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Andromeda - Stellerium Says.... what am i doing wrong


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We have had our scope a while but still very much beginners, I have been trying to get to know Stellerium and have entered details for our scope and lenses, to get an idea of what we should see.

We have a Skywatcher 130P

After searching for Amdromeda as M31 and switching to Ocular view i get the result in the attached image,

Before i look at staying up all night in the hope of seeing it high enough in the sky looking like this does the image reflect what i should expect to see through the Skywatcher 130P or do i have settings wrong in Stellerium ?

I just feel this image is to good or am i underselling the scope?

Thank You

M31.PNG

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Im an imager not a viewer. However, I have seen Andromeda through a large C11 scope. And, although you wont see it that good, you will see a mucky brown disk about half as good as that. And if you live in a low light pollution area you may see as much detail as that but it will be almost a black and white image...with a little brown. If I recall correctly.

Either way, yes, its up late, and maybe other galaxies are in better position. But if its M31 you want, good luck :)

And remember, the sky is always turning. Andromeda will be better positioned later in the year so you wont need to be up so late. 

M101 and M51 are high in the sky now.

Have fun.

 

Edited by Star101
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With a small scope and depending on the levels of light pollution M31 might look something like this:

http://deepskysketch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/M31-second.png

You need to use your lowest magnification.

This time of year is not great for observing galaxies - it does not get properly dark.

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You won’t see deep sky objects like they appear in images. Those images are often made up of multiple hours of exposure time with very sensitive cameras. If you want to see a more realistic example of how things look, take a look at sketches people have done.

It’s worth remembering that those sketches were done by a very careful observer and a quick glance through the eyepiece won’t show you that much detail. It takes patience to learn how to see faint detail and to properly dark adapt. 

Don’t be disappointed if objects don’t look like you’d expect them to. I find that the more I learn about an object, the more appreciation I have that I can actually see it at all. The light from the Andromeda Galaxy travelled 2.5 million years to reach your eyes!

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Stellarium will show very nice deep exposure image that does not correspond to what can be seen with a telescope

image.png.b2e2e7501c14e3ee92bd16dbc042a7d1.png

You can get a sense of what it will look like if you adjust light pollution setting. I live in Bortle 8 light pollution, and when I enter that value in settings:

image.png.d5dae124d3ab8f65ab3d8d6daf2a462a.png

View of M31 looks much more realistic - but still not like in telescope:

image.png.5c375865c7403cb3e0df09a13df10151.png

In telescope it won't look so "flat" - it will have rather visible core and very hard to invisible outer spiral arms.

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Thank you to everyone who has replied, Some very helpful information there,

So i need to adjust the light  pollution levels in Stellarium, I had changed some settings related to this but need to look a little further,

I would be happy seeing seeing something like the images that have been posted, The scope was purchased for my son but i had always wanted one, We can spend plenty of time happily looking at the moon with it but need to keep the interest going by moving on, we have had failed attempts at finding things, we have had some success, I have explained  that we are not going to see things like you have seen in pictures, i want to make sure he isn't going to get disappointed or put off. Hes not a big fan of waiting around so have to need to make sure expectation levels are right,

I only looked at M31 now because it came up  in something i was looking at, i am building a list of targets to aim for and some of those are going to be in better positions for us to view from our location now, 

Im also starting to look at taking some images, Have a Canon 350D that is not getting the use these days it used to so im reading up on taking multi images and stacking with it, starting small with just the camera on a tripod then moving to the camera on the scope, 

Down the road i would love to look at some tracking if the interest remains there for us both.

ts also a little warmer out at night this time of year :)

Thanks Again

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23 hours ago, John said:

With a small scope and depending on the levels of light pollution M31 might look something like this:

http://deepskysketch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/M31-second.png

You need to use your lowest magnification.

This time of year is not great for observing galaxies - it does not get properly dark.

This is pretty much spot on how I first saw it, using my ST80, back in Jan/Feb. I was also able to see a similar view (but slightly less distinct) in my 8x56 binoculars.

I seem to recall it was quite high up in the sky back then.

Edited by HollyHound
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15 hours ago, KeithD said:

The scope was purchased for my son but i had always wanted one, We can spend plenty of time happily looking at the moon with it but need to keep the interest going by moving on, we have had failed attempts at finding things, we have had some success,

I had bought my 130eq also for same reasons for my daughter, but its now become my hobby 🙂 The mirror on yours is a similar size as mine so you should get lovely images of the moon and Jupiter and Saturn once they are visible during at more convenient times (atm they are visible in early morning). You could also get your son involved in taking pictures through the camera phone. I am attaching an image of the moon that I took using an iPhone 8 held next to the 23mm eyepiece by a £10 holder.

IMG_0671.jpeg

Edited by AstroMuni
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8 hours ago, AstroMuni said:

I had bought my 130eq also for same reasons for my daughter, but its now become my hobby 🙂 The mirror on yours is a similar size as mine so you should get lovely images of the moon and Jupiter and Saturn once they are visible during at more convenient times (atm they are visible in early morning). You could also get your son involved in taking pictures through the camera phone. I am attaching an image of the moon that I took using an iPhone 8 held next to the 23mm eyepiece by a £10 holder.

IMG_0671.jpeg

Lovely picture, I think a phone holder would be a good shout,

I have taken a few with the 350D attached but i need to get a shutter release cable and it hasn't got live view, think the phone would be easier to use together,

I want him to learn the imaging with me, both taking shots and processing them.

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On 16/06/2020 at 21:28, KeithD said:

Thank you to everyone who has replied, Some very helpful information there,

So i need to adjust the light  pollution levels in Stellarium, I had changed some settings related to this but need to look a little further,

I would be happy seeing seeing something like the images that have been posted, The scope was purchased for my son but i had always wanted one, We can spend plenty of time happily looking at the moon with it but need to keep the interest going by moving on, we have had failed attempts at finding things, we have had some success, I have explained  that we are not going to see things like you have seen in pictures, i want to make sure he isn't going to get disappointed or put off. Hes not a big fan of waiting around so have to need to make sure expectation levels are right,

I only looked at M31 now because it came up  in something i was looking at, i am building a list of targets to aim for and some of those are going to be in better positions for us to view from our location now, 

Im also starting to look at taking some images, Have a Canon 350D that is not getting the use these days it used to so im reading up on taking multi images and stacking with it, starting small with just the camera on a tripod then moving to the camera on the scope, 

Down the road i would love to look at some tracking if the interest remains there for us both.

ts also a little warmer out at night this time of year :)

Thanks Again

At this time of year, M13 - the globular in Hercules is well-placed and higher up earlier

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1 hour ago, Tenor Viol said:

At this time of year, M13 - the globular in Hercules is well-placed and higher up earlier

Thank you, Another one for the list, just taken a look online and will be a good test,

We spent a bit of time this evening looking at images on the forum and across the net, a bit of time on Stelvision to get an idea on what our different eye pieces will show us, i now have a new eye piece on my shopping list, but most importantly an understanding of why we will not see X Y or Z as well as we see detail in the moon.

Hopefully the weekend will be dry and clear and we can get out in the garden.

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16 hours ago, KeithD said:

I want him to learn the imaging with me, both taking shots and processing them.

This picture is without any processing other than cropping the image and adjusting brightness, contrast using the std Photos app on the iphone.

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In all honest, I'd say M31 isn't a good subject for new observers with small(ish) telescopes.

I used to consider M31 to be a fairly easy naked eye target with younger eyes and less light pollution but it didn't look that much more exciting through my 6in Newtonian!!

It's a large object with low contrast features. You can pick out it's satellite galaxies and with practice start seeing some details in the spiral arms. but without a large scope and dark skies it's really difficult to reconcile the telescopic view with the long exposure images you see here and in books. They are all Photoshopped (or other proprietary image processing software)!

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5 minutes ago, Paul M said:

They are all Photoshopped

I resent this term being used to describe treatment of astronomical images as it implies changing contents of the image that will dramatically impact truthfulness of subject being displayed.

Many imagers go to great lengths to preserve documentary value of astro photographs and try not to alter image in any way other than to show what has been captured by camera sensor.

Distinction between visual appearance and photograph of astronomical object comes from difference in sensitivity between human eye and camera sensor and also the difference in linearity. Camera sensor is mostly linear while human vision is logarithmic in nature (that is why we have magnitude system - what we perceive as linear brightness decrease corresponds to log function).

Process of digitally manipulating captured data has the purpose of transforming linear response from camera sensor into log space of human vision. It also "compresses" dynamic range of the target in less space that can be shown by a single image either on paper or on computer screen (remember, you can easily observe two stars with mag5 or higher difference at the eyepiece and that will be x100 intensity difference between them - try showing that nicely on computer screen with total of 255 different intensity levels, let alone on a printed photograph).

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11 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

I resent this term being used to describe treatment of astronomical images as it implies changing contents of the image that will dramatically impact truthfulness of subject being displayed.

I used the the term "Photoshopped" intentionally. For the very reasons you give. What is represented in most deep sky images can't ever, from any angle or distance or with any degree of dark dark adaptation be perceived by the human eye. An example being the naked eye view of the Milky Way from a dark site, it still doesn't look like a spiral arm of M31 depicted in deep images. That view doesn't exist outside of processed images.

The images may well represent the physical nature of the subject with great detail (let's be honest, some get overcooked!) but as an example of what an observer may see visually they are, in general, misleading. Sometimes it's best to use language that beginners understand.

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10 minutes ago, Paul M said:

What is represented in most deep sky images can't ever, from any angle or distance or with any degree of dark dark adaptation be perceived by the human eye

I agree, does that mean that what is captured in the image is not part of reality or it shows that human vision is lacking in some ways?

Would you call this image Photoshopped?

M31_Layered_UV_and_Optical.jpg

No human being will ever be able to see something like this - because it was recorded in UV light.

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I'm a visual astronomer only, not into imaging at all, made my mind up early on that I wasn't going down that avenue. The easier DSOs seen either with binoculars or a small scope will be little more than grey smudges. Darker skies, better seeing, better optics, more aperture may gain better definition and some detail but will never match that which are shown in the kind of images seen on line and in books and magazines. The satisfaction, well for me anyway, is appreciating just what is that is being revealed live through the eyepiece into the consciousness. M31, no  matter how well or poorly the "smudge" is revealed, will always be a wondrous sight to behold. 

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27 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

because it was recorded in UV light.

And it was 'shopped! 🤣

19 minutes ago, Alfian said:

M31, no  matter how well or poorly the "smudge" is revealed, will always be a wondrous sight to behold. 

Agreed. Having been at the eyepiece for 45 years on and off, I've wondered endlessly at faint grey smudges. Even now, as I'm taking baby steps in imaging, I wonder at a few featureless pixels that represent an achievement in reaching new horizons.

And praise be to imaging! It has given me a new life, a new energy as a stargazer. My home sky is disappearing in sky glow and my eyes don't see like they used to!

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  • 2 weeks later...

The M31 Andromeda galaxy is one of those galaxies that captivates many. I've had a rather obsessive fascination of this galaxy for years. 

I've travelled to some very dark sky places across Wales, Colorado, Teide of Tenerife and the Rocky Mountains of Canada but nothing will beat the naked eye view I managed to get of M31 in the Australian outback. So much so I had to double take and replot my view of the sky from Pegasus across to the North West - and down from Cassiopia - but there it was, hanging overhead, like a huge whispy but immensely brilliantly bright cloud. Breathtaking.

Anyway on with the post, I also have the 130p and I'm afraid you'll see it as no more than a whispy faint cloud. Averting your view to either side of the galaxy - rather than direct at it - will help. 

I had a 150p a few years back (slightly bigger) , and a pair of 80 20 binos, and tbh I got almost identical views of clarity.

A whispy cloud is still an amazing sight to me of our nearest 'big' galaxy - but I'm afraid it won't look much like photos or those planetarium views without capturing it through your own dslr (although attaching a dslr to a 130p is very troublesome). 

As Andromeda is considered to be the furthest thing we can see with our naked eye, all other galaxies will be by default even fainter.

Don't let this put you off. The wonders of the sky, the stories and the vast distances are enough to keep us all looking skywards - but to achieve those clearer jaw dropping views you will need to venture in to the more expensive world of astrophotography. 

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On 17/06/2020 at 04:28, KeithD said:

Thank you to everyone who has replied, Some very helpful information there,

So i need to adjust the light  pollution levels in Stellarium, I had changed some settings related to this but need to look a little further,

I would be happy seeing seeing something like the images that have been posted, The scope was purchased for my son but i had always wanted one, We can spend plenty of time happily looking at the moon with it but need to keep the interest going by moving on, we have had failed attempts at finding things, we have had some success, I have explained  that we are not going to see things like you have seen in pictures, i want to make sure he isn't going to get disappointed or put off. Hes not a big fan of waiting around so have to need to make sure expectation levels are right,

I only looked at M31 now because it came up  in something i was looking at, i am building a list of targets to aim for and some of those are going to be in better positions for us to view from our location now, 

Im also starting to look at taking some images, Have a Canon 350D that is not getting the use these days it used to so im reading up on taking multi images and stacking with it, starting small with just the camera on a tripod then moving to the camera on the scope, 

Down the road i would love to look at some tracking if the interest remains there for us both.

ts also a little warmer out at night this time of year :)

Thanks Again

1757149502_BodeandCigarGalaxy19120.thumb.jpeg.f806049eecdb1c869fc57c9b03815974.jpeg Hi. Don't

expect too much of a view with galaxies or nebulae. This is a sketch of what I saw through a 4-inch Newtonian reflector. These are the Bode and Cigar galaxies. Often times Stellarium doesn't represent what you would see visually. Buy the book 'Turn Left at Orion' for a more accurate illustration.

Edited by Nerf_Caching
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I have not visited the forum for a week or so and see this post has picked up several more replies full of great information and discussion.

No Andromeda viewing yet but have  had the scope out a couple times, not going for anything in particular just looking at what ever we see,

Did get a great chance to look at Jupiter / Saturn (think it was Jupiter) as they passed low by through a gap in the surrounding buildings & trees, 20 to 30 minutes trying to avoid the street light threatening to spoil things and find this bright spot that i could see clearly by eye,

I think during the evening moving around areas of the sky i had adjust things  on the scope incorrectly and no matter what i never found Jupiter, Needed to complexity reset,

Rain stopped further attempts tonight but that is now Target No 1 for the remaining time it will be passing in this position.

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