F7 vs F9 (TS102 vs 100ED)

[rwilkey]

23 hours ago, grjsk said:

I really enjoy the slow motion controls, so I don't think the AZ-4 is an option. The AZ-5 has the same weight limit as the AZ-3, but is it regarded as a more sturdy mount overall? That could be an option..

Hi there, I agree with others, the AZ3 option is risky/borderline, the AZ5 would be a good contender.  I chose the Vixen Porta II Mount which carries my f/9 100ED well and has slo-mo controls.  The only thing is that it is more expensive, but what price stability?

[grjsk]

I’ve done some more digging, and it seems that the ED100 is 3,5 kg with rings, and that the TS-102 is 5 kg with rings. Sounds strange that the shorter 714mm is 1,5 kg heavier than the 900mm..

The ED80 is about 3 kg.

[JG777]

49 minutes ago, rwilkey said:

Hi there, I agree with others, the AZ3 option is risky/borderline, the AZ5 would be a good contender.  I chose the Vixen Porta II Mount which carries my f/9 100ED well and has slo-mo controls.  The only thing is that it is more expensive, but what price stability?

Totally right, an unstable mount will kill the best scope in the world. What is often overlooked is the tripod, it really is key to stability. Like others I learned the hard way eventually saving funds for some Swiss engineering and some Berlebach wood, it becomes a night and day difference. Sadly its all cost but my attitude now is measure twice cut once.

I did for a time use an SW ED Apo 100mm on AZ4 which had the steel tripod, that was more stable than the aluminium one. A fair difference as I recall, never needed slow mo either. When it worked it was quite stable with the 100mm but mine was poor quality, mount and scope and that lot and I were soon divorced. 

I have to admit I now avoid SW stuff and have only one item from them an Equinox 80, everything else has either arrived faulty, of just has not lasted the pace. 

[paulastro]

Also a big thumbs up for the AZ4 from me.  It comfortably takes my SW 120ED, I can use it at over x200 with the AZ4 - as long as it's not too windy.  For me, except for very short scopes, the AZ5 is very much in the second division.

Here's a couple of pics of the 120 on the AZ4 on a Pentax theodolite tripod - the tripod being a £10 bargain snapped up at Kelling.  It's a vey substantial tripod and very easy to use the scope even at the zenith.

[Ben the Ignorant]

2 hours ago, grjsk said:

Hanging around on this forum gets more costly by the minute!

Not always. Some modding can save money:

And the AZ-4 head has more potential than its price suggests but it also takes some modifying. This is what I call a Z-arm, it carries a standard counterweight at the front and to the left of the head to balance the scope whose weight is at the rear and to the right.

It's bolted to the baseplate but it could also be clamped between the baseplase and the arm without drilling any extra holes. This allows to drive the azimut axle with barely any friction so the motion is more fluid and accurate. Made with stuff from any tool store, L-brackets bolted together to make a Z-arm.

And speaking of balance, the elevation axle needs quite a bit of friction if the tube is not balanced but a system like this...

...allows much less friction, so the cheap AZ-4 performs like a higher-grade mount. The tube tilt-lock counterweight, as I called it, simply slides along the tube and locks itself in place because there is play between the tube and counterweight, whose weight is all on one side. So it tilts and that forces the counterweight to stick to the tube.

Doesn't scratch the tube and doesn't move one millimeter after one hour when the tube points vertically, I tested that. As you see, spending a lot is not mandatory. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ben the Ignorant

[grjsk]

If I end up with the Skytee; would I need a new clamp, as I see alot of other people recommend, for a scope like the TS102 or 100ED, or are they light enough so that is not needed?

[johninderby]

The stock clamps ade very poor. Definately need changing for sonething better.

[John]

I agree. It's a good mount but the stock clamps are poor. They should have upgraded the clamps to a better design ages ago I reckon.

The reason why folks put up with that and upgrade the clamps is that there is not much that competes with the Skytee II in terms carrying capacity vs price.

For the 2 scopes that you are considering though, the 1st of the mounts that you posted links to should do the job. This UK supplier has something very similar on sale currently:

https://www.365astronomy.com/365Astronomy-AZ5-Versatile-Vari-angle-Micro-Motion-Alt-Azimuth-Telescope-Mount-with-Stainless-Steel-Tripod.html

 

[Greymouser]

1 hour ago, John said:

This UK supplier has something very similar on sale currently:

That looks very similar to one I saw from Orion Optics, but theirs is more expensive. Thanks for that John, you might have solved my need for something of a stop gap measure.

https://www.orionoptics.co.uk/MOUNTS/alt-azmount.html

Edited October 16, 2019 by Greymouser

[JG777]

Some info here and @Ags had one.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by JG777

[John]

29 minutes ago, JG777 said:

Some info here and @Ags had one.

 

Hmmm, maybe not then ?

If the original poster could do without slow motion controls the AZ-4 would do the job well as mikeDnight and paulastro have said.

 

[StarryEyed]

GEJEK

It's useful to remember that tripods can be upgraded or even home built whilst the head tends to be what it is. I used a home built wooden tripod for many years until it started getting a little loose. It cost me next to nothing and wasent very portable. It didn't need to be. If you have access to existing fence posts or concrete pillars you might just need to think a little differently about how you set up.

[Rob Sellent]

I feel that the majority of alt-azimuth mounts on the market are good for small, short length fracs. However, when it comes to longer length fracs we've got to be cautious. It's not only the concern of weight that needs to be taken into account (scope + accessories: diagonal, eyepiece, viewfinder, tube rings, dovetail) but also as @John says, the length of the tube and the tripod.

Within reason the performance of this set up will be a subjective affair. If the goal of the mount and tripod is to have reasonable dampening times and smooth movements the level of toleration will vary from person to person. One of the worst visual experiences is having to deal with an unstable, overmounted, wobbly set up. My own toleration of dampening down times is therefore just about zero. Taking this into account, I don't think it is unreasonable to argue that for longer length 4" fracs cut the advertised load capacity by about 40% and ensure that the tripod is at least a 1.75" steel tripod.

I feel that mounts like the SW AZ5, ES Twilight I, and Vixen Porta II, are for me too unstable for a 4" f7/f9 frac. I find them unsuited to high-power lunar and planetary observations.  The AZ4 is a fine mount but I have found that with 4" f9 and f10 fracs if the supplied steel tripod legs are extended the set up wobbles too much at reasonably high magnifications.

A step up from the AZ4 are the heavy duty AZ mounts like the  SW HDAZ (I have one but no longer sure they're on the market), or WO EZ Touch (again, I'm no longer convinced they're on sale). I cannot speak for the EZ Touch but I prefer mounting my 4" f9 on the HDAZ rather than on the AZ4. The advertised blurp states that the mount's total capacity is around 14kg, and no doubt that's true but again, weight is not the issue but the scope's length.  

A step up from these HD mounts would no doubt be something like TS AZ5, SkyTee 2, Giro Ercole, or Ayo II, these would perform wonderfully with a 4" f9, for example, without fear of being overmounted but needless to say, costs are a significant step from the AZ 4. 

To sum:

• If you're looking for a decent mount for general use get the AZ4.
• If you can find one on the secondhand market get the SW HDAZ/EZ Touch.
• If budget stretches and/or you really need slow motion controls get the TS AZ5 (knowing that you're covered if ever you want a 5" frac)
• If you want a gorgeous set up for fracs, get an Ercole or Ayo and one of those fancy Berlebach wood tripods .

 

[johninderby]

Or if you really want something special the new Rowan AZ100.  😎

Edited October 17, 2019 by johninderby

[grjsk]

I'll admit the Skytee 2 is tempting. And with something like this perhaps:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/adm-replacement-saddles/adm-vixen-style-saddle.html

[johninderby]

Just so happens my TS-AZ5 will be going up for sale next month when I get my AZ100. 😁

Edited October 17, 2019 by johninderby

[grjsk]

40 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Just so happens my TS-AZ5 will be going up for sale next month when I get my AZ100. 😁

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