First scope what to buy？

[Bc0428]

Hello guys! I’m new to astrophotography and I was wondering what to buy as my first telescope.

I’d like to take photographs of planets mainly, and some DSo sometimes
i initially thought of the Celestron c5, as it has a great focal length and not so bad aperture which could allow me to observe and photograph quite a number of objects.
 But then I read some forums saying that the aperture is much more important, and as I’m not planning to buy a guider at the moment, it seems that it could be difficult to track objects with the c5 manually due to its focal length.

after a second thought, the William optics z61 came to my mind, it has great focal ratio and wide fov which might be easier to spot objects for newbie like me

however, I guess it’s not suitable for planetary photography? And how superior than c5 it is in terms of Dso photography ?

thanks a lot!

[scitmon]

Photographing planets and DSO's involve very different capture techniques.  The best way to capture planets is with a long focal length telescope, such as the c5, with a camera that can take as many frames as possible per scond.  Then using software, you pick out the clearest frames to stack together to produce your image, hence having a high framerate camera being advatageous to get more clear images. 

Photographing DSO's is a lot different.  You need to track your target accurately with an equatorial mount, use a camera to take long exposure photographs (which damands accurate tracking or you will get star trails).  This is where a wide field, low focal length telescope such as the z61 would come in, which puts less demands on the tracking acurracy.  

I would suggest you think about which you want to focus on more and pursue that.  If you want to go down the DSO route, reading the book "Making Every Photon Count" before spending significant money is wise.

 

 

 

[Bc0428]

10 minutes ago, scitmon said:

Photographing planets and DSO's involve very different capture techniques.  The best way to capture planets is with a long focal length telescope, such as the c5, with a camera that can take as many frames as possible per scond.  Then using software, you pick out the clearest frames to stack together to produce your image, hence having a high framerate camera being advatageous to get more clear images. 

Photographing DSO's is a lot different.  You need to track your target accurately with an equatorial mount, use a camera to take long exposure photographs (which damands accurate tracking or you will get star trails).  This is where a wide field, low focal length telescope such as the z61 would come in, which puts less demands on the tracking acurracy.  

I would suggest you think about which you want to focus on more and pursue that.  If you want to go down the DSO route, reading the book "Making Every Photon Count" before spending significant money is wise.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot!

In your opinion, is planetary photography easier to get familiar with? Since I live in a severely light polluted city, Dso might be impossible to  capture even with large aperture. Besides, I was planning to get a mount when I am much more familiar with this hobby (financial considerations), so it should not be a good idea to start with Dso...

Since I couldn’t keep tracking Dso, can c5 do some decent Dso observing other than shooting planets?

[Carbon Brush]

Hello and welcome to SGL.

Excellent advice from @scitmon

Adding that astrophotography can be like tearing up £50 notes for a hobby.

Why not just look and enjoy first? It takes a while to get used to equipment setup and running it in the dark.
Doing any photography (beyond a smartphone in front of the eyepiece) means you have more things to think about and look after.

Just my thoughts. Enjoy the journey.

David.
 

[scitmon]

  

9 minutes ago, Bc0428 said:

In your opinion, is planetary photography easier to get familiar with?

I've never actaully tried planetary photography so I don't feel qualified to answer this, but in theory, to me it sounds easier to get into.  @Carbon Brush 's idea about using a smartphone is an excellent idea, you can buy phone mounts that clamp on to your eye piece so that might be worth looking into.  You might also want to conside that planets can go long periods below the horizon, but the moon is around a lot more. 

9 minutes ago, Bc0428 said:

Since I live in a severely light polluted city, Dso might be impossible to  capture even with large aperture. 

Since I couldn’t keep tracking Dso, can c5 do some decent Dso observing other than shooting planets?

Observing DSO's in heavy light pollution might be very problomatic.  I would have a read of this thread 

   to manage your expectations.  Capturing DSO's is narrowband might be the way to go if you pursue that route, but it's expensive.

Edited May 20, 2020 by scitmon

[Bc0428]

12 minutes ago, Carbon Brush said:

 

Thanks a lot @Carbon Brush and @scitmon

I’ve spent the past few years on landscape photography and I do enjoy every process of it, so I think i would enjoy AP as well after some practices. 
The thing that makes me struggle between the 2 scopes is that I find it controversial for c5’s aperture over many forums. Some said it’s perfect for planets and capable of some popular DSo while some said you could barely see DSo with it.

the thing that z61 attracts me is it’s light gathering power, I could do some observation or photography even though it might be to wide for details.

[Cosmic Geoff]

I have seen galaxies with my 127mm Mak (~ same aperture as a C5.) But if you live in an area with light pollution, you will not see many.

I would not call the C5 'perfect' for planets.  For its aperture, it is well suited for visual and imaging on planets.  But a larger aperture SCT (8", 9.25" etc) would be better...  You will also need a dedicated planetary camera and maybe an ADC (atmospheric dispersion corrector) which could cost you several hundred pounds extra.  I won't say that you cannot image DSOs with it, but particularly with light polluted skies it could be a challenge. (and you would need a solid equatorial mount and maybe guiding).
It would be wise to look into whether you can do deep sky imaging effectively in your skies with the z61.  For visual its use would be limited though you would get some nice views of star clusters.

[TerryMcK]

If you do want to do deep sky imaging the William Optics ZS61 or ZS73 are great. But you do need a good mount, a computer, a decent camera, a field flattener and if, as Geoff says, you have light polluted skies which a lot of people do then a filter of some kind is mandatory. Also I agree with the ripping up £50 notes analogy as astrophotography can get expensive as well as addictive. 

The zs61, zs73 or similar will do deep sky imaging very well and you can also get views of the moon but not highly detailed. Planets are a different animal and different methods of capture and can be equally rewarding. Unfortunately there isn't a scope that can do both unless you go down the very expensive route where you have a camera on the front to do wide field, swapping out mirrors and optics to put the camera on the rear which makes the scope into a long focal length scope. They do exist but are not really for beginners.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by TerryMcK

[Bc0428]

10 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

I have seen galaxies with my 127mm Mak (~ same aperture as a C5.) But if you live in an area with light pollution, you will not see many.

I would not call the C5 'perfect' for planets.  For its aperture, it is well suited for visual and imaging on planets.  But a larger aperture SCT (8", 9.25" etc) would be better...  You will also need a dedicated planetary camera and maybe an ADC (atmospheric dispersion corrector) which could cost you several hundred pounds extra.  I won't say that you cannot image DSOs with it, but particularly with light polluted skies it could be a challenge. (and you would need a solid equatorial mount and maybe guiding).
It would be wise to look into whether you can do deep sky imaging effectively in your skies with the z61.  For visual its use would be limited though you would get some nice views of star clusters.

Thanks a lot!!

i ordered an astronomik cls filter, do you think it works fine with a c5? Perhaps I could still photograph some of the bright DSo?

[Bc0428]

2 minutes ago, TerryMcK said:

If you do want to do deep sky imaging the William Optics ZS61 or ZS73 are great. But you do need a good mount, a computer, a decent camera, a field flattener and if, as Geoff says, you have light polluted skies which a lot of people do then a filter of some kind is mandatory. Also I agree with the ripping up £50 notes analogy as astrophotography can get expensive as well as addictive. 

The zs61, zs73 or similar will do deep sky imaging very well and you can also get views of the moon but not highly detailed. Planets are a different animal and different methods of capture and can be equally rewarding. Unfortunately there isn't a scope that can do both unless you go down the very expensive route where you have a camera on the front to do wide field and swap out mirrors and stuff to put the camera on the rear to make the scope into a long focal length scope. They do exist but are not really for beginners.

 

Thanks man... I think I got my answer

perhaps upgrade all those equipments when I tried the c5 for planetary, there are much to invest for DSo...

[Carbon Brush]

A couple more things to think about.

The lunar disc is about 1/2 degree, Or 30 arc minutes.
Jupiter is about 30 arc seconds - 1/60 the size of a full moon.
Mars is smaller.
OK these numbers vary depending on the positions relative to earth. But they are near enough.
You can see that you need a very narrow field of view to get (say) Jupiter covering a good number of pixels on your camera.
This is where a long focal length scope comes into play.

Now consider the Andromeda galaxy. A BIG deep sky object.
Much bigger than a full moon. But a definite faint object whose size depends on how good your skies are.
It is observable by eye from a dark site. But most people in the UK have probably never seen it.
In moderate pollution you will pick it up using binoculars - that are far too low magnification to show Jupiter as a disc.

What I'm getting at is there is no 'one size fits all' astrophotography package.

How about this. I assume you already own a DSLR, and a lens or two.
Buy an equatorial mount. EQ5 or HEQ5 size with motor drive, or full goto.
Sit the DSLR on top and take 30 second exposures of stars.
Look at what you get and work from there.

You immediately have some enjoyable wide sky views.
Different lenses get you different size images.

This gets you started. The mount is going to be good for many scope types (visual or photo) and should serve you well.
This size of mount is a 'keeper' if you stay in the hobby. But is very saleable should you leave.

 

At some point you will want more. You may want an 'astro modded' DSLR to see more long wavelengths.
You may want to use other filters to enhance certain objects.
You may want to fit a scope instead of the DSLR lens.
You may want a separate imaging camera.

The important thing is that you have got started for the cost of a mount only.
Anything you spend afterwards is your choice.

Keep asking the questions,

David.

 

 

[Bc0428]

17 minutes ago, Carbon Brush said:

A couple more things to think about.

The lunar disc is about 1/2 degree, Or 30 arc minutes.
Jupiter is about 30 arc seconds - 1/60 the size of a full moon.
Mars is smaller.
OK these numbers vary depending on the positions relative to earth. But they are near enough.
You can see that you need a very narrow field of view to get (say) Jupiter covering a good number of pixels on your camera.
This is where a long focal length scope comes into play.

Now consider the Andromeda galaxy. A BIG deep sky object.
Much bigger than a full moon. But a definite faint object whose size depends on how good your skies are.
It is observable by eye from a dark site. But most people in the UK have probably never seen it.
In moderate pollution you will pick it up using binoculars - that are far too low magnification to show Jupiter as a disc.

What I'm getting at is there is no 'one size fits all' astrophotography package.

How about this. I assume you already own a DSLR, and a lens or two.
Buy an equatorial mount. EQ5 or HEQ5 size with motor drive, or full goto.
Sit the DSLR on top and take 30 second exposures of stars.
Look at what you get and work from there.

You immediately have some enjoyable wide sky views.
Different lenses get you different size images.

This gets you started. The mount is going to be good for many scope types (visual or photo) and should serve you well.
This size of mount is a 'keeper' if you stay in the hobby. But is very saleable should you leave.

 

At some point you will want more. You may want an 'astro modded' DSLR to see more long wavelengths.
You may want to use other filters to enhance certain objects.
You may want to fit a scope instead of the DSLR lens.
You may want a separate imaging camera.

The important thing is that you have got started for the cost of a mount only.
Anything you spend afterwards is your choice.

Keep asking the questions,

David.

 

 

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it.

i hope I’m not being foolish, as I think the exact opposite way....

I am thinking to buy the mount afterwards instead, I’m living in Hong Kong, notorious for its light pollution. It’s virtually impossible to capture a Milky Way, not to even mention DSo...

so the most accessible objects should be planets, which I suppose it does not require a good mount to photograph?

secondly is the budget. I understand the importance of a mount, which is even superior than a telescope. But with my budget, i could only buy some entry level which I was told that it takes you more time to set it up than shooting... 

so I was planning to buy a good mount when I’m sure I’m serious with this hobby, if not, I could still use the scope for other spotting 

does this make sense or am I being foolish?

[Carbon Brush]

You will know from your daytime photography that you can use a camera handheld in daylight.
But as the light fades, or you use a long lens, a monopod, then tripod become essential.
You will also know about using cable release or delayed shutter in these circumstances.

Taking fraction of second exposures for moon views means you need a steady tripod.
So while you can get some decent results with a good quality fixed tripod, it will show its restrictions.

A half degree shift in camera angle due to balance changes when moving the camera to photograph a landscape has no effect on the image.
In astro terms, half a degree is one side of the moon to the other.

If you own a good photo tripod, put the longest lens you have on the camera and see what you can do.

HTH, David.
 

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

5 minutes ago, Bc0428 said:

if not, I could still use the scope for other spotting 

does this make sense or am I being foolish?

Which scope? It would make sense to buy the C5. It is available (here) packaged with several different GoTo mounts of varying degrees of stability. Or you could buy the C5 OTA only + a heavy duty mount also suited to future use on deep space astrophotography.

With (for example) the C5 SE package, which has an alt-azimuth GoTo mount, you could do visual observing of objects less affected by light pollution, and also have a go at planetary imaging.  Alt-azimuth GoTo mounts are less of a bother to set up and use for everything other than long exposure deep space imaging (which they won't do).

CLS filter - note that if your local light pollution is caused by white LED lighting, no filter will block it, as these lights have a continuous spectrum. Light pollution filters only worked with the older sodium or mercury lights.

[TerryMcK]

5 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

caused by white LED lighting, no filter will block it

IDAS D2 will.

[Bc0428]

10 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

Which scope? It would make sense to buy the C5. It is available (here) packaged with several different GoTo mounts of varying degrees of stability. Or you could buy the C5 OTA only + a heavy duty mount also suited to future use on deep space astrophotography.

With (for example) the C5 SE package, which has an alt-azimuth GoTo mount, you could do visual observing of objects less affected by light pollution, and also have a go at planetary imaging.  Alt-azimuth GoTo mounts are less of a bother to set up and use for everything other than long exposure deep space imaging (which they won't do).

CLS filter - note that if your local light pollution is caused by white LED lighting, no filter will block it, as these lights have a continuous spectrum. Light pollution filters only worked with the older sodium or mercury lights.

I considered the c5 se package before. However as my ultimate target is to photograph Dso, isn’t better to have an eq Mount and telescope separately? I just don’t like to buy the mount together which might not be satisfying after I get familiar with

[happy-kat]

I think I'd look at compromising, as an idea

Az-gti with 127mm mak

Use in altaz for visual and imaging planets.

Take mak 127mm off and replace with camera and camera lenses and with the free firmware upgrade use for imaging in EQ mode. Note this update does alter the telescope mount position so will need to mount the finder scope differently.

The mount can be guided as well.

Do if decide to purchase get from reputable dealer in case your one does not operate correctly.

But

Can you make out key stars in your skies, if not alignment could be tricky for goto to work.

A budget would help with suggestions

Edited May 20, 2020 by happy-kat

[Bc0428]

26 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

I think I'd look at compromising, as an idea

Az-gti with 127mm mak

Use in altaz for visual and imaging planets.

Take mak 127mm off and replace with camera and camera lenses and with the free firmware upgrade use for imaging in EQ mode. Note this update does alter the telescope mount position so will need to mount the finder scope differently.

The mount can be guided as well.

Do if decide to purchase get from reputable dealer in case your one does not operate correctly.

But

Can you make out key stars in your skies, if not alignment could be tricky for goto to work.

A budget would help with suggestions

Wow that saves a lot of money!

But most low cost mount is not rigid and will be shaky for DSo photography, is this the case for Az gti? Is it a good mount in general? Thanks!

[happy-kat]

There are posts on the mount on here and without a budget it was a guess idea. Sturdy tripod legs help there.

The most suggested mount is the HEQ5 for astrophotography.

[Cosmic Geoff]

6 minutes ago, Bc0428 said:

But most low cost mount is not rigid and will be shaky for DSo photography, is this the case for Az gti? Is it a good mount in general? Thanks!

I am getting the impression that what you really want to do is DSO photography, and that visual observing and planetary imaging are optional extras.  I have not seen an AZ GTI mount.  It seems to be popular, and can be used as outlined above but will not be a full substitute for a heavy duty imaging mount like a HEQ5. 

As for the filters, I looked up the IDAS D2, which according to the published info offers some relief from LED pollution. But it is expensive, and not a cure-all.  Before committing to spending a lot of money, you should confirm that DSO imaging will be worthwhile from your location.  A 60mm refractor will be underwhelming if only usable as a visual scope at your location.  You should obtain and read the book "Making Every Photon Count" which imagers recomment to all imaging newbies.  It might save you from spending money on unsuitable kit.