Rowan AZ100 Mount Owners Thread

[Rixavatar]

21 hours ago, Manoj77 said:

Interesting post. What changes did you make to the configuration that enabled you to reduce the damping time to one second?

The adjustments I described in my last post were a big part of it for me, but not necessarily the first things to try.  The first things to look at and try first in my opinion would be:

1.) Your tripod.  Rowan confirmed, for instance, that a Berlebach Uni was giving them about 2 seconds of damping time, whereas a Planet reduced that to 1

2.) Tripod levers and bolts are tight

3.) Tripod surface (grass is better than concrete which is better than a wood deck, etc)

4.) Balance the OTA on the Alt axis (this one will always cause wiggles for me as it will cause a stutter at the slow motion controls if too far out of balance)

5.) Backlash adjustment (as per the manual) and use of the dampener knobs

6.) Sliding the  counterweights inward to half way along the bar or closer (but not at the sacrifice of becoming tippy!)

 

Rowan may suggest other things to check too, depending on any one person's unique use case, but these are the things that made a difference for me.  It was everything in aggregate that got me down to 1 second of damping time with mt 35lbs of Meade SCT, but the weight and moment arm of other scopes like refractors will likely change things.  Everyone's situation can be different, but those items alone reduced my "wiggles" damping time from 3 seconds to 2.  The thrust bearing adjustment took me the rest of the way to 1 second.

I suppose the steps above apply to any mount/scope conbination.

~Rix

Edited October 23, 2022 by Rixavatar
Typo

[Manoj77]

I have had the amount now for about a month and I really like it. However I’m still not clear on to what degree I should use the damping knobs compared  to the amount of tension I put on the clutch compared to how I’ve got the worm gear set with the grub screws.  Seems there are three factors here all which come into play, and I’m not sure what the relationship is exactly between the three components and how they should all be set relative to each other.  If anyone can help me by providing some clarity on this, I’d appreciate it.

[Rixavatar]

30 minutes ago, Manoj77 said:

I have had the amount now for about a month and I really like it. However I’m still not clear on to what degree I should use the damping knobs compared  to the amount of tension I put on the clutch compared to how I’ve got the worm gear set with the grub screws.  Seems there are three factors here all which come into play, and I’m not sure what the relationship is exactly between the three components and how they should all be set relative to each other.  If anyone can help me by providing some clarity on this, I’d appreciate it.

Derek may have a better way of explaining, but I'll give it a go...

Think of the relationship between the rotating part of the axis and the stationary mount body.  If you place a piece of blue painters tape at the gap between those two parts and draw a reference line on two pieces of tape across that gap, you will see that the "backlash" is the free movement in either direction before the teeth of the worm gear contact the ring gear.  This back and forth "free play" is the backlash and is seen at the worm gear's mesh and at the free movement of the center shaft rotation.  With the instructions, you are minimizing this without placing constant pressure of the worm gear against the ring gear, which causes binding and could eventually cause gear damage, or overload a goto motor.  You can never really eliminate backlash, so its all about minimizing it (the degree of precision needed to eliminate it would be cost prohibitive, I suspect).

So, imagine that the backlash gives you 1mm of free "float" the axis can move in either direction before the gear teeth of the worm contacts either side of the mating ring gear teeth.  The dampener applies pressure to the center shaft (the shaft the entire Alt or Az axis rotates on) so that this movement isn't allowed to simply "flop" around, but is dampened under the tension of the dampener pressing against the shaft.  This smoothens out the motion felt the knob and prevents unwanted movement within that 1mm of backlash (the 1mm is purely for illustration purposes.  You want to use Rowan's instructions for backlash setting as per the manual).

Hopefully that makes sense!  

~Rix

Derek is free to smack me if I got any of that wrong!

Edited October 23, 2022 by Rixavatar

[Stephenstargazer]

3 hours ago, swsantos said:

have attached a picture of my Nova Hitch

Is that adjustable when changining eye pieces? Or say putting on a binoviewer?

[swsantos]

1 hour ago, Stephenstargazer said:

Is that adjustable when changining eye pieces? Or say putting on a binoviewer?

It is potentially adjustable on the fly but it it wouldn't be easy to do so with the OTA attached an not necessary anyway because the Nova Hitch is uniquely able to deal with the imbalance created by varying eyepiece weights and binoviewers. I have that axis balance set for the average weight of my eyepieces, I used a 13mm Ethos for that purpose, and it plays nicely with all eyepiece changes as well as my binoviewer. As a potential add-on to the AZ100 I will bet that Rowan can cook up something that is even more adjustable on the fly for those that want to do so.

Edited October 23, 2022 by swsantos

[bsdsgl84]

12 hours ago, Dek Rowan Astro said:

Hi bsd,

It's on the drawing board at the moment, if you have any particular requirements "speak now or forever hold your peace" 😉 

ATB

Derek.

Hello Derek,

Pragmatically, I guess what I have in mind is something along the lines of the HH's Balance Trimmer, which (due it its clever angle set) in itself isn't as pronounced.

If attachable to the lower base objective end of the saddle, so that it can fold in (towards the Alt center axis) when not needed and out when it is would be great, but really might be overkill.., 

Hope I explained that okay., 

Thanks, otherwise.., 

bsdsgl84

[swsantos]

2 hours ago, bsdsgl84 said:

Hello Derek,

Pragmatically, I guess what I have in mind is something along the lines of the HH's Balance Trimmer, which (due it its clever angle set) in itself isn't as pronounced.

If attachable to the lower base objective end of the saddle, so that it can fold in (towards the Alt center axis) when not needed and out when it is would be great, but really might be overkill.., 

Hope I explained that okay., 

Thanks, otherwise.., 

bsdsgl84

The genius of Charles Riddel lives on and inspires. His designs centered around balance via built in 2 axis balancing as well as the above mentioned balance trimmer and they worked so well together.

Edited October 24, 2022 by swsantos

[Dek Rowan Astro]

15 hours ago, Rixavatar said:

Derek may have a better way of explaining, but I'll give it a go...

Think of the relationship between the rotating part of the axis and the stationary mount body.  If you place a piece of blue painters tape at the gap between those two parts and draw a reference line on two pieces of tape across that gap, you will see that the "backlash" is the free movement in either direction before the teeth of the worm gear contact the ring gear.  This back and forth "free play" is the backlash and is seen at the worm gear's mesh and at the free movement of the center shaft rotation.  With the instructions, you are minimizing this without placing constant pressure of the worm gear against the ring gear, which causes binding and could eventually cause gear damage, or overload a goto motor.  You can never really eliminate backlash, so its all about minimizing it (the degree of precision needed to eliminate it would be cost prohibitive, I suspect).

So, imagine that the backlash gives you 1mm of free "float" the axis can move in either direction before the gear teeth of the worm contacts either side of the mating ring gear teeth.  The dampener applies pressure to the center shaft (the shaft the entire Alt or Az axis rotates on) so that this movement isn't allowed to simply "flop" around, but is dampened under the tension of the dampener pressing against the shaft.  This smoothens out the motion felt the knob and prevents unwanted movement within that 1mm of backlash (the 1mm is purely for illustration purposes.  You want to use Rowan's instructions for backlash setting as per the manual).

Hopefully that makes sense!  

~Rix

Derek is free to smack me if I got any of that wrong!

the way I would explain the dampers is:-

 

Imagine the mount only had worm wheel slow motion, but no clutch so the mount could only be moved using the slow motion controls.

As RIX said, the dampers apply some friction to the axis rotation which damps out the backlash, (also helps with stick slip).

 

But the mount also has clutches to allow manual rotation of the axis by allowing  'disconnection' of the slow motion worm wheel.

 

Now, there are two positions in the drive train where the dampers could go, a) on the main shaft side of the clutch or b) the worm wheel side of the clutch.

AZ100 has the dampers on the worm wheel side of the clutch so when moving manually they have no effect on the axis 'tension' set by the clutch, therefor the dampers only affect the slow motion 'feel'.

You can easily test this. With the both the dampers and the axis clutch loose, the axis rotates very freely. Now tighten the dampers, the axis still rotates freely.

Now repeat, but this time rotating the slow motion controls. With the clutch and dampers loose, rotate the slow mo handle = free movement. With the dampers tight, the slow motion will have a slightly increased drag which damps backlash, vibration, stick slip etc from the motion of the worm wheel

 

Clutches only control the 'freeness' of the manual push to.

Dampers only affect the worm wheel / slow motion controls.

 

ATB

Derek

[Rixavatar]

8 hours ago, Dek Rowan Astro said:

the way I would explain the dampers is:-

 

Imagine the mount only had worm wheel slow motion, but no clutch so the mount could only be moved using the slow motion controls.

As RIX said, the dampers apply some friction to the axis rotation which damps out the backlash, (also helps with stick slip).

 

But the mount also has clutches to allow manual rotation of the axis by allowing  'disconnection' of the slow motion worm wheel.

 

Now, there are two positions in the drive train where the dampers could go, a) on the main shaft side of the clutch or b) the worm wheel side of the clutch.

AZ100 has the dampers on the worm wheel side of the clutch so when moving manually they have no effect on the axis 'tension' set by the clutch, therefor the dampers only affect the slow motion 'feel'.

You can easily test this. With the both the dampers and the axis clutch loose, the axis rotates very freely. Now tighten the dampers, the axis still rotates freely.

Now repeat, but this time rotating the slow motion controls. With the clutch and dampers loose, rotate the slow mo handle = free movement. With the dampers tight, the slow motion will have a slightly increased drag which damps backlash, vibration, stick slip etc from the motion of the worm wheel

 

Clutches only control the 'freeness' of the manual push to.

Dampers only affect the worm wheel / slow motion controls.

 

ATB

Derek

Yep, Derek explained it better!  One thing to also note to remember is that there are TWO dampener knobs for each axis, one opposing the other, that need to be adjusted evenly and it doesn't take much tightening.  I do mine with just the tips of my thumb and forefinger for each and its plenty.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Rixavatar

[Manoj77]

6 minutes ago, Rixavatar said:

Yep, Derek explained it better!  One thing to also note to remember is that there are TWO dampener knobs for each axis, one opposing the other, that need to be adjusted evenly and it doesn't take much tightening.  I do mine with just the tips of my thumb and forefinger for each and its plenty.

Thank you!. All makes sense to me now. Thank you for your time.

[Saganite]

I took my AZ100 to Rowan Engineering yesterday as planned and had the motors fitted, while I enjoyed chatting with Derek, Dave, and James with refreshments supplied.  Living as close to them as I do, it is an easy trip and worthwhile, they are such great guys.

I managed to set up for about 40 minutes of observing, that evening, before the clouds rolled in, and it was worth every moment. I pointed the scope roughly South and got the telescope roughly level, flicked the on switch and settled down to observe Jupiter, the GRS and shadow transit to be exact. This was a big deal for me because I have been without tracking for two long years and at high mags, as we all know , it is a right pain without it.  I was using 171 X and it held the planet dead central during most of that time, absolutely superb, and totally silent in operation. 

The set up as shown is rock steady on my pier, and will soon have an observatory  around it all , at which point I will connect the Nexus DSC, and conduct a proper  star align !

Edited October 28, 2022 by Saganite

[lifeonmars]

1 hour ago, Saganite said:

I took my AZ100 to Rowan Engineering yesterday as planned and had the motors fitted, while I enjoyed chatting with Derek, Dave, and James with refreshments supplied.  Living as close to them as I do, it is an easy trip and worthwhile, they are such great guys.

I managed to set up for about 40 minutes of observing, that evening, before the clouds rolled in, and it was worth every moment. I pointed the scope roughly South and got the telescope roughly level, flicked the on switch and settled down to observe Jupiter, the GRS and shadow transit to be exact. This was a big deal for me because I have been without tracking for two long years and at high mags, as we all know , it is a right pain without it.  I was using 171 X and it held the planet dead central during most of that time, absolutely superb, and totally silent in operation. 

The set up as shown is rock steady on my pier, and will soon have an observatory  around it all , at which point I will connect the Nexus DSC, and conduct a proper  star align !

Nice report Steve,good to hear it works well.Have you tried the Rowan AZ100  Planaterium App out by any chance if so what's the verdict.

Nice set up by the way.

Cheers Frank

 

[Telescope40]

Steve. Great news. Hoping I can go down this route too in due course.   That set up looks the business, fella. 

John 

[Stephenstargazer]

Tell us more about the Nexus DSC connection. Is it to be by the RS 232 ports ?  @Dek Rowan Astro Derek told me at IAS that Serge is adding new software and that would make such a neat self contained package. DSC alignment is quick and easy.  Tracking would be perfect with Scope Lock using the encoders, if I understand that function?

Edited October 28, 2022 by Stephenstargazer

[Saganite]

3 hours ago, lifeonmars said:

Nice report Steve,good to hear it works well.Have you tried the Rowan AZ100  Planaterium App out by any chance if so what's the verdict.

Nice set up by the way.

Cheers Frank

 

Cheers Frank.

I have not attempted anything yet, just loving the ability to track rather than chase targets.  

[Saganite]

1 hour ago, Stephenstargazer said:

Tell us more about the Nexus DSC connection. Is it to be by the RS 232 ports ?  @Dek Rowan Astro Derek told me at IAS that Serge is adding new software and that would make such a neat self contained package. DSC alignment is quick and easy.  Tracking would be perfect with Scope Lock using the encoders, if I understand that function?

The Nexus connection will be via the RS232 port I know that much,  and  you are correct that Serge will soon be making new software available, but for now that is all I know.  

[Space Hopper]

@Saganite sweet setup Steve. I've got to get myself one of those mounts......

I have an EMS buddy who like you has ordered his motors, and will be picking them up very soon.

So hopefully i'll get to see it in action first hand.

[Saganite]

11 hours ago, Telescope40 said:

Steve. Great news. Hoping I can go down this route too in due course.   That set up looks the business, fella. 

John 

Thanks John, 

You will never need another mount that is for sure, so I will keep an eye out for when you do....

Have you landed back on Earth yet since getting that gorgeous FS 128 ?........

Steve

[Telescope40]

Steve. Had first light last nite. Bit jaw dropping on Jupiter and Saturn. I’ve updated my original thread. 
Happy doesn’t quite do it justice. 👍👍

John 
 

[Saganite]

1 hour ago, Telescope40 said:

Steve. Had first light last nite. Bit jaw dropping on Jupiter and Saturn. I’ve updated my original thread. 
Happy doesn’t quite do it justice. 👍👍

John 
 

[Alan White]

@Saganite that is sweet, nice tracking isn’t it.

 

[Saganite]

5 minutes ago, Alan White said:

@Saganite that is sweet, nice tracking isn’t it.

 

Hi Al,

Yes, absolutely superb !

cheers

Steve

[Saganite]

20 hours ago, Space Hopper said:

@Saganite sweet setup Steve. I've got to get myself one of those mounts......

I have an EMS buddy who like you has ordered his motors, and will be picking them up very soon.

So hopefully i'll get to see it in action first hand.

Thanks Rob.

It is indeed a great set up and certainly I will want for nothing else !

Beware !  you will love it !!......

[Dek Rowan Astro]

On 28/10/2022 at 22:18, Stephenstargazer said:

Tell us more about the Nexus DSC connection. Is it to be by the RS 232 ports ?  @Dek Rowan Astro Derek told me at IAS that Serge is adding new software and that would make such a neat self contained package. DSC alignment is quick and easy.  Tracking would be perfect with Scope Lock using the encoders, if I understand that function?

Hi Steve,

 

DSC connection to AZ100 is via the RS232 ports as this then leaves the wifi available to connect to Sky Safari etc.

ATB

Derek

[Telescope40]

On 28/10/2022 at 18:23, Saganite said:

I took my AZ100 to Rowan Engineering yesterday as planned and had the motors fitted, while I enjoyed chatting with Derek, Dave, and James with refreshments supplied.  Living as close to them as I do, it is an easy trip and worthwhile, they are such great guys.

I managed to set up for about 40 minutes of observing, that evening, before the clouds rolled in, and it was worth every moment. I pointed the scope roughly South and got the telescope roughly level, flicked the on switch and settled down to observe Jupiter, the GRS and shadow transit to be exact. This was a big deal for me because I have been without tracking for two long years and at high mags, as we all know , it is a right pain without it.  I was using 171 X and it held the planet dead central during most of that time, absolutely superb, and totally silent in operation. 

The set up as shown is rock steady on my pier, and will soon have an observatory  around it all , at which point I will connect the Nexus DSC, and conduct a proper  star align !

Hello Steve. Will be very interested in your findings.  Especially as to whether you still have to point the OTA vertically as part of the alignment process, as I do currently.  Not the easiest with no risers or pillar in place on my mount currently. Find that I still have to pick my spot so I don't snag anything on the tripod. 

 

Thx   John