Which Herschel Wedge

[Portech7]

Hi all

Which Herschel wedge would be a good start:

Altair Herschel wedge

Baader

Or 

Lacerta

For use with a Celestron Omni xlt120 refractor. 

The Lacerta has a surprisingly good following from what I've seen and is a fair bit cheaper. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Portech7
Typo

[johninderby]

The Baader is very good but actualy the Lacerta will give similar views. Have owned both and really not much difference.

Here’s a pic of the Lacerta with an Orion 120 refractor with an upgraded Skywatcher crayford which is basicly the same as your scope.,Was a very good combination. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Edited June 8, 2020 by johninderby

[Highburymark]

I’d agree - thought the Lacerta was very bright and clear, and much better value than the Baader. 

[Portech7]

Johninderby, I really have been stuck with this as the price difference is quite substantial. 

I was thinking the Altair unit looked very similar to the baader and around £250.

But that Lacerta, price under £200.

 

[Solar B]

The Baader is extremely good and would most likely handle the highest mags for 

imaging ect ..... but I'm guessing all your really needing is the Lacerta however

I'd probably opt for the Altair simply just because it looks a lot better.

Brian 

[Stu]

28 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

I’d agree - thought the Lacerta was very bright and clear, and much better value than the Baader. 

Have you used these side by side Mark? Would be interested to try one as they do get good comments and seem very good value.

[Solar B]

Another attractive option could be the Lunt 2" one currently reduced to £260

Brian 

[Peter Drew]

I bought a used 1.25" Lunt HW for a good price, I had the chance to compare it to a Lacerta, if I was buying new I would buy the Lacerta.    🙂  

[Highburymark]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

Have you used these side by side Mark? Would be interested to try one as they do get good comments and seem very good value.

No I didn’t Stu. The Lacerta I had was the 1.25” version, but my time with it coincided with the middle of solar minimum, so didn’t get many chances to stretch its legs. I also didn’t binoview with it, which I do now. It was clearly a capable bit of kit - lovely sharp views when the seeing behaved. But I now have a different set up shamelessly stolen from you - use the Baader wedge with 25mm eps and barlow with spacers to change magnification. I think the optical margins between the different wedges are quite slim - what really made the difference to the enjoyment of WL for me was binoviewing rather than changing wedge.

[Portech7]

I can see my wife ready with a knife if I bought a binoview as well 🤣🤣

[Stu]

15 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

No I didn’t Stu. The Lacerta I had was the 1.25” version, but my time with it coincided with the middle of solar minimum, so didn’t get many chances to stretch its legs. I also didn’t binoview with it, which I do now. It was clearly a capable bit of kit - lovely sharp views when the seeing behaved. But I now have a different set up shamelessly stolen from you - use the Baader wedge with 25mm eps and barlow with spacers to change magnification. I think the optical margins between the different wedges are quite slim - what really made the difference to the enjoyment of WL for me was binoviewing rather than changing wedge.

Interesting. Would love to do a side by side with them. Glad you find that setup works well, I agree that binoviewers make a big difference and I much prefer adding or removing spacers than messing around changing eyepieces. Much more comfortable sticking with the 25mms too.

[AdeKing]

32 minutes ago, Stu said:

Interesting. Would love to do a side by side with them. Glad you find that setup works well, I agree that binoviewers make a big difference and I much prefer adding or removing spacers than messing around changing eyepieces. Much more comfortable sticking with the 25mms too.

This is something I've been meaning to do for a while as I currently have both the 2" Lacerta and the Baader Cool Ceramic.

I only got the Baader because I got a good used price on the imaging version last year and I had funds available to purchase.

I'd intended to use a quick changer and my Maxbrights to binoview with the Baader wedge but the setup won't reach focus in any of my OTAs with the 1.7x GPC that I have and I don't want to do a @Peter Drew and cut any of the tubes down 😉.

If the weather stays clear and the sunspot persists I'll try to do a side by side this week.

Back to the original post, the Lacerta is very good value for money and. Is also very good quality.

Ade

[Solar B]

One advantage the Altair and Baader have is that the heat sink element can also 

act as a great finder meaning you can be on the Sun in seconds 

I've not used a Lacerta wedge but seem to recall some reservations about its 

viewing angle or am I mistaken ?

Brian 

[Rusted]

6 hours ago, Solar B said:

One advantage the Altair and Baader have is that the heat sink element can also 

act as a great finder meaning you can be on the Sun in seconds 

I've not used a Lacerta wedge but seem to recall some reservations about its 

viewing angle or am I mistaken ?

Brian 

That were me m'Lud. Guilty as charged.

I regularly use my 2" Lacerta as a finder simply by watching the sun's huge image fill the heat sink through the window in the bottom.

As the sun rises higher in summer it can be difficult to get behind or below the Lacerta for visual or binoviewing.
The Brewster Angle is not as comfortable as the usual 90° jobbies in that respect.
If you are using a camera then you won't care.

The rotating top section of the Lacerta is handy for housing a single polarizing filter for dimming to taste and/or needs.

[AdeKing]

8 hours ago, Solar B said:

One advantage the Altair and Baader have is that the heat sink element can also 

act as a great finder meaning you can be on the Sun in seconds 

I've not used a Lacerta wedge but seem to recall some reservations about its 

viewing angle or am I mistaken ?

Brian 

 

1 hour ago, Rusted said:

That were me m'Lud. Guilty as charged.

I regularly use my 2" Lacerta as a finder simply by watching the sun's huge image fill the heat sink through the window in the bottom.

As the sun rises higher in summer it can be difficult to get behind or below the Lacerta for visual or binoviewing.
The Brewster Angle is not as comfortable as the usual 90° jobbies in that respect.
If you are using a camera then you won't care.

The rotating top section of the Lacerta is handy for housing a single polarizing filter for dimming to taste and/or needs.

As you say, the Lacerta is not the normal 90 degree angle and depending on setup can make viewing the summer sun a bit more uncomfortable.

However, I tend to use a short tube Frac (ST102) for my white light viewing and I never found the angle of the wedge to present me with any real problems, even in midsummer.

However with a longer OTA I can see that it could be more problematic.

[Stu]

20 minutes ago, AdeKing said:

 

As you say, the Lacerta is not the normal 90 degree angle and depending on setup can make viewing the summer sun a bit more uncomfortable.

However, I tend to use a short tube Frac (ST102) for my white light viewing and I never found the angle of the wedge to present me with any real problems, even in midsummer.

However with a longer OTA I can see that it could be more problematic.

Yes, I think with my setup including binoviewers and extension tubes it would be pretty awkward, even though the Tak is quite compact.

@AdeKing do you have an ED scope at all? I’ve always thought that the better figuring and lower Spherical Abberation in these should give more detail, particularly at higher powers.

[PeterW]

Be interesting to know how these new fangled Units compare to my old secondhand Intes model. 1.25”, nothing inside except the wedge, excess light exits onto a piece of metal foil tape!  The views look good, but you have to be careful to make sure the correct filters are in place. For imaging this slows me tonuse less filtration to keep the exposures shorter. I like the ability to align using the translucent window at the back, I was looking at the suns light on the tube baffles to get things roughly aligned.

A 1.25” model Is fine as you won’t need long focal length eyepieces (unless you have a very long f-ratio Refractor) and the seeing  will limit What maximum power is possible, a zoom can help tune things. Never tried a polariser to tune the brightness, but will be picking one up soon to try.

peter

[Solar B]

It appears that the Lacertas viewing angle

could be problematic (I’m surprised this

wasn't raised before) but you can also 

use its heat sink as a finder !

I ve used a few H wedges over the yrs but 

I’m not sure I’d be in a big rush to adopt 

the brewster angle 🤓

Brian 

[kirkster501]

I'm not an expert in Solar by any means and this is a subject I want to get more involved in.   I bought a used Baader Solar wedge off of ABS and use it with my TEC140 refractor and it is superb.

https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/baader-cool-ceramic-safety-herschel-prism.html

[Trikeflyer]

I have the Altair one.  Can’t fault it. Great views, easy to use, as has been said - easy to use the back plate as a finder. Haven’t used the others so can’t compare but I can say that the Altair one does give great views.

Steve 

[AdeKing]

4 hours ago, Stu said:

Yes, I think with my setup including binoviewers and extension tubes it would be pretty awkward, even though the Tak is quite compact.

@AdeKing do you have an ED scope at all? I’ve always thought that the better figuring and lower Spherical Abberation in these should give more detail, particularly at higher powers.

Stu,

Yes, I have three ED scopes, a WO ZS66SD (most used), a Celestron XLT102 ED and a Skywatcher ED120.

When I set up on the Vixen GP or AZ Pro I will use the ED120 or ED100, but most of the time I use the SolarQuest for White Light and as such the longer tubes and weight of the ED100 and ED120 make that a no-go, so the ZS66 gets most use.

The ZS66 gets most solar use as everything fits into the small flight case that it came with.  However, because the ZS66 is so very short and is fitted with a Moonlite it is very back end heavy and difficult balance with a 2" Wedge and Binoviewers as it needs an offset counterweight (the design of which I shamelessly copied from you), which kind of outweighs its convenience. 

So most of the time when I use the 2" wedge and Binoviewer I tend to opt for the ST102.  Yes, the ED scopes do give better detail and mean that there both the disc and limb are in sharp focus at the same time, but I think that the ST102 is rather underrated and not to shabby for WL solar.

With the ED100/ED120 the brewster angle of the Lacerta can make it a bit interesting when the sun is very high, but the attached image shows it set up on the AZ Pro today with the sun at about 60 degrees altitude and not too uncomfortable though as you can see from the photo, you tend to look straight forward into, rather than down into the wedge as you would with the Baader. 

Edit: If the sun gets much above 60 degrees altitude then things get more interesting as the eyepiece Starts to point diagonally towards the ground if viewing from behind, so in those instances I tend to rotate the wedge and look into it from one side.  However, as the wedge is open at the bottom, you need to ensure there isn't anyone around who is likely to investigate the wedge closely or put a finger inside to see how hot it is.

The brewster angle does actually give a greater range of dimming with a single polariser (as the description for the wedge says), not an earth shattering difference but noticeable.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by AdeKing
Extra info added

[Stu]

Thanks @AdeKing, interesting.

I guess using binoviewers probably dims the view a little anyway, and also makes it impractical to rotate eyepieces to vary the brightness (unless you put one in each eyepiece?)

I didn’t realise the Lacerta was open at the bottom, I’ve got used to the CoolWedge being fairly idiot proof from that perspective. I do sometimes put it at an angle and view from the side of looking down into it is too high to reach comfortably.

That 102 is a lovely looking scope! F10?

[AdeKing]

59 minutes ago, Stu said:

Thanks @AdeKing, interesting.

I guess using binoviewers probably dims the view a little anyway, and also makes it impractical to rotate eyepieces to vary the brightness (unless you put one in each eyepiece?)

I didn’t realise the Lacerta was open at the bottom, I’ve got used to the CoolWedge being fairly idiot proof from that perspective. I do sometimes put it at an angle and view from the side of looking down into it is too high to reach comfortably.

That 102 is a lovely looking scope! F10?

Stu,

Yes, the 102 is lovely and f/9 I think, as I think that I remember reading somewhere that the decals on the tube were wrong and its actually 100mm with a 900mm focal length not 102mm so identical to the Skywatcher ED100.

The paintwork has got a bit scuffed up recently, not sure how, probably me putting stuff in the scope bag on top of it when I'd been caught out by the rain a while back.

No light directly exits the wedge, unlike the earlier Baader and Intes wedges that could set fire to your shoes, the light is projected directly onto the really meaty heatsink that never gets more than tepid.  There are threaded holes in the bottom so you could fit a cover if you wanted to, but I guess being open it keeps the whole assembly cooler.  But using it around children needs a bit of forethought.  When I use it for outreach, I normally put the end of a pencil in there for a couple of seconds to let it start smoking to reinforce the fact that it is very hot and also to demonstrate why you should never look at the sun through a normal telescope or binoculars. 

More pics attached.

 

 

 

[Alan White]

Interesting to see the inside or back of that Lacerta wedge.

I run a 1.25" Lunt HW and have not looked at others.

[johninderby]

Bit of info.

https://en.lacerta-optics.com/information/pdf/Herschel-LAC1s_ASSEMBLING.pdf

https://en.lacerta-optics.com/information/pdf/Herschel-LAC1s_RIGHT_COVER.pdf

https://en.lacerta-optics.com/information/pdf/Herschel-LAC1s_standard-Herschel-Wedge.pdf