First ever solar shot

[vineyard]

Hello, newbie member here (also new to AP & solar!).  Thought I'd amuse everyone by sharing my first ever exceedingly amateurish photo of the sun today.  Lunt 50PT Ha, ASI178MC (I know, its colour not mono!), 20 shots stacked in SiriL.  The camera, the software and even the scope (judging by the focus ) are all new to me.  Steep learning curves ahead!

Cheers

Sun 31 oct take 2_00001.tif

[Montana]

A great start  first images are always such a major triumph, so well done!

The first thing you need to do is bring the exposure right down, a lot. You will then find that focus is much easier. Practice will make perfect so keep up the good work!

Alexandra

[vineyard]

Thanks Alexandra - you're being v kind.  It's a pretty poor photo but everyone starts somewhere   Thanks re the over-exposure tip, ok I'm going to dial that down a LOT next time.

I'm also fairly certain that the sun is out of focus.  The ASI instructions say that once focus is achieved in the eyepiece, it just needs to be replaced with the camera - but I reckon that the focal plane for the ASI is not the same as the EP b/c the image was sharper in the EP.  I've subsequently read elsewhere that others have had this problem with this ASI and the Lunt, and there are a couple of work-arounds suggested that I will try.

(And I think I've discovered a problem with the pressure-tuning on the scope: only 1 o-ring in there...?!).

Let's see what the next session brings!

Thank you again for the tip.

Cheers,

Vin

[Rusted]

Congratulations Vin!

Aim for something more like this: See image below:

This is your very own image but with lots of gamma reduction in PhotoFiltre7. [Free software.]

I also resized the image to 600pixels max dimension for easy SGL display and converted it to Jpeg.

Then I just dragged and dropped the Jpeg image into the bottom line of the SGL posting box from my own Pictures folder.

Not trying to be clever! Just helpful.

I am extremely grateful to the members of SGL for their infinite patience and endless help.

[vineyard]

Hi Rusted, wow that is really kind of you, thank you - I had to do a double take to check it was the same image!  And thank you for the other tips too (will check out PhotoFiltre7 too).

I was playing around some more this morning while the Sun was out.  I think the pressure-tuning is sorted (managed to see some Ha features).  The workarounds I was trying to get the ASI178 to focus still didn't work sadly, although I'll maybe try a few more things next time.  So I ended up just grabbing this shot with my phone through the eyepiece.  There was a prominence (or is it called a flare?) at about the 2 o'clock position on the disc which may just be discernible on this [EDIT: not really b/c of the image reduction!].  There was one surreal moment when the silhouette of an aeroplane went in front of the bottom right hand quarter of the sun but sadly I couldn't click fast enough!

Anyway, thank you again - that is v kind & helpful.

Cheers,

Vin

Edited November 6, 2019 by vineyard

[Rusted]

Now that is real progress!

Here I have used the same free software. [PhotoFiltre7]
MS Paint may be able to do this too. I haven't tried it.
I simply cropped your image around the sun's disk and resized it to 400pixels.

What is the problem with the ZWO178? Will it not reach focus inwards?
Or outwards? What was your "workaround?" Have you tried a Barlow?

 

[Highburymark]

On 04/11/2019 at 15:37, vineyard said:

 

(And I think I've discovered a problem with the pressure-tuning on the scope: only 1 o-ring in there...?!).

 

There is only one o-ring on the LS50 so it’s normal. It is very difficult to reattach the piston to the brass section with two o-rings, so you should be fine with one - just make sure it’s properly greased and not leaking

[vineyard]

Cheers Highburymark - yes I intend to keep a close eye on it.  Bresser Germany are kindly also sending out a replacement o-ring just in case.

Rusted, I'm not sure whether its inwards or outwards but in either direction it doesn't reach focus.  The closest it comes is when the graduated dial is at 0 - I lock that in and then try the fine-tuning dial but no joy.  Wrt workarounds, I've tried the followsing:

1) leave the nose piece off on the ASI and thread it into the diagonal directly (ie, with the black cylinder that an EP would normally sit in taken out)

2) leave the nose piece off on the ASI and thread it into the black cylinder directly (from memory this is when it got the closest)

3) lock a generic Barlow into the black cylinder that comes off the diagonal, and then lock the ASI (w nosepiece) into the Barlow

I was running out of time before having to go to work so I couldn't be more systematic than that.  Given (2) I think I will try a couple of additional variations next time

A) pull the telescope side of the diagonal out a bit (instead of having it sit all the way in) and then tighten w the screws

B ) take the optic out of the Barlow, and just thread the black extension of the Barlow to the black cylinder on the EP side of the Lunt diagonal, and then sit the ASI in with a nosepiece

I'll also re-try the options I tried yesterday more methodically.  I suspect I need to extend the light path a bit (but not too much)?  I've also read somewhere that Powermates may be better than Barlows for Ha optical trains?

Btw it seems PhotoFiltre is not for Mac, so I will look at a few other alternatives that can hopefully avoid having to pay for Photoshop!  Still on the learning curve for K-Stars & EKOS right now

Cheers all,

Vin

[Rusted]

I was going to suggest trying the low profile ZWO 1.25" nose but you seem to have tried a number of things.
Try to confirm whether you need to reach further inwards or outwards. Trying to focus on the limb is useful. 
I regularly use a 2x WO [William Optics] Barlow nosepiece screwed directly to the 1.25 nose of either of my ZWO cameras.
It seems to be quite a useful GPC [Glass Path Corrector.] Better performing than either of my TS binoviewer GPCs. IMHO.

I feel your pain on paying for Photoshop. I too have avoided it so far. Not to mention the terrifying learning curve as well.

.

[vineyard]

Hi Rusted,

I tried again this morning, and have come to the conclusion that the problem is insufficient inward travel on the stock helical focuser on the Lunt (the focuser only has 1cm of travel).

So I started trying to put a Barlow in to extend the light path to see if that might allow the ASI to find focus - and then the clouds came in :)  The Sun is being coy.

Will have to wait for a sunnier day (next spring at this rate?).  Alternatively, I noticed that there's a spacer between the focuser and the diagonal - so if I can replace that with a shorter spacer maybe that will create the extra inward travel synthetically.  (But will the light path then be too short to find focus w the EP?).  What a palaver!

Still it was nice seeing the orange peel skin on the Sun this morning.

Cheers,

Vin

[Rusted]

Hi again Vin,

Love the colourful description of your efforts!

We seem to have established your have "orange peel." So your telescope is working as intended.

They say when all else fails: Google it:

The Lunt 50PT website and others talk about a visual B400 and an imaging B600 diagonal for the 50PT.
The B400 is described as perfectly adequate for your size of telescope without any caveats about failing to produce an image on a camera.

First Question: Which diagonal do you have?

The websites all show lots of pretty pictures of the Sun in H-alpha.
Presumably these were taken through a 50PT or it would be "a bit naughty."

Next question: Have you tried your ASI178 with any other telescope? Does it produce a sharp image?

I also found you had an echo in another SGL forum and in "another place" [CN]

Third question: How did the 20mm spacer go?

Are we having three times as much fun yet? 

BTW: You can safely ignore the CN comment about needing a mono camera. 

[Nigella Bryant]

Hi Vin, well done on your first image. There's also a free software for sharpening specific for solar image's called ImPPg. 

As other's have said there's only one O'ring on the lunt 50mm. Also with focus, have you tried not pushing the blocking filter all the way in the focuser then use the focuser to focus. I have to have mine about 20mm further out to achieve focus on the zwo camera. Focus is also slightly different from eyepiece to camera settings. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nigella Bryant
Image added

[vineyard]

Thanks both.  Nigella, I looked at ImPPg after your reply - unfortunately it seems to be Windows only and I'm a Mac user (just to make things more complicated🧐).  Rusted, I have a BP400 but that shouldn't affect the focus should it (from what I can tell, the difference is the size of the gap the remains around the viewed image - BP600 has more space so the image doesn't get potentially clipped?).  I have tried the ASI178 w terrestrial targets on a larger refractor (4" 880mm) with more focuser travel and it worked with that to find sharp focus - I also tested it quickly with white light solar on that same scope and attached is a single shot image I was able to take.

I'm glad I can ignore the mono comment in the other place Rusted 😀 .  Although looking at the ASI120MM mini or ASI290MM mini placement of the sensor does suggest that those could be straight swapped with the EP?  (Nigella you take your amazing photos with an ASI120MM right?)

I haven't tried a 20mm spacer yet (interestingly that's the same thing as Nigella is recommending with keeping the blocking filter out about 20mm).  I thought that the light path needed to be shortened rather than lengthened if a CMOS sensor replaces an EP b/c the chip sits back from the focal plane of an EP (based on what folks in the other place were saying)?  I did try fiddling with the filter placement (although I couldn't do it systematically as the clouds kept getting in the way).  Given ZWO's Black Friday sale till 31 Dec, I may just take a punt on this anyway: https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/product/m42-m42-extender-21-mm-length

Remembering that the turtle got there in the end, I shan't get disheartened just yet!

Cheers,

Vin

[Nigella Bryant]

Hi Vin, yes, I use the zwo asi120mm camera with either a 0.5 reducer or a 3x televue Barlow depending on imaging full disk or particular point of interest, proms, filaments and plage, etc. For proms close up I use the 3x Barlow. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nigella Bryant

[Rusted]

Vin,

Glad we're making progress.

You don't need a ZWO extender.
Nor a mini mono camera.
Use what you have now and enjoy it.

All the astro dealers have T2 x 20mm extenders.
FLO has amazingly quick and helpful service in my own experience.
Despite living on the Continent I now shop at FLO.

They charge less for international postage than Germany.
Which is only "next door" to Denmark but daylight robbers on postage.

But you say you live in Gravely Blighted anyway.
So burn that plastic and get imaging! Or words to that effect.

Baader T2 Extension Tube | First Light Optics

[Nigella Bryant]

8 minutes ago, Rusted said:

Vin,

Glad we're making progress.

You don't need a ZWO extender.
Nor a mini mono camera.
 

Hi Rusted, I was only saying for best resolution and results the best is a mono camera as the wavelength in hydrogen alpha is red so not much of blue or green so you lose a lot of pixels using a colour camera. Didn't mean to infer you can't use what you have. Thanks for highlighting that I might have implied otherwise. The mono zwo Asi 120mm is also one of the cheapest and come up second hand quite often for around £100. It was a suggestion to improve results and yes not a obligatory. Many thanks Rusted and Vin, enjoy what you have and practice with what you have. 

[Rusted]

Hi Nigella,

It seems I did not make myself clear enough. Absolutely no criticism was intended.

I used a ASI120MC [colour] camera myself until very recently. The ZWO colour camera replaced a Neximage5 colour camera.

My own feeling on the subject is that a colour camera will offer far more fun and many more instant rewards for a newcomer to solar imaging.
The picture of the sun on the monitor is far more interesting in white light [or H-alpha] when fed by a colour camera.
The colour camera also be used for lots of other things. Like watching wildlife, birds or for security.
The human eye is far more comfortable with colour images and video. It still has a strong survival factor.

The mono camera may be the weapon of choice for more advanced imagers but often has a much higher expenditure in accessories and far more demanding processing.
It also has a steeper learning curve for the apprentice imager. They badly need all the self-encouragement they can get. Without facing increasingly steep technical hurdles and expense.
Vin is a self-confessed newcomer to imaging. He already has an excellent camera. With no need to rush off for some half-promised improvement from Mono. 

This is only my personal opinion but the "beginner" doesn't really know the "whys" of "upgrading."
Further expenditure is often unnecessary while getting a feel for the hobby and one's place in it.
Almost every amateur has a collection of expensive "stuff" which rarely ever gets used.

The same holds true for solar prisms versus far more affordable foil. The beginner thinks they MUST HAVE a prism because it is "more serious."
The differences are subtle and not worth the expenditure for most casual solar observers and imagers.
The view of the sun through a telescope fitted with solar foil is truly amazing to those who have never seen the sun that way before.
The same holds true on the monitoring screen for imaging.

I keep going back to cycling examples because it has so many parallels. Accessory obsessive behaviour is absolutely rife!
Newcomers to cycling spend a fortune on accessories when all they really need is to cycle more.
The same holds true for astronomy. Become proficient and experienced first. Then you will gain the most from [supposed] upgrades.
The race to own the most toys is already won. By those who can easily afford the most toys!

Never buy anything just to impress others! It doesn't make you a better astronomer. Nor a better cyclist.

[vineyard]

Thanks both.

Re the ZWO extender, I've found all the different formats in astro kit just too confusing at times so I thought I'd stick with the OEM for the camera.  When I looked at the link you shared Rusted, I thought "what's T2" and then googled it and saw that T2 is M42 with a thread pitch of 0.75mm (along with a warning to be careful as conventional M42 has a pitch of 1mm and ne'er the twain should meet).  Then I went back and looked at ZWO and their M42 camera connections are indeed with a pitch of 0.75mm, ie T2...its like the tower of Babel🤷🏽‍♂️

On the camera, no I wouldn't keep both!  It was more the arithmetic of trading into an ASI290MM mini which could also be used for guiding eventually in the future.  No rush there anyway as I don't see myself doing guided night-time imaging for quite a while (just not worth it where my scope lives), so will chew on it a fair bit more - your arguments are both compelling & reassuring Rusted.

Nigella re the reducer/barlow, this is where I get confused with the extender.  I can see the logic for a reducer - it contracts the focal length and so if inward focus was a challenge, then it makes perfect sense.  (And for zooming in on prominences, the magnification of a Barlow also makes sense).  Where I'm left scratching my head is how an extension spacer would fix things if the problem is with inward focus, since after the extension, the CMOS chip is further away not closer to the objective.  (Unless it's about getting the chip sensor somewhere between where the EP focal plane and the EP objective would be).  Anyway, nothing venture nothing gained - I'll try a spacer & report back.

Cheers both for all your help - it's always good for your own insanity to have someone to use as a sounding board!

Vin

Edited November 19, 2019 by vineyard

[Nigella Bryant]

5 hours ago, Rusted said:

Hi Nigella,

It seems I did not make myself clear enough. Absolutely no criticism was intended.

No worries Rusted, we all have our preferences. As long as we can live and learn, lol. "Big hug." 

[Nigella Bryant]

10 hours ago, vineyard said:

Nigella re the reducer/barlow, this is where I get confused with the extender.  I can see the logic for a reducer - it contracts the focal length and so if inward focus was a challenge, then it makes perfect sense.  (And for zooming in on prominences, the magnification of a Barlow also makes sense).  Where I'm left scratching my head is how an extension spacer would fix things if the problem is with inward focus, since after the extension, the CMOS chip is further away not closer to the objective.  (Unless it's about getting the chip sensor somewhere between where the EP focal plane and the EP objective would be).  Anyway, nothing venture nothing gained - I'll try a spacer & report back.

Cheers both for all your help - it's always good for your own insanity to have someone to use as a sounding board!

Vin

Hi Vin, I have to put my blocking filter 20mm out to gain focus so I think it is that the point of focus is changed outward. It may be different of course for the lunt 50mm, I use the lunt 60mm. I'm surprised that it can't reach focus. Has your's got an helical or crayford focuser as this would make a difference. 

[Pete Presland]

I remember having similar issues when I 1st purchased my Lunt 50mm. Hopefully this thread might be of some help as well.

Congratulations on our 1st image.

 

[vineyard]

Hello, thanks for this both.

Nigella, I have a helical focuser with the princely amount of 10mm travel back & forth.  I can find focus with an EP but there isn't enough inward travel for the camera.  Yes I think the Lunt 60 seems to be better equipped (although I guess even you have had to use work-arounds with reducers etc).

Pete, thanks for that link - v helpful.  I did see it earlier in my internet trawls but then had lost it.  I remember being equal parts impressed at the ingenuity & also appalled that rubber bands would be needed for kit like this! 😂 Chapeau.

Upon re-reading it, and carefully looking at the photos, you're giving me ideas & hope.  In particular, the first photo in that thread.  I notice you've got the nose piece of the diagonal out a bit and that that worked with your ASI120.  I think the 178 & 120 have v similar bodies.  I was starting to try that systematically last time but then the clouds arrived.  So I'll keep persevering with that.

I'm guessing the DMK has different dimensions than the ASI if that worked for you with the nosepiece all the way in, and the thinner adapter than the stock Lunt 30mm after the diagonal (photo 6 in the thread)?

One Q for you.  Did you try putting the 2.5x powermate after the diagonal and then attaching the ASI (either with or without nosepieces) to it?  I've been toying with whether that would work (perhaps by placing the powermate in at different depths into the eyepiece holder after the diagonal, so that the optical image it makes parallel has different dimensions (to match the chip size) depending on how deep the powermate is sitting, but have no powermate to try it with!

Cheers both - now to wait for the sun (again).

Vin

[Rusted]

Vin,

I just tried focusing my 120MC and my 174MM in the same telescope. Vixen 90/11, 1000mm focal length.
Both cameras focus at exactly the same point of focuser travel.

It seems that ZWO thought it through a made the relative sensor position the same for different cameras.
Which seems obvious for those swapping between cameras not to have to search for focus each time.
The sensor positions look very different in the bodies but are NOT changed relative to the 1.25" nosepiece.

Adding a 2x WO Barlow NOSE to the nosepiece of the 120 moved focus outwards by 25mm.
I was careful to seat the camera and Barlow right into the focuser to stop at the camera face.

Next I removed the camera and Barlow NOSE and popped a 26mm Meade 4000 Plossl into the focuser.
This needed 22mm of outward travel to reach focus on the same target.

Which suggests you need to move your camera 22mm inwards from your eyepiece focal point too.

Or, add a 2x Barlow NOSE to the camera nosepiece to achieve a very similar focus position to the eyepiece. +/- a couple of millimetres.
I like the William Optics 2x Barlow NOSE because it is affordable and doubles as a GPC for binoviewers.
Moreover, it has a 1.25" filter thread to fit on the camera nosepiece.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Rusted
typo

[Nigella Bryant]

2 hours ago, vineyard said:

Hello, thanks for this both.

Nigella, I have a helical focuser with the princely amount of 10mm travel back & forth.  I can find focus with an EP but there isn't enough inward travel for the camera.  Yes I think the Lunt 60 seems to be better equipped (although I guess even you have had to use work-arounds with reducers etc).

Arrrrr, that explains everything. The helical focuser, as you say has limited inward travel. Wish I'd ask which focuser you had b4. It all makes sense now. At least you're finding some work arounds now. I don't understand why lunt made them with that kind of focuser, except to keep cost down. There is an upgrade option of a Crayford focuser for the lunt 50mm. I know rediculous. Yes, I've had to use work arounds, particularly if I wanted full disk imaging and not mess around with mosaics. 

[Rusted]

Question: Is there anything empty, tubular and removable from the system?

I've looked at the images online but can't see whether anything is easily removable.

Can you take off the complete helical focuser and attach the diagonal directly to something else on the rear of the tuner? 

T2 thread size? You can get nice compression band, eyepiece receptacles to fit on that. 
Male and female via gender changing threaded rings.
Some have focusing via bodily rotation. I have one on both my H-a and Vixen 90.

Or you can use push-pull focusing on the camera nosepiece and grip it in the EP compression band.
I've done all this at a push.