After two sessions with stock 200P - eyepiece upgrade advice?

[Deisler]

Dear All,

I have had two sessions (3 hrs+ each) with my 200P (f/6, 1200mm length) since it arrived. Spent most time on moon and bright starts in major constellations. Very happy with 200P and 25mm EP (moon looks amazing with 25mm stock EP). But when I used 10mm EP, I found the quality is quite poor and the lack of details is disappointing, although I don't really know what benchmark looks like to be honest. 

 

My plan is to get at least 20-30 hours out of 200P with stock EPs first prior to any upgrade, so I am not in a hurry at the moment. But I hope to get an EP upgrade close to Christmas/New Year.

I spent my whole evening and went through 20-30+ threads in this forum about first EP upgrade. Some very useful advice given there but very confusing for me still.

Currently I find myself in between a few options:

 

My budget is around £200, and I hope that can help me get enough EP range to cover moon/planet and large-size DSO. I am willing to put more money in - but I don't like to get something that I know I will sell in a few months time.

 

1) First, I read about highly rated Tele Vue Powermate - 1.25'' 2.5x . £172 on FLO. I realised with 2.5x, I actually only gain 1 'new' EP which is 4mm. 

I like the possibility of using powermate for luna imaging (I have DSLR), but maybe it is not a good idea to buy it as my first EP upgrade as it offers so little? Same can be said for TV Barlow I guess?

 

2) Many here also recommended Baader Hyperion Zoom. Most people said it is ok with 200P, despite of fast f/6. But it is more for convenience as I understand - and ultimately I will have to replace it with good EP for visual? It is quite expensive, £239 (barlow incl.), so I am not sure if it is a good buy for me now?

Generally do people use Hyperion Zoom for a long time, or is it just a 'starting' kit that will soon be replaced?

 

3) The other option mentioned many times here was to get a mid-power EP, such as BST StarGuider 15mm or 18mm. It is reasonably priced, and if I can also get a TV Powermate, then it really provides me with a nice range of EP (with stock 25mm). With them, I feel the only thing missing is a wide field low-power EP, but I don't think I need that at the moment?

My concern about BST EP is - How much an upgrade it is from my stock EP? Is it just a 'one-step' upgrade, and eventually in a few months time I will want a better one. If so, I'd rather skip it and buy a decent mid-power EP, like the Explore Scientific 62 degree series?

 

At the moment, I am leaning towards either 2) Baader Zoom, or 3) a decent mid-power EP plus a TV PM.

Any advice you can give, I will really appreciate!

PS: I would be keen to hear if you have other options to recommend as my first EP upgrade too.

 

Thank you in advance.

Regards

Deisler

[Ruud]

Hi Deisler, it's personal, but I'd say

1) no PM. A decent Barlow is just as good as a PM.

2) no zoom. These zooms have very small fields of view at lower magnifications.

3) BST is okay. With a Barlow instead of a PM you might have enough money left for a 32mm GSO Plössl.

---

Above 3x magnification factor, a PM is a better choice than a Barlow. Otherwise I am fully content with my Barlows.

[Whistlin Bob]

Tricky because it's all about personal preference. 

I was warned off the zoom due to fov, but then I borrowed one and was completely converted. The convenience with them of being able to instantly slide up and down the magnification greatly increases my enjoyment.

I have a 30mm aero, a Baader zoom, a 7mm celestron Xcel and some WO bino viewers along with a couple of Barlow's. I'd say the zoom is in for about 60% of my viewing.

Good condition ones come up second hand quite frequently.

[John]

My regular eyepieces are Tele Vue and Pentax but I've owned and used a few BST Starguiders and I think they are really pretty good eyepieces for their cost (£50 new, £30 or so on the used market).

The BST's are a significant improvement over the stock eyepieces in my opinion. Going beyond them to, say, £100 - £200 apiece eyepieces and the peformance gains are much smaller.

Your £200 would get you 4 focal lengths in the BST Starguider range, or 3 plus a barlow lens. The Baader zoom is pretty good as well but the field of view at the 24mm focal length is limited so you would need something like a 30mm NPL plossl to get those wider / low power views and also something shorter such as a 6mm for the higher powers that the scope is capable of. Budget blown a bit I suspect !

The Powermates are superb but one swallows up most of your budget and Powermating the stock eyepieces is not going to turn them into great eyepieces I fear.

[mikeDnight]

I'd stick with your stock 25mm for now and buy a 17.5mm Baader Morpheus. It is a fantastic eyepiece and it barlows wonderfully, so you'll have a mid range wide field, and with a 2X Delux SW barlow, a good power for globular clusters etc. The Morpheus range of eyepieces are well worth considering as they deliver 70° Pentax XW sharpness without the troublesome kidney bean black out issue.  Although the Hyperion zoom is nice, I'd be more inclined to go for the standard Hyperion range. The 24mm is excellent and can match the performance of some of the very best at a much lower price. 

[vlaiv]

3 hours ago, Deisler said:

But when I used 10mm EP, I found the quality is quite poor and the lack of details is disappointing, although I don't really know what benchmark looks like to be honest. 

Ok, this is somewhat telling.

Although stock 10mm EP is not pinnacle of optical perfection it should not be that poor especially if you don't have comparison point.

Don't know how much observing you've done previously, but please make sure that you:

- know how to recognize poor seeing. 10mm EP in 8" F/6 is not going to give you too much magnification under most circumstances, but there are some nights that offer worse seeing than most nights and in those cases x120 power can be too much. Maybe it happened that you had two such poor seeing observing sessions.

- Make sure your scope is well collimated. If your collimation is off - there is no "quality" EP in the world that will make image look good.

I'm saying above just as a means to improve your observing and not to deter you from getting new eyepieces / other kit. Understanding seeing limitations and having properly collimated scope will help with both old and new EPs.

 

[Louis D]

First, I'd double check my collimation as @vlaiv suggests above just to be sure it's my eyepiece.  He's also got a point about seeing conditions.  If stars are twinkling due to atmospheric turbulence, anything above about 80x to 100x is going to be mush.  Usually, I wait a day after a strong front passes through for the best seeing conditions.

I've got some really cheap 9mm eyepieces (a Kellner and a Meade Plossl) as seen below in some images I took of and through them, and they produce remarkably good images on axis in my f/6 AT72ED refractor.  Even off axis, they're pretty good.  You can judge for yourself how much of an improvement you get by moving up to Vixen LV (SLV nowadays), Meade HD-60 (BST Starguider equivalent), Morpheus, or even Delos eyepieces.

If you go to this thread I started, you can check out a bunch of other eyepieces from my collection including the BST Starguiders and several zooms.

More expensive eyepieces buy you wider fields of view, better corrected imagery across those fields of view, and longer eye relief.  They also tend to have sharper and contrastier images due to better polish, coatings, and stray light control.

[Rob]

As others have mentioned here. Collimation is your stop!.. If you don't already have a collimating tool, get one. preferably this style as the longer style works well : https://www.firstlightoptics.com/other-collimation-tools/premium-cheshire-collimating-eyepiece.html 

Then look towards EP's.

Best Rob

[Deisler]

@vlaiv @Louis D @Rob  Thank you. I've done my collimation with Cheshire EP. Although I am sure my collimation is nowhere near perfect, it should be fine.

At next session, I will check and make sure the weather condition is fine and consistent so I can do more comparison. As far as I remember, at last two sessions, there was no cloud and I did make sure I avoided looking at the moon near my neighbour's roof. But I will report back.

Thank you for the advice. Really appreciate them.

[Deisler]

10 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

I'd stick with your stock 25mm for now and buy a 17.5mm Baader Morpheus. It is a fantastic eyepiece and it barlows wonderfully, so you'll have a mid range wide field, and with a 2X Delux SW barlow, a good power for globular clusters etc. The Morpheus range of eyepieces are well worth considering as they deliver 70° Pentax XW sharpness without the troublesome kidney bean black out issue.  Although the Hyperion zoom is nice, I'd be more inclined to go for the standard Hyperion range. The 24mm is excellent and can match the performance of some of the very best at a much lower price. 

Baader Morpheus seems to have very positive reviews! It is £189 a piece from FLO at the moment - a bit too expensive for me. But I will definitely keep an eye on them - they might be my ultimate goal (I dont think I will ever move up to those super expensive TV EPs). 

Cheers

[John]

With the F/6 focal ratio of the 200P dobsonian you don't really need Tele Vue quality to get great results. If you eventually move to something a little faster which typically you need to do to get larger aperture dobs / newtonians, the edge of field correction becomes more important. The Morphus reportedly is pretty good though, even in faster scopes. It was not around when I was building my eyepiece collection.

Scopes tend to come and go but a good eyepiece set can stay with you for life !

[Deisler]

11 hours ago, John said:

My regular eyepieces are Tele Vue and Pentax but I've owned and used a few BST Starguiders and I think they are really pretty good eyepieces for their cost (£50 new, £30 or so on the used market).

The BST's are a significant improvement over the stock eyepieces in my opinion. Going beyond them to, say, £100 - £200 apiece eyepieces and the peformance gains are much smaller.

Your £200 would get you 4 focal lengths in the BST Starguider range, or 3 plus a barlow lens. The Baader zoom is pretty good as well but the field of view at the 24mm focal length is limited so you would need something like a 30mm NPL plossl to get those wider / low power views and also something shorter such as a 6mm for the higher powers that the scope is capable of. Budget blown a bit I suspect !

The Powermates are superb but one swallows up most of your budget and Powermating the stock eyepieces is not going to turn them into great eyepieces I fear.

Thank you.

 

I have checked many threads here about TV Barlow vs TV Powermate. I understand the major differences, i.e. the eye relief. How much gain in visual I can expect between TV Barlow and PM?

Am I right to say Powermate is a better long-term buy as I will never need to replace it? If so, I'd rather buy the Powermate. 

[Deisler]

11 hours ago, Whistlin Bob said:

Tricky because it's all about personal preference. 

I was warned off the zoom due to fov, but then I borrowed one and was completely converted. The convenience with them of being able to instantly slide up and down the magnification greatly increases my enjoyment.

I have a 30mm aero, a Baader zoom, a 7mm celestron Xcel and some WO bino viewers along with a couple of Barlow's. I'd say the zoom is in for about 60% of my viewing.

Good condition ones come up second hand quite frequently.

Thank you. I think I will wait for 2-3 weeks to see if I can get a 2nd hand Baader Zoom.

 

If not, I will grab the 10% off deal from FLO on Tele Vue and go for their Barlow or PM with 1 or 2 BST.

[Raph-in-the-sky]

11 hours ago, Deisler said:

Dear All,

I have had two sessions (3 hrs+ each) with my 200P (f/6, 1200mm length) since it arrived. Spent most time on moon and bright starts in major constellations. Very happy with 200P and 25mm EP (moon looks amazing with 25mm stock EP). But when I used 10mm EP, I found the quality is quite poor and the lack of details is disappointing, although I don't really know what benchmark looks like to be honest. 

 

My plan is to get at least 20-30 hours out of 200P with stock EPs first prior to any upgrade, so I am not in a hurry at the moment. But I hope to get an EP upgrade close to Christmas/New Year.

I spent my whole evening and went through 20-30+ threads in this forum about first EP upgrade. Some very useful advice given there but very confusing for me still.

Currently I find myself in between a few options:

 

My budget is around £200, and I hope that can help me get enough EP range to cover moon/planet and large-size DSO. I am willing to put more money in - but I don't like to get something that I know I will sell in a few months time.

 

1) First, I read about highly rated Tele Vue Powermate - 1.25'' 2.5x . £172 on FLO. I realised with 2.5x, I actually only gain 1 'new' EP which is 4mm. 

I like the possibility of using powermate for luna imaging (I have DSLR), but maybe it is not a good idea to buy it as my first EP upgrade as it offers so little? Same can be said for TV Barlow I guess?

 

2) Many here also recommended Baader Hyperion Zoom. Most people said it is ok with 200P, despite of fast f/6. But it is more for convenience as I understand - and ultimately I will have to replace it with good EP for visual? It is quite expensive, £239 (barlow incl.), so I am not sure if it is a good buy for me now?

Generally do people use Hyperion Zoom for a long time, or is it just a 'starting' kit that will soon be replaced?

 

3) The other option mentioned many times here was to get a mid-power EP, such as BST StarGuider 15mm or 18mm. It is reasonably priced, and if I can also get a TV Powermate, then it really provides me with a nice range of EP (with stock 25mm). With them, I feel the only thing missing is a wide field low-power EP, but I don't think I need that at the moment?

My concern about BST EP is - How much an upgrade it is from my stock EP? Is it just a 'one-step' upgrade, and eventually in a few months time I will want a better one. If so, I'd rather skip it and buy a decent mid-power EP, like the Explore Scientific 62 degree series?

 

At the moment, I am leaning towards either 2) Baader Zoom, or 3) a decent mid-power EP plus a TV PM.

Any advice you can give, I will really appreciate!

PS: I would be keen to hear if you have other options to recommend as my first EP upgrade too.

 

Thank you in advance.

Regards

Deisler

I know its all relative and depends on one's taste but I will tell you what I would do if I were in your shoes (and I was not long ago).

So, for £200, I would get BST Starguiders 5mm and 15mm, a GSO/Revelation 32mm Plossl and instead of the Barlow I would get a decent UHC filter (Explore Scientific sells for £44 at FLO).

[John]

23 minutes ago, Deisler said:

Thank you.

 

I have checked many threads here about TV Barlow vs TV Powermate. I understand the major differences, i.e. the eye relief. How much gain in visual I can expect between TV Barlow and PM?

Am I right to say Powermate is a better long-term buy as I will never need to replace it? If so, I'd rather buy the Powermate. 

In pure optical terms the differences might be slight or non existent . Barlows can vignette the field of view of eyepieces with wide field stops and push the eye relief outwards a bit. Powermates and Telextenders don't have these effects. There are other telextender options which cost less than Tele Vue though. The Explore Scientific 2x Focal Extender is one that is very good.

 

 

[estwing]

35 minutes ago, Deisler said:

Am I right to say Powermate is a better long-term buy as I will never need to replace it? If so, I'd rather buy the Powermate. 

You don't need one ....listen to john and take his advice....or you'll end up like me!!!

[Rob Sellent]

27 minutes ago, John said:

Scopes tend to come and go but a good eyepiece set can stay with you for life !

This is worth repeating.

In the long term, it is probably cheaper to buy decent quality eyepieces - especially if you pick them up on the secondhand market - than simply going for some quick fix cheaper eyepieces that may eventually need upgrading and may inevitably lose a wack on the secondhand market. 

Premium eyepieces will fit a range of different scopes and focal ratios, will retain their market value better, will sell quickly if ever the need to move them on, and won't leave the observer with any nagging feeling of 'what if...'. 

It is rarely a bad move to buy premium, one just needs to slow down a little to save up for them and keep a careful eye on the secondhand market. I feel in the long run, it will save money, time, and doubt.

[vlaiv]

If you can't quite afford premium of TV eyepieces, there is quite good and quite cheaper alternative that will get you almost there.

Look at Explore Scientific ranges. Not all of their lines are equally good, but 68 and 82 degrees are very good EPs.

I personally have following lineup to be used with my 8" F/6 dob: 28/68 (two inch EP) for low power / wide field observing, 16mm 68 for main DSO EP, 11mm 82 degrees for higher power DSO and some planetary and recently acquired 5.5mm 62 degrees (still not seen first light) - for high power planetary.

As John mentioned above, they also have x2 and x3 telecentric lens that is the same thing as TV PMs (in terms of optical design) - and reportedly quite good as well.

[Deisler]

1 hour ago, Raph-in-the-sky said:

I know its all relative and depends on one's taste but I will tell you what I would do if I were in your shoes (and I was not long ago).

So, for £200, I would get BST Starguiders 5mm and 15mm, a GSO/Revelation 32mm Plossl and instead of the Barlow I would get a decent UHC filter (Explore Scientific sells for £44 at FLO).

Thank you for your reply, Sir.

Could you please elaborate a bit on 'instead of Barlow' -

I assume you meant Barlow may not be that important if I can have 5/10(stock)/15/25(stock)/32 EPs? 

[Deisler]

1 hour ago, estwing said:

You don't need one ....listen to john and take his advice....or you'll end up like me!!!

Is yours 1.25'' or 2'' Powermate? I know Powermate is not small but I did not expect that size  

That Ethos is a monster!

[Deisler]

1 hour ago, John said:

In pure optical terms the differences might be slight or non existent . Barlows can vignette the field of view of eyepieces with wide field stops and push the eye relief outwards a bit. Powermates and Telextenders don't have these effects. There are other telextender options which cost less than Tele Vue though. The Explore Scientific 2x Focal Extender is one that is very good.

 

 

Thank you, John. I will read some reviews about ES 2x Focal extender. It is currently £76 from FLO, saving £100 off TV PM. With that saving I probably can buy a nice Wide Field 30mm (like Aero 2'')? Certainly a great option!

Edited November 14, 2019 by Deisler

[vlaiv]

4 minutes ago, Deisler said:

Thank you for your reply, Sir.

Could you please elaborate a bit on 'instead of Barlow' -

I assume you meant Barlow may not be that important if I can have 5/10(stock)/15/25(stock)/32 EPs? 

I think that is what was meant above. UHC filter is very nice observing tool - it helps you when observing certain types of nebulae and I think it's worth having.

Barlow is also nice tool, but having had couple of them - in the end I decided that I like short focal length eyepieces more than barlow + EP combination. If you do end up getting barlow or telecentric amplifier lens - then you probably won't need anything below 10mm in EP collection unless you plan to use that particular eyepiece without barlow. Short focal length EP + barlow will give too much magnification. I'm guilty of using it like that - just as a "let's see what can be done" gimmick but never for regular observing.

If you are looking for cheaper comfortable eyepieces in short focal lengths, then do have a look at these:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-eyepieces/skywatcher-uwa-planetary-eyepieces.html

I had one of those and while I was not particularly impressed with optical quality - it was indeed better than stock eyepieces and served me well until I tried better / more expensive eyepieces. Later in discussion with other members I came to conclusion that I might have had rather poor sample. It was 7mm one.

For short focal length EP without barlow I recommend that you stay above 5mm for the time being.

[Raph-in-the-sky]

11 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

I think that is what was meant above. UHC filter is very nice observing tool - it helps you when observing certain types of nebulae and I think it's worth having.

Barlow is also nice tool, but having had couple of them - in the end I decided that I like short focal length eyepieces more than barlow + EP combination. If you do end up getting barlow or telecentric amplifier lens - then you probably won't need anything below 10mm in EP collection unless you plan to use that particular eyepiece without barlow. Short focal length EP + barlow will give too much magnification. I'm guilty of using it like that - just as a "let's see what can be done" gimmick but never for regular observing.

If you are looking for cheaper comfortable eyepieces in short focal lengths, then do have a look at these:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-eyepieces/skywatcher-uwa-planetary-eyepieces.html

I had one of those and while I was not particularly impressed with optical quality - it was indeed better than stock eyepieces and served me well until I tried better / more expensive eyepieces. Later in discussion with other members I came to conclusion that I might have had rather poor sample. It was 7mm one.

For short focal length EP without barlow I recommend that you stay above 5mm for the time being.

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I really preffer short focal lengh EP than EP + barlow... Despite having a pretty good barlow, I seldom use it. On the other hand the UHC filter comes out every single time I go out. It really significantly improves the contrast on many objects (only nebulae but it is a kind of target I really enjoy).

Regarding the Skywatcher UWA, I have some of those and some BSTs and for a similar price I would choose BST's any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

[Raph-in-the-sky]

One more thing to consider...have you got a Telrad finder? This is one of my favorite accessories !

[Deisler]

Just now, Raph-in-the-sky said:

One more thing to consider...have you got a Telrad finder? This is one of my favorite accessories !

Yes sir. I bought it but not yet used it. I used the stock finderscope and found it very difficult to hop between stars. I tried to follow bright stars in Andromeda to locate the galaxy but it is almost impossible for an inexperienced observer to do. I heard Telrad will help me a lot, so I certainly look forward to using it!

I am waiting for my plastic band to arrive tomorrow so I can fix it onto the tube. I don't like to apply the glue thing straight away as I fear I might do something wrong to ruin my tube. Maybe I am just being too cautious. 

Thanks