The HyperStar 9.25 lens converts a standard Celestron 9.25" SCT from f/10 to f/2.2, making the system 25 times faster. That means 25-times shorter exposures.

But wait for it......................................Will cost £1,099.00 😮

Neil4x4 who post on here is your man for all things Evo 9.25/HyperStar and more.

Yeah I've looked at it Mick 🤑

I have to say it surprised me,  the cost  I mean a grand for what surely is just an adaptor,!

I know there's more involved than that but still. 

Basically I want to make my viewing as easy and fast as possible. 

I never really enjoyed squinting through the eyepiece of my old 5 inch newtonian. 

That to me means wireless transmission of image and video to me sitting comfortably in the warm.

Hopefully I can get all this information from you wonderful people and I can settle down to a few happy years of gazing.

So all advice gratefully recieved. 

I have to replace my laptop too, it decided to go downstairs without me.

Would there be a one that's preferred for what I'm trying to do?

I built my own PC with 64 GB ram so that's sorted.

Yes I know I'm being a pain hopefully  only in the short term.

Barry 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Robert. 

My DSLR went to the grandsons last  year as it wasn't getting used at all here.

I'm on my own now and decided now is the time to  go for it.

Get everything I can as soon as I can to get up and gazing. 

I was going to say  I'm  not  lazy and that's not why I want to go automated. 

But! I do have back problems.  (Plus I'm seriously lazy!😂)

I also wear two pairs of glasses one for reading one for every day use. (Another excuse for going wireless viewing.)

Yes I definitely want to go  down the dedicated colour CCD or CMOS route .

With Fastar in mind after I get the scope up and running.

So I will need to double check the cameras that work with it. 

Or some nice person points me the right way.

I will keep an eye open for second hand Hyperstars, haven't seen one as yet.

I'm 99% sure I want colour I'm pretty sure I can handle the processing of the mono images.

But I would also like to view the transmitted images and video in real time, then do any post processing later.

 

Barry 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if you can afford it, you can’t do much better than hyperstar - F2 is super quick which is what you want with the less sensitive colour cameras. I would definitely go this way if had the time and money. Good luck and keep us updated. Perhaps start your own thread letting us know how you are doing? 🙂 

As Mick H said, @noah4x4 has a wireless Fastar setup with the same scope, so will be able to advise. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The chance of finding a used Hyperstar is negligible.  If you ever did, its supplied T-Ring will be specific to its previous owners camera and each aperture of OTA needs a different model (hence, you can't use an 8" Hyperstar with a 9.25" OTA). Users love them and (for example) mine won't become available until my passing. Hyperstar works with a relevant (same size) fastar SCT on GEM or Alt-Az.

The joy of Hyperstar is that at f/2 you don't need polar alignment or GEM (or wedge).  You don't need autoguiding. Capturing great images is easy because you can stack (under)  5 second subs as the system is 25x 'faster' than at f/10.  Challenges like Field Rotation are of no consequence. Even GoTo precision isn't critical as the FOV is so large its hard to miss your target. 

However, a benefit is also a disadvantage. Removal of your secondary mirror increases FOV x 5 (excellent!), but there is a corresponding reduction in magnification. This means a panoramic view like Horsehead + Flame etc is wholly within FOV, but some DSO objects remain small. To some extent, using Zoom plus Region of Interest in Sharpcap does assist with the mitigation of this. Works best with small pixels and high resolution CMOS to permit optimum zoom without pixelation.

Instead, at (say) x0.63 with focal reducer then objects are much larger. But images take much longer to form. Here, you need (say) 30 second stacked subs, which is more challenging for your mount. I dabble at x 0.63, but soon gravitate back to Hyperstar.  I suspect the new NightOwl reducer at f/4 is the best compromise between Hyperstar and f/6.3, but that device is also hard to source. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, RobertI said:

so I personally think it would be a good idea to try and get some results as cheaply as possible before splashing out any more. For example, do you have a DSLR camera? If so you could start with some imaging of the moon and then move on to some brighter star clusters so you can understand the challenges of locating, focussing, tracking, stacking, processing, etc. 

Totally agree !!!!!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Barry, It took me two years of reading, trying out two cameras on two different scopes, giving up, then starting again, then getting totally confused about cameras. All of this on the back of 20 years of visual observing with large dobsonian scopes and a whole variety of other scopes.

Firstly - slow down!!!!!!! Secondly take time to read through the posts in EEVA Reports to get a feel what folk are doing and what equipment is being used.

Excellent EEVA is being done with 8" scopes. I used a C9.25 for awhile but replaced this with a C11 but I would happily go back to the C9.25. They really are excellent scopes for visual and EEVA. 

Camera - several regular contributors to this site are using Starlight Express Guide cameras - either the Lodestar x2 or the Ultrastar. I have used both and personally prefer the Ultrastar as it has a larger chip and hence a wider field of view. These cameras have a dedicated piece of EEVA software called Starlight Live which is simple to use but no longer being developed. However Martin who is a regular on this site has written software for these cameras called Jocular which does an excellent job and is currently being upgraded for colour work.

Colour is not for me. I prefer to see things as they appear in a scope or as they might appear if I had a really big scope. Colour cameras are less sensitive than mono.

One camera will probably not satisfactorily do all you want. Others need to advise. The Lodestar/Ultrastar are for deep sky only.

I thought long and hard about a Hyperstar but decided against it because its fast f ratio, wide fov and effectively low magnification is not ideal for the faint, small galaxies I am interested in.

I use my C11 (and the C9.25 ) with the dedicated f6.3 reducer. I find this fast enough for decent results in 1-2 minutes for brighter objects or up to 5 minutes for fainter targets. I have used a 0.5 reducer on the camera with mixed success - tendency for coma and vignetting with the ultrastar due to its wider fov than the lodestar x2.

Mike

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

People once again thank you for taking the time to respond. 

Your dedication to your hobby does you proud. 

I should  make it absolutely plain that this is just a way for me to fill my time when I'm bored on an evening and can't sleep. (Which sadly happens a lot after I turned 60.)

I can't count the times I've been sat in my garden with a cigar and whiskey,  looked up and wished I had a telescope to get a closer view. 

It being reasonably portable I'd be able to stick it in the car for use at the caravan in Teesdale.

Where my grandsons will be able to use it too.

Where viewing on a screen will stop any fighting over the eyepiece. 

I also love looking at your wonderful pictures, both here and ones I've viewed on the internet. 

And yes I know I will be lucky to get close to the quality of the pictures on here. 

When I decided to jump after reading the reviews for the Evolution on Sky at Night.

(Probably should have called here first. )

As it had a lot built in,  naively, I expected to wack an astronomical camera in and view on a tablet or laptop. But the choices are so numerous and the chance of making a mistake huge. 

That's where I'm going to start with a camera and with remote viewing on a tablet even if its standing next to the scope. 

I seriously have no interest in squinting through an eyepiece, my eyesight is terrible. 

But I  would like the camera to be able to be used with Fastar in the future. 

I will make a start on Noahs posts hopefully something's will sink in.

So as it stands I need a camera and the means to send the pictures to a tablet. 

I was mightily impressed with controlling the scope with the tablet and was hoping I could have the image  from the scope on the tablet or laptop as well. 

Maybe I will get seriously hooked who knows.

Thanks for your advice. 

Barry 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is much debate and a million ways to do things in astronomy - everything is a trade off. And it can be very difficult when you don't know your own preferences yet.

If trying to get your head round the details gives you a headache I'm not going to confuse you with subtlety and/or balance! 

Here's my recommendations based on how I understand you. For detail, reasoning and explanation you can find it in my past postings if you search the forums.

First -- congrats on the scope -- the Evo 9.25 is a really great one and will be amazing with a hyperstar (if that's what you're tempted by) pretty much top of the line, basically. For an impulse purchase, it's a good one.

However, one thing not to get frustrated with is that, it's big and heavy and can be fiddly to set up. Don't be discouraged - with practise it will become easier. Also, the more you can keep the setup intact, the easier and quicker it will be to get going.

One quick thing first though... I'd be careful about using it for solar. You run a serious risk of damaging the optics of your telescope and yourself! A 9.25 SCT is not really designed as a solar scope. Be sure you know exactly what you're doing before you point it anywhere near the sun. I have an 8" SCT and I wouldn't use it for solar. For me the risks are high for not very exciting results in white light, especially now the sun is quiet. Instead, I bought a dedicated solar H-Alpha scope. It's safer and you see far more. There are lots of options but combining a cheap refractor and a Quark eyepiece is a good one. But that's a different subject! 

If it makes you feel any better about spending the money on the Hyperstar - it's not an adapter.

The Hyperstar actually changes the telescope design with specially designed additional glass. It's like a tiny glass telescope you insert into the bigger telescope to magnify the image from the mirror: there's a lot of fancy optics in it.

Possibly a slightly controversial opinion but I wouldn't try EAA with a DSLR on a scope. I worked as a professional photographer for a while - so I know my way around a camera - and I found using a DSLR on a scope a massive pain that yielded bad results. I'd go straight to buying an astronomy camera you can use with your tablet. You want to see stuff instantly and relatively easily on your tablet. There's no easy way of doing that with a DSLR, and I found the technical frustrations in turned me off totally.

So what should you buy... simply without giving you a headache! on details?

For my money, by far the best bang for buck cameras are the:

  • ASI290MM if you are happy with black and white
  • ASI385 if you prefer colour

Black and white lets you see more details and fainter things.

Colour... is in colour!

Personally, I thought I'd prefer colour, but I actually ended up preferring B+W because there is more detail.

Both cameras will do everything you want very well: lunar, planetary and DSO.

If you want the simplest thing that works on your tablet, get the ASIAir Pro:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-accessories/zwo-asiair-pro-wireless-astrophotography-controller.html

I recommend the ZWO ASI kit because I've used them, they're well made, the company is helpful and they're really the only one stop simple solution in your price range that lets you put a camera on the telescope and look on you tablet in an app.

Your biggest choice is to splurge on the Hyperstar straight away or get a focal reducer.

Your telescope is not currently optimised for a camera, it's optimised for your eyes. To make it work better with a camera you need a focal reducer: either the Hyperstar design or one you can put in the eyepiece. 

Otherwise images will take too long to capture. 

You can get a decent one relatively cheaply to start you off:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reducersflatteners/celestron-f63-focal-reducer.html

This will get you going, but it will be slow. The Night Owl 0.4 reducer is much better but also much more expensive (I've also not used it/seen it used so I'm just going on specs and talk). However, when you get the hyperstar you will be amazed at the difference. It's not the same experience. Seeing images move, live on your screen at 15 or 25fps - not waiting for 15 seconds per frame - is a very different experience.

For indoor viewing, on the ASIPro you should be able to sit inside and do everything from your tablet: control and viewing.

Your mount should be controllable from SkySafari 6 or the Celestron version of it. The ASI app will allow you to see things from the camera.

If you want it on your TV it'll be a lot more complicated. On iPad you can stream to a TV using AirPlay. For Android I'm sure you can do something similar with ChromeCast, or other utility. There may also be a bit of lag and so on.

If, later on, you are interested in working with a computers to get performance you could also use a Windows Tablet/Laptop/Surface Pro etc with https://www.sharpcap.co.uk And do a bit more.

(Since you ask about laptops, I'd personally go for a Lenovo Thinkpad or a Surface Pro. Get plenty ram (32+), and an i5/i7. It's just for astro you don't need a monster. However, if your laptop has a tendency to take a beating go Thinkpad. I used to drop my Thinkpad from about 4 feet onto the floor as a party trick to show how resilient it was. It never broke in five years and tens of drops. It was also ultra thin and light for the time. I met someone on their test team years ago. They used to do stupid stuff like throw them out of cars at 60mph, run over them and flush them down toilets and they'd take a real beating before they died, so I was pretty confident! I once poured coffee all over it by accident and Thinkpads have a drainage system that channels the liquid out. I killed the keyboard but it is a user replaceable module and a new one came the next day.)

From your PC you can explore more astrophoto stuff or start streaming it to your 8K TV if you feel like a technical challenge!

But I'd stick with the ASIPro for the moment. It's simpler easier and works on your tablet. And since you want colour, that makes the camera choice.

So, to sum up buy the:

  • ASI385
  • ASIAir Pro
  • Reducer -- Celestron f6.3 and/or f4 Night Owl and/or f2 Hyperstar

And that should do exactly what you want. 

There are many variations or alternatives, but it comes down to the trade offs of personal preference.

I think this is the simplest and best version that should work for you.

--

One final suggestion though...

If you really have absolutely zero plans on ever using your telescope for visual then before you can't return it you may want to look at switching the actual optical telescope for a Celestron RASA telescope.

Very few people actually go this route because it is very restrictive. You have to really want it!

The Evo 9.25 is far more flexible.

But...

The RASA is a very similar to what you have bought, only it has a hyperstar-like optical element permanently built in.

That makes it more sturdy and simpler to use. It always just works.

The hyperstar can be fiddly to align and you need to be very careful when you change it in and out since your handling fragile optics. Focus and collimation at f2 can also be fiddly as someone mentioned. The RASA gets round all that.

The big RASA disadvantage is that you can never look through it like a normal telescope. It is just a massive specially designed camera lens for astronomy.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/optical-tube-assemblies/celestron-rowe-ackermann-astrograph-rasa-8.html

The 8" is slightly smaller and more portable than your 9.25, but it also comes in an 11" version if you have the money and space!

You will need to buy/keep the mount for it (like your Evo mount), since it doesn't come in a package.

The only other disadvantage is that it will have a very slightly wider field of view than your 9.25 with hyperstar.

Edited by London_David
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Once again my thanks for extremely helpful advice. 

David lot of food for thought there. Thanks for taking the time.

The problem with the night owl looks like it will be lack of availability. 

I have decided to go for a better camera from the start, hopefully making the right choice and it lasting me!

My main program image processing work will be done on my desktop with NVMe drives and built in wifi, bluetooth. 

So the priority for the laptop or windows tablet would be capture software etc. And being able to run them. Whilst out and about as well.

As if I'm correct some software only runs on windows. 

My Tab S4 is a brilliant android tablet fast and high resolution very responsive, I'm typing this now on it's keyboard. 

I have an assortment of external drives for storage. 

I have done a lot of reading and viewing on YouTube to try to find the information I require, but once again end up with mixed messages or a problem I hadn't thought of popping up.

Or I end  up watching astronomy videos with nothing to do with what I'm looking for.😂

Ended up on an Aussies tube a guy called Dylan O'Donnell, who just seemed to make sense even if I hadn't a clue what he was talking about half the time. 

I have no problem viewing my PC, tablet and phone wirelessly to my TV.

Using Samsung's own software and I also have HDMI and ethernet powerline and wireless senders available which I use now and then with my projector. 

(For 3d movies usually. )

My router is near my TV and cable box in sitting room,  both connected by ethernet, I have a hidden ethernet cable which leads to my dining room where I will set  up an Asus wireless router as an access point specifically for astrophotography. Which would mean one pane of glass between scope and wifi. 

I will put the Hyperstar on the back burner for now, and get a focal reducer .

Definitely purchasing depending on availability. 

Celestron focus motor for the 9.25 the only one I have seen and know for certain fits my scope. 

Either the celestron f6.3 or the Night owl f4, any advantage with my scope of one over the other? 

I will get the ASIAIR pro and a ZWO camera. I can run from the mains to start with, then will think about a power pack for the accessories. 

Dr Strange mentioned the ASI533mc on another thread. Which to me after viewing reviews, looks like it would suit my needs.

I have also looked at.....

ASI294MC PRO 

ASI183MC PRO 

ASI533MC PRO

The three of them cooled.

Any thoughts? (Or a better camera in price range for what I intend to  do?)

I find it strange that less and larger pixels can be an advantage sometimes in astrophotography,  over smaller and more megapixels.

Just seems counterintuitive. 

Once  again  thanks  for any information you can supply. 

Just to reiterate I know very little on  this subject, so if you see I'm making a mistake or I'm missing something totally obvious, please tell me.

The one thing I can't do is slow down, I have set course and need to start rowing.😉

 I haven't used the scope outside yet! Skies have been woeful when I have had a chance to view. Also why I think a colour camera would be advantageous, as I would need more viewing time for getting all the filters done for mono.

I bought my grandson an led white A4 tracing board a while back, that got me thinking about the needed flats.

So I bought an A3 one with 3 brightness levels, it's pure white and has no obvious banding. 

Would this work? Or has my grandson got a better tracing board? 

Cheers Barry  

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

If it’s for Eea use then you want a faster scope (lower f ratio) so on the specs (I’ve not used it) the night owl will give you a better result. Images will be much faster to appear.

On specs alone the order of appropriateness for eea on the cameras 533, 294, 183. The 533 is ahead of the other two because it has lower read noise and similar or higher qe. If you like the of the 533 and it’s in your budget, go with that.

I’ve never used any flats in eea, it always seemed the point of eea to me was to be as quick and similar to live as possible. I do use darks sometimes because the software can integrate them on the fly.

More pixels give you resolution, but you trade off resolution for light sensitivity. It’s like having an array of buckets lined up to measure rain. Lots of narrow buckets can tell you where the rain falls more accurately, but wider buckets will catch more rain - any single larger bucket is more likely to catch a single drop of rain. You could add up the water in the smaller buckets together to approximate the size of a wider bucket and in a perfect world you can get the same result - that’s what binning is. But it’s always a bit inaccurate - that’s what read noise is. Qe is how much water is lost when you try to count the amount of water in the bucket. The problem in astronomy is that there is very little rain (light) from the sources, so any water you loose can be significant. Mostly now, on the new cameras, smaller buckets are more effective because you can get resolution if you want it, and bin to get the sensitivity if you need it. This is especially if your buckets are providing empty resolution because on any given night your telescope or seeing may not be able to support more detail (magnification).

Older camera designs were very bad at adding the buckets together and there would be lots of noise when it was done, hence why sometimes it’s better to have fewer, bigger buckets so there’s less adding up after the fact.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, London_David said:

The 533 is ahead of the other two because it has lower read noise and similar or higher qe.

I would actually put 294 first of the three because it has the largest sensor area.

Largest sensor means that you can pair it with larger scope of same F/ratio to get same FOV and consequently larger aperture - more light gathering for the same integration time.

image.png.d6ab2a7f761ad5e255261e07ce876515.png

Red FOV is 533 paired with 130PDS.

Green FOV is 294 paired with 150PDS. 33% more light gathering - same (or larger FOV - due to difference in sensor aspect ratio).

Blue FOV is 294 paired with 200PDS. 136% more light gathering for about same (or a bit smaller in this case? - again aspect ratio) FOV.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, London_David said:

More pixels give you resolution, but you trade off resolution for light sensitivity. It’s like having an array of buckets lined up to measure rain. Lots of narrow buckets can tell you where the rain falls more accurately, but wider buckets will catch more rain - any single larger bucket is more likely to catch a single drop of rain. You could add up the water in the smaller buckets together to approximate the size of a wider bucket and in a perfect world you can get the same result - that’s what binning is. But it’s always a bit inaccurate - that’s what read noise is. Qe is how much water is lost when you try to count the amount of water in the bucket. The problem in astronomy is that there is very little rain (light) from the sources, so any water you loose can be significant. Mostly now, on the new cameras, smaller buckets are more effective because you can get resolution if you want it, and bin to get the sensitivity if you need it. This is especially if your buckets are providing empty resolution because on any given night your telescope or seeing may not be able to support more detail (magnification).

Brilliant - I love this analogy.

Thank you!

:)

P.S. Following this thread with interest.

P.P.S. I guess when you've got 'a hole in your bucket' it equates to a bad pixel ;)

 

Edited by Adreneline
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.