Eyepiece Advice

[JCAZ]

I am seeking advice regarding the selection of an eyepiece for a Takahashi FC100DZ F/8.  The eyepiece will be used for deep sky viewing in Mag 6 skies.  I tend to push magnification, even for viewing deep sky, particular on small galaxies, so the focal length/ exit pupil may be shorter/smaller than is considered typical.

I have been looking at eyepieces from 4.7mm Ethos SX to 10mm (Ethos, Pentax etc.) as well as some more exotics such as the Doctor or even a Nikon HW.  I was thinking that a 1mm exit pupil or larger might be wise for this purpose, and my desires, which might mean an 8mm Ethos or Delos.  But I am certain I wish to stay between 1 to 1.5mm exit pupil.

 

Actual experiences with eyepieces preferred, but any input would be welcomed. I do not view with glasses and tend not to be challenged by short eye relief.  So for example I use a Nagler zoom or an ortho without to much difficulty.  That said, I don’t want to go there if I don’t have to.  Budget really not a concern.

[Louis D]

It might help to list what eyepieces you already are using in this range to avoid recommending something you already own.  Also, are you using a tracking mount?  If not, then the hyper-wides can be advantageous.

You could also post your question to Cloudy Nights as it is US based.  You might even be able to connect with a local AZ stargazer and be able to borrow equipment for evaluation.

[Timebandit]

23 minutes ago, Louis D said:

 

You could also post your question to Cloudy Nights as it is US based.  

 

Hey stop poaching our members by suggesting Cloudy Nights 😀😀😀😀😀😀

 

 

Turning to the OP , ever thought of the Pentax XW . If you like Ortho sharpness of views , but with great eye relief and a wider angle view . Then IMO the Pentax XW are up there with the best eyepiece's. I don't have a Tak , but I do have a 120ed frac ,and a range of Pentax XW 5mm, 7mm and 10mm , and I am more than happy with them. Had the Pentax XW for years and as an eyepiece are real 'Keepers'

Hope that is some help to you 🔭

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Timebandit

[JTEC]

I have the 8 and 10mm Delos which I use with my 140mm f7 refractor and find them excellent: sharp, comfortable, contrasty, great tone and rendition of star colours, throughput reportedly a little bit better than comparable Ethos. I still might be tempted by the Ethos if money were no object but Alvin Huey reports that he replaced his Ethos eps with Deloses because they went deeper!  I can honestly think of nothing to criticise about the Deloses I own - even in those moments of restlessness we get that lead us to dream and speculate about eyepiece pastures new. And I always conclude that I can’t think of anything that would be  better.

[JCAZ]

56 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

Hey stop poaching our members by suggesting Cloudy Nights 😀😀😀😀😀😀

 

 

Turning to the OP , ever thought of the Pentax XW . If you like Ortho sharpness of views , but with great eye relief and a wider angle view . Then IMO the Pentax XW are up there with the best eyepiece's. I don't have a Tak , but I do have a 120ed frac ,and a range of Pentax XW 5mm, 7mm and 10mm , and I am more than happy with them. Had the Pentax XW for years and as an eyepiece are real 'Keepers'

Hope that is some help to you 🔭

 

 

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

Hey stop poaching our members by suggesting Cloudy Nights 😀😀😀😀😀😀

 

 

Turning to the OP , ever thought of the Pentax XW . If you like Ortho sharpness of views , but with great eye relief and a wider angle view . Then IMO the Pentax XW are up there with the best eyepiece's. I don't have a Tak , but I do have a 120ed frac ,and a range of Pentax XW 5mm, 7mm and 10mm , and I am more than happy with them. Had the Pentax XW for years and as an eyepiece are real 'Keepers'

Hope that is some help to you 🔭

 

 

 

 

I have tried the XW's, they are excellent.  Perhaps the 7 or the 10 would work.

[JCAZ]

11 minutes ago, JTEC said:

I have the 8 and 10mm Delos which I use with my 140mm f7 refractor and find them excellent: sharp, comfortable, contrasty, great tone and rendition of star colours, throughput reportedly a little bit better than comparable Ethos. I still might be tempted by the Ethos if money were no object but Alvin Huey reports that he replaced his Ethos eps with Deloses because they went deeper!  I can honestly think of nothing to criticise about the Deloses I own - even in those moments of restlessness we get that lead us to dream and speculate about eyepiece pastures new. And I always conclude that I can’t think of anything that would be  better.

I have never tried  Delos, seems like a good options, especially with comfy eye relief.  Anyone ever compared the Delos to the XW's?

[JCAZ]

Anyone tried the NAV 12.5/10.  Pricey, but two eyepieces in one.

[jetstream]

4 hours ago, JCAZ said:

Anyone tried the NAV 12.5/10.  Pricey, but two eyepieces in one.

I have the Docter 12.5mm UWA which is my deepest widefield, it surpassed my Ethos and is an orthoscopic widefield IMHO. My 17 HW/14 Nikon does not go as deep as the Docter- some will say its because of the mag difference but no its just not as deep. Delos are VG and deep but the Docter was a bit sharper on lunar/planetary.

My deepest eyepiece believe it or not is the Baader 10mm BCO with and without the VIP barlow.

[JCAZ]

5 minutes ago, jetstream said:

I have the Docter 12.5mm UWA which is my deepest widefield, it surpassed my Ethos and is an orthoscopic widefield IMHO. My 17 HW/14 Nikon does not go as deep as the Docter- some will say its because of the mag difference but no its just not as deep. Delos are VG and deep but the Docter was a bit sharper on lunar/planetary.

My deepest eyepiece believe it or not is the Baader 10mm BCO with and without the VIP barlow.

Thank you very much.  Ya, a well executed simple design is tough to beat for raw performance.  I was thinking I might try a TOE, they get good reviews.

But this Doctor eyepiece intrigues me.  Good focal length for my scope and seems to get universal praise. I have not tried a Delos, also an eyepiece that seems to get good reviews, although some complain about eye placement.

Compared to the Nikon the Doctor is a steal, but the Nikon is two eyepieces in one.  I think it is logical however, to assume the difference in focal length between the Doctor and the Nikon is having an impact.

[Louis D]

I have the 14mm XL, 10mm Delos, 7mm XW, 5.2mm XL, and 3.5mm XW.  The Delos is flat of field and sharp to the edge with or without a coma corrector at f/6.  I have never had blackout issues with it.  The 14mm XL has field curvature, as does the 14mm XW as I understand it, but is otherwise flawless to the edge with refocusing.  The 7mm XW has a finicky exit pupil and weird chromatic aberrations at the edge.  I rarely use it because of these two strikes against it.  The 5.2mm XL is flawless edge to edge like the Delos with an easy exit pupil.  The 3.5mm XW is very well behaved as well, but rarely used due to seeing conditions and floaters in my observing eye.

[JCAZ]

4 minutes ago, Louis D said:

I have the 14mm XL, 10mm Delos, 7mm XW, 5.2mm XL, and 3.5mm XW.  The Delos is flat of field and sharp to the edge with or without a coma corrector at f/6.  I have never had blackout issues with it.  The 14mm XL has field curvature, as does the 14mm XW as I understand it, but is otherwise flawless to the edge with refocusing.  The 7mm XW has a finicky exit pupil and weird chromatic aberrations at the edge.  I rarely use it because of these two strikes against it.  The 5.2mm XL is flawless edge to edge like the Delos with an easy exit pupil.  The 3.5mm XW is very well behaved as well, but rarely used due to seeing conditions and floaters in my observing eye.

Sounds like you really like the Delos.  Certainly would be less expensive.  The reason I am going through all this is because I am rebuilding my collection.  Just got the new scope and need a few eyepieces to complement it.  I also want to avoid buying a ton of eyepieces because it really isn't necessary, maybe fun, but not necessary.  So I am looking for a high quality deep sky eyepiece to the heavy lifting on medium to high power deep sky observing.  Based on exit pupil, something between 8 to 12 or 13mm should fit the bill.  The Nikon intrigues because it's two eyepieces in one, but pricey.

In any case, thank you for the response, much appreciated.

john

[Sagitta]

From what I've read around, you'd 'need' an 8mm Delos. Unless you really want bigger AFoV. Then it's 9mm Nagler > 8mm Ethos.

[Timebandit]

6 hours ago, Louis D said:

The 7mm XW has a finicky exit pupil and weird chromatic aberrations at the edge.  I rarely use it because of these two strikes against it.  

 

I am surprised by Louis observations when using the 7mm XW , just a great sharp eyepiece to the edge in the 120ed frac at around f/7.6. And just as sharp in the dob at around f/4.7. I suppose we all have our own experiences . But from my experience in my scopes the Pentax 7 XW for sharpness, combined with great eye relief and a nice wide angle is the best 7mm I have used. 

 

As for Pentax v Delos. I have not done a direct comparison (John from SGL maybe the gent to give a better reply on this). But from what I know of the Pentax 3.5XW to the 10XW are just top tier, after the 10mm up the XW range seem to get a mix reviews then. The Delos seem to get good feedback also. So probably in reality very little to choose between them. But the Pentax XW are probably a little better😀 . But I would say that as an owner of them .🙉🙊🙈

 

 

 

 

[jetstream]

9 hours ago, JCAZ said:

Compared to the Nikon the Doctor is a steal, but the Nikon is two eyepieces in one.  I think it is logical however, to assume the difference in focal length between the Doctor and the Nikon is having an impact.

Youre welcome John and yes it is logical to assume this. I base my opinion on comparisons with 2 very good zooms- the Zeiss 25.1-6.7mm and the Leica Asph- at the 14mm setting the Nikon "14"/EIC goes no deeper than these 2 excellent zooms to my eyes.

The Docter is deeper than both zooms.... and my 12.5mm Tak ortho. Yes eye placement is a bit awkward.

However, for some objects such as the Eagle and Swan nebs the Nikon 17/14 has no peer, at least in comparison to the EP's I own, mind you the Docter is pretty fri cken good here too lol!

Have you considered a direct from Japan purchase?

[JCAZ]

1 hour ago, jetstream said:

Youre welcome John and yes it is logical to assume this. I base my opinion on comparisons with 2 very good zooms- the Zeiss 25.1-6.7mm and the Leica Asph- at the 14mm setting the Nikon "14"/EIC goes no deeper than these 2 excellent zooms to my eyes.

The Docter is deeper than both zooms.... and my 12.5mm Tak ortho. Yes eye placement is a bit awkward.

However, for some objects such as the Eagle and Swan nebs the Nikon 17/14 has no peer, at least in comparison to the EP's I own, mind you the Docter is pretty fri cken good here too lol!

Have you considered a direct from Japan purchase?

I thought about the direct from Japan approach but haven't had any luck.  Either I can't find it on some of the websites discussed or the pages are in Japanese and are finicky.  So for example, I tried Amazon Japan, but I think you need to create an account (my U.S. version doesn't work).  Also, the Japanese Amazon keeps reverting back to Japanese and will not translate as you go deeper into the purchasing process and get towards checking out.

[jetstream]

27 minutes ago, JCAZ said:

I thought about the direct from Japan approach but haven't had any luck.  Either I can't find it on some of the websites discussed or the pages are in Japanese and are finicky.  So for example, I tried Amazon Japan, but I think you need to create an account (my U.S. version doesn't work).  Also, the Japanese Amazon keeps reverting back to Japanese and will not translate as you go deeper into the purchasing process and get towards checking out.

https://www.kyoei-osaka.jp/SHOP/165261/165262/list.html

[JCAZ]

2 minutes ago, jetstream said:

https://www.kyoei-osaka.jp/SHOP/165261/165262/list.html

OMG - too funny.  I am on their website right now.  I think I can send them an e-mail and try to place on order, right.  They have the Nikon, but not the Doctor?

THX again, 

john

 

[jetstream]

1 minute ago, JCAZ said:

OMG - too funny.  I am on their website right now.  I think I can send them an e-mail and try to place on order, right.  They have the Nikon, but not the Doctor?

THX again, 

john

 

Not sure about the Docter, which is now called Noblex but they offer the Nikons and are excellent to deal with.

[JCAZ]

1 minute ago, jetstream said:

Not sure about the Docter, which is now called Noblex but they offer the Nikons and are excellent to deal with.

Than you sir, much appreciated!

[JTEC]

Is this it?   https://www.kyoei-osaka.jp/SHOP/docter-uwa125.html.  

[JCAZ]

4 hours ago, JTEC said:

Is this it?   https://www.kyoei-osaka.jp/SHOP/docter-uwa125.html.  

It is.  Well done. Although that one is actually more expensive than in the states.  Still, nice find.

Edited September 13, 2019 by JCAZ

[JCAZ]

Questions,

 

When you order from Japan, do you do it by phone or e-mail?

[JCAZ]

Of late I am really leaning toward an 8mm Ethos.  Using it with a 13mm NT6 would give me a good deeps sky bracket for small galaxies and nebulae, I believe. 8mm Ethos, because the scope is F/8 provides a 1mm exit pupil,  1 degree  actual field of view, at 100X.   Seems like that should have some kind of cosmic significance.  FLASH - 8mm ETHOS ACTUALLY MADE BY SAME ALIENS THAT BUILT THE PYRAMIDS!

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

On 12/09/2019 at 03:59, Louis D said:

I have the 14mm XL, 10mm Delos, 7mm XW, 5.2mm XL, and 3.5mm XW.  The Delos is flat of field and sharp to the edge with or without a coma corrector at f/6.  I have never had blackout issues with it.  The 14mm XL has field curvature, as does the 14mm XW as I understand it, but is otherwise flawless to the edge with refocusing.  The 7mm XW has a finicky exit pupil and weird chromatic aberrations at the edge.  I rarely use it because of these two strikes against it.  The 5.2mm XL is flawless edge to edge like the Delos with an easy exit pupil.  The 3.5mm XW is very well behaved as well, but rarely used due to seeing conditions and floaters in my observing eye.

I have never had any issues with any of my XWs (I have the 5, 7, and 10mm). The XW 7 is just as comfortable as the others, showing crisp stars right to the edge, both in my C8 at F/10 and 80mm F/6 triplet. I also have the Delos  6 and 8mm EPs, and they are just as comfortable.  

[JCAZ]

Thanks for the feedback.

Back in the day I generally was one that would buy and try everything.  I bought Naglers, Radians, TMB Supermonos, Brandons, Tak LE's, Panoptics and pretty much everything new and improved.  I did own the 5mm Pentax XW and the 7mm.  I do the recall the 7mm being a bit different than the 5mm - it did surprise me but it was not a deal breaker.

Now I tend toward a more basic approach.  I try to buy quality, but keep things to a minimum. Currently my deep sky kit is:

30mm Paragon

13mm Nagler Type 6

Pentax XF 8.5

Nagler Zoom 3-6

For a while, while living back east, I really ramped down on pursuing astronomy as conditions right outside Washington D.C. were not very good.  More recently I moved to a very rural, very small, very dark Arizona community and my interest has been rekindled.

With the decision to purchase a Takahashi FC100DZ to use in my new found conditions, I felt I would like to try a new uber wide  - one of the 100mm fields.  I briefly tried a friends 13mm Erhos right around the time it came out, it was very nice but I really don't recall the total feel that well.

To complement my current kit I thought something in the uber wide category would be nice right around the 8mm XF eyepiece, because while comfortable and competent, it really is not a top shelf performer and was noticeably bested by the likes of Brandon and the TV Plossol.

In another thread I am seeking a top shelf performer as a high power complement in  the Nagler Zoom range for planetary. The 4mm TOE seems to be the front runner right now (I don't wear glasses, but probably should for reading).

SO - that's my story and what I am trying to accomplish.  I don't mind spending a bit now, I just don't want to get into the "eyepiece junky" phase where people show cases full of eyepieces based more on "having the whole set" then actual viewing needs.  I would like to try and avoid getting caught up in the commodity fetish side of the hobby and be a bit more precise and selective.

So right now I am feeling like I want something far enough from the 13mm that does not have too small of an exit pupil.  Reflecting on this like a well disciplined monk (who can not shake his attachment to worldly items), it seems 8mm would be good at 1mm XP.   And for the record, I am not tied to the 8mm Ethos, just seems to check a lot of boxes (including the fact that it does not weigh 6 pounds - 2.72 kilos - know they audience).  The Pentax 7mm XW, or the 8mm Delos seem like good candidates as well.  There may be others.

There does not seem to be much on the Nikon SW's or the Takahashi UWA's.  Anyone tried those?

Thank you to all who have commented and those who may yet share their perspective.

john

Edited September 18, 2019 by JCAZ