Two eyepieces for DSO that will best present the details of the DSO structure watched without cutting them out and for catching weak objects?

[Setaarius]

Hello.

Sorry for the title too long, but it was supposed to highlight the problem as well as possible

I am thinking about eyepieces for dob f /4.5 - 4.8 that will best present the details of the DSO structure watched without cutting them out and for catching weak objects. So far I have had or watched through the following eyepieces, on different dob (about a dozen different dob from 5 to 20 inches, but not on every one I have tried every eyepiece):
1. I had ES 82 degrees 4.7; mm; 6.7mm; 8.8mm; 11mm; 14mm
2. I watched through ES 100 degrees 9mm; 14mm; 20mm, ES 30mm 82 degrees, ES 24mm 68 degrees
3. I had a LVW 8mm; 13mm; 22mm
4. I had a Nagler 9mm; 13mm
5. I watched through 7mm through Nagler; 20mm; 31mm
6. I had a Pentax XW 7mm
7. I had 23mm Luminos

General impressions are:
ES – flat, fuzzy stars, yellowish image, bright background, different sharpness in the center and on 20-30% of edges, clipping details and causing uniformity of viewed images, blurring details of structures and weaker faint stars in relation to the better eyepieces I used. I even prefer the 23mm Luminos than the 100 degrees 20mm ES.

LVW - quite a dark image in small dob, but good point stars, a sterile image, I had them a long time ago so I remember it, but I compared them with ES 82 degrees and ES immediately rejected me with flat, fuzzy stars and yellowish image and a light background.

Nagler - very good, point stars, a bit less sterile image than in the Pentax XW, Pentax XW 7mm I think it gave subtly clearer details of the structure in relation to the Nagler 7mm.

Pentax XW - also excellent point stars, the most appealing to me was the way the image was presented, the cleanest and most sterile image and probably the best black background.

I currently have a 12 inch f / 5 dob, but in the future I plan 14 f / 4.8 or maybe 16 f / 4.5.
I am looking for two DSO eyepieces.
1. Eyepiece in the range of 8-10mm
2. Eyepiece in the range of 12-14mm
The most important thing for me is that they don't cut off details in DSO objects and are as neutral as possible in the presentation of the image.
I take into account:
1. Delos 10mm and 14mm
2. Pentax XW 10mm and maybe 14mm to check if FC will bother me and its scale
3. Delite 9mm and 13mm
4. Morpheus 9mm and 14mm
5. Something else...

The combination of Pentax XW 10mm and Delos 14mm seems to me the best, but maybe Delite and Morpheus are equally good and do not cut the details, but cheaper and I could buy 3 pieces instead of 2 pieces. I have been reading for many days and it's hard to decide. Of course, it would be best to compare them all at the same time and conditions in person, but unfortunately this is impossible for me.
What experience do you have in comparing the presentation of details of DSO object structures by the above eyepieces, and especially I care about comparisons on specific DSO objects ...

 

Clear skies,

Sebastian

[John]

When you say cutting out DSO detail do you mean in terms of reduced light transmission or in terms of not having a wide enough view ?

Personally I use Ethos eyepieces myself with my 12 inch F/5.3 but it sounds like you are not so keen on those ?

 

[Setaarius]

4 minutes ago, John said:

When you say cutting out DSO detail do you mean in terms of reduced light transmission or in terms of not having a wide enough view ?

Personally I use Ethos eyepieces myself with my 12 inch F/5.3 but it sounds like you are not so keen on those ?

 

I mean some eyepieces can cut weaker structures in DSO and the object becomes flat, homogeneous, and some eyepieces cut out weak objects completely and then in one eyepiece it is visible, in the other one not or in one directly, and in the other with averted vision.

I have never had ethos or looked through them, unfortunately not my budget...

Edited April 26, 2020 by Setaarius

[John]

1 minute ago, Setaarius said:

I mean some eyepieces can cut weaker structures in DSO and the object becomes flat, homogeneous, and some eyepieces cut out weak objects completely and then in one eyepiece it is visible, in the other one not or in one directly, and in the other with averted vision.

That sounds like you want the highest light transmission then ?

 

[Mark at Beaufort]

I have used mostly Ethos EPs for viewing DSOs over the years. However, for several reasons I sold my collection of Ethos EPs and bought ES82 to replace them. I realised that this was a mistake so I bought a 20mm Myriad, 13mm Ethos and 9mm Myriad to replace them. I don't think Myriad are still available but Lunt seems close in design.

As John stated it seems that you require the highest light transmission so perhaps you should try the 10mm Baader Classic Ortho which many have stated its quality viewing DSOs.

Because my 12" Dob is totally manual I don't fancy a 50 degree FOV EP trying to locate faint DSOs but you might be okay with this.

I can't express an opinion on the Pentax, Morpheus or the Delite because I have never owned one but I am sure other members have and will respond to you. If I was starting out now with a budget that could not buy the Ethos range then I would certainly try the Lunt and the Morpheus range.

[Setaarius]

28 minutes ago, John said:

That sounds like you want the highest light transmission then ?

 

Yes, but the contrast and background is important for me too.

[John]

Contrast and background darkness can be improved by applying magnification so hyper wide eyepieces allow that while retaining wide true fields.

In terms of pure light transmission, reports from folks who use really big aperture scopes under really dark skies have shown that the very best are the Zeiss ZAO orthos followed by the (as Mark says) Baader Classic Ortho 10mm (the 18mm is pretty good as well) then followed by Delos, XW's Ethos etc, etc. The Morpheus is probably a good choice as well but I have not used those personally.

Here is the website that covers the reports I am referring to:

http://www.faintfuzzies.com/

Well worth browsing though their reports.

 

[Timebandit]

 

 

Hello. The Pentax 10XW is a great eyepiece,  high light transmission , sharp as a tak image also. This eyepiece is like a quality Ortho , but much better fov and great eye relief. The Pentax 10 XW is all the benefits of an Ortho , but without the drawbacks. 

Hope this helps

 

[Louis D]

For widefields, I would recommend 10mm and below Pentax XW and the discontinued XL.  The XWs give slightly darker backgrounds, while the XLs are easier to hold the view and are better corrected to the edge.

I would also recommend most of the Delos.  The perform equally as well as the XW and are much better at 12mm to 17.3mm.

The only ES I would recommend would be the 12mm and 17mm ES-92s that view just like the Delos, only with a wider field of view.  They are massive, weighty, and 2"-only.

The Panoptics are sharp and provide a dark background, though they have a bit of field curvature.

The Delites are supposed to be a step up in sharpness and contrast from the Delos, though a notch below the best narrower field planetary eyepieces.

The Morpheus are a slight step behind the XW/Delos/Delite.  I would avoid the 14mm because it has slight curvature and astigmatism at the edge.  The 14mm Delos would be the better choice.

The Nikon NAV-SW have fewer reports, but some folks swear by them.  The NAV-HW are regarded as slightly better than the Ethos, but just a notch behind the 12.5mm Docter.

The 12.5mm Docter is considered phenomenal in most respects, but it only comes in one focal length.

The 30mm APM UFF is an excellent choice at that focal length.

At high powers, the Tak TOEs and Vixen HRs are considered the best that are currently available.

[jetstream]

11 hours ago, Setaarius said:

I currently have a 12 inch f / 5 dob, but in the future I plan 14 f / 4.8 or maybe 16 f / 4.5.

To have the "cleanest" and possibly highest "contrast" views a Paracorr II could benefit you. They bring out the best in Televue eyepieces (and others) at the f ratios you list.

My 10mm Delos is close to my 10mm BCO, but in terms of transmission the Baader is a little bit better, only noticeable on the darkest and clearest nights.

An example of this can be found on the central star in M57, which likes high transmission eyepieces and good seeing. My Zeiss zoom, while excellent falls behind the Delos/10BCO and Docter UWA on this object. My cheap Circle T orthos do well on it.

Another sensitive object is Hickson 55 which loves the 10mm BCO/Baader VIP and also the Docter, Delos and other orthos.

The absolute best view of the trapezium in M42 is with the 17.3mm Delos, very high transmission and super clean stars.

Discounting the ZAOII, the best in terms of transmission and contrast are the Delos in the widefields according to many. It takes a good ortho to beat them. I hear good things about Morpheus and when I can get one I'll test it against some of the mentioned eyepieces. For serious DSO work I humbly suggest avoiding 100 deg EPs as well as 82 deg EPs.

The 10mm Baader Classic ortho is the cheapest best way to get a super high transmission/contrast eyepiece. Note that the design is Zeiss, but not a true Abbe- it has a larger field and with a bit more distortion than Abbes. It has better transmission than my 12.5mm Tak ortho.

Edited April 27, 2020 by jetstream

[Setaarius]

Thank you for all your answers.  Gave me a sort of compendium.

[Timebandit]

 

 

Another eyepiece I have used in my 14" Dob with great success is the Vixen LVW. The 13mm LVW has eye relief of around 20mm and not an overbearing Fov of 65d .The 13mm producing a great contrast between the dark Sky's and points of light. The stars are pinpoint in appearance. A great mid range focal ratio eyepiece. Such a shame Vixen I understand no longer produce these LVW, but they do come up occasionally used.