CEM60-EC and plethora of issues

[souls33k3r]

Hi All,

I thought it's time to seek some serious help because i am on the verge of calling quits with this mount as i've spent nearly 4 (spending nearly 30hrs) clear nights given to me on this mount.

It is a brand new mount bought from @FLO and i have only now managed to get a chance to fully test this and reporting it (because i was waiting on the pier to be set up).

As much as i love the mount for how it looks, it just isn't performing how i have been expecting it to be. I will list out issues accordingly. (Both RA and DEC are perfectly balanced in all 3 axis)

Polar Alignment

I have performed polar alignment using PoleMaster for a while now and am familiar with the process. For those who aren't, i do apologise if this doesn't make sense.

Before i explain what the issue is, i find that the adapter for Polemaster is super bad. My polemaster comes loose because all what is holding it down is one thumb screw and the Polemaster starts rotating. It does become somewhat find if i put herculian force behind the thumb screw but that's just about it.

Any way, after selecting Polaris, i set up the template and choose a star. When i choose a star and move it slightly more than 30 degrees i noticed the star jumps outwards when the mount moves. It does the exact same things when i reselect the same star and move the mount. When i select the star for the third time, Polemaster software draws a line on which the star needs to stay on and i ask the mount to move back to the home position. When moving back, the star can be seen jumping (see video below):

The polar alignment error shown in PHD2 is somewhere around 30 - 50 arc minutes. Since the above video, i also tried SharpCap and got to the point where it said "Excellent".

PHD2

After polar alignment, regardless of whether i did it with Polemaster or SharpCap, the guide graph makes me scratch my head. I tried to calibrate on the object but did not see the change in behaviour of the guide graph. I tried to calibrate at Dec 0 and still the same issue. The DEC stays above the line even though PHD is sending corrections but it would still stay above the line. All the corrections are in one direction. RA does the exact same thing but in the opposite direction. The total RMS is somewhat reasonable and i have seen as low as 0.5". I have been tinkering with the numbers but nothing seem to make any difference.

My bullseye looks like this which then equates to another issue ahead

Issue with collected Subs

Ok, i could ignore the PHD2 numbers but i can not because all of the above that i have mentioned results in elongated stars. Ok i must admit, i am pixel peeping but that's where i can see what the issue is. My small stars are showing elongation and i can clearly see from sub frame to sub frame that my image is drifting which also shows in the above bulls eye as well.

Below is a crop of the same image with 5 minutes difference.

I have spent so much time with this mount and trying to tame this and figure it out and i can not seem to get it. I'm not sure what else to do now.

Please help because i literally can not afford to be losing any more nights with this mount . It seriously is putting me off using this mount completely and that's not what i paid for.

Thanks in advance.

 

[alan potts]

I don't use Polemaster but there appears to be something wrong here. You have to take this up with FLO, they will see that what ever it is is put right in which ever way, but I am sure in the end you will be happy apart from the wait I guess. I am no expert but the guiding does not look what I would call good.

Alan

[Anne S]

I've always moved the R.A. manually when using the Polemaster. It says to do it using the handset/Commander but as it's only finding where the mount is pointing, I've never found it makes any difference. One less complication. As to the stars appearing to be off the green circle, I would put that down to atmospheric distortion or the lens on the Polemaster. I don't normally zoom in that closely. We get rubbish skies in Wales mostly! When I polar aligned earlier this year, the only issue I had was when I tightened the adjusters. There was some movement showing on the screen. I spent some time running unguided exposures last night and managed 2 minutes unguided at 564mm with my SX694 pointed at M52 which was pretty high. I got increasing elongation on 3 and 4 minutes. I put that down to the movement when I polar aligned. I'll fix that when I get back from Kelling as the Polemaster is at the bottom of the motorhome garage!

i haven't noticed any issue with the Polemaster adapter but I don't leave the Polemaster in as I need it for travelling.

As to the guiding, that looks like the issue reported on cloudynights. Have you tried contacting Ioptron support to see if they've got anywhere with a fix, or if they can supply a copy of the earlier firmware from 2016/17 that my 60ec is using? We've got several Ioptron mounts and we've always found them very helpful.

I'm hoping to actually do some imaging next clear night after spending last night running v-curves mostly.

Anne

[fwm891]

Your obviously having problems. You've got your mount now pointing to polaris with Polemaster, have you tried to drift align the mount with PHD and ignoring polemaster? With my old iEQ 45 Pro Polemaster gave mediocre results.

Are your stars the same shape across the frame, longer one side/corner than the other.  Personally I think your PA is off line which may be due to the problems in locating the Polemaster adapter and securing Polestar itself in the adapter. Your PHD graph is not that bad, certainly those errors would be guided out.

I used PHD's drift align routine to set mine up because I can't see the pole star. That took a few iterations but it has been well worth it. I found the adjusters for azimuther awkward and used an allen (hex) key to allow small adjustments when I got near. If you try PHD's drift align don't be put off by the erratic movement of the dec line when you start the 'drift' measurement it needs 30 secs or so to settle and show its basic direction. Longer is better once your homing in of final adjustments. My CEM60 Standard is a pleasure now it's PA is properly aligned.

Good luck, it's frustrating when stuff doesn't live up to expectations out of the box. 

Francis

[cotak]

What is your OTA? It is balanced in all orientations of DEC? The belt and magnetically loaded worms results in a stretchy behavior if your OTA is horizontal balanced but has a vertical imbalance. It could cause similar behavior as what you see although usually it eventually catches up with a large overshoot.

[souls33k3r]

4 hours ago, alan potts said:

I don't use Polemaster but there appears to be something wrong here. You have to take this up with FLO, they will see that what ever it is is put right in which ever way, but I am sure in the end you will be happy apart from the wait I guess. I am no expert but the guiding does not look what I would call good.

Alan

I agree Alan, there is something wrong there and cut the life of me I don't know what is. FLO have always been nothing but awesome and they really look after their customers but before I put it to them, I wanted to reach out to the community to see if there was anything else that I can do because like I said I've spent so many hours on this to validate my efforts. 

2 hours ago, Anne S said:

I've always moved the R.A. manually when using the Polemaster. It says to do it using the handset/Commander but as it's only finding where the mount is pointing, I've never found it makes any difference. One less complication. As to the stars appearing to be off the green circle, I would put that down to atmospheric distortion or the lens on the Polemaster. I don't normally zoom in that closely. We get rubbish skies in Wales mostly! When I polar aligned earlier this year, the only issue I had was when I tightened the adjusters. There was some movement showing on the screen. I spent some time running unguided exposures last night and managed 2 minutes unguided at 564mm with my SX694 pointed at M52 which was pretty high. I got increasing elongation on 3 and 4 minutes. I put that down to the movement when I polar aligned. I'll fix that when I get back from Kelling as the Polemaster is at the bottom of the motorhome garage!

i haven't noticed any issue with the Polemaster adapter but I don't leave the Polemaster in as I need it for travelling.

As to the guiding, that looks like the issue reported on cloudynights. Have you tried contacting Ioptron support to see if they've got anywhere with a fix, or if they can supply a copy of the earlier firmware from 2016/17 that my 60ec is using? We've got several Ioptron mounts and we've always found them very helpful.

I'm hoping to actually do some imaging next clear night after spending last night running v-curves mostly.

Anne

Anne, this is not the first time this star issue has happened, it happens every single time. I have used handset and moved the mount manually and still see the star jump. Last night I was getting some help from a friend on using SharpCap for Polar alignment and he too noticed that. It's like something on the RA axis that is causing it to do that. I have been using PoleMaster for nearly 2 years and I've polar aligned in rubbish skies but never saw the star jump at this stage. 

Yeah the polemaster adapter comes with one thumb screw which doesn't seem to be holding the polemaster tight enough and will easily start rotating. The adapter has three holes for the thumb screws to hold the PoleMaster tight but it only comes with one. 

No I haven't contacted iOptron yet but there is no place to find older versions of firmware. Mine still is on the same firmware as it came out of the factory. I'm not big on using beta because it potentially has issues so I will hold off until there is a proper release but not sure I can live with a mount that doesn't guide for God knows how long. 

2 hours ago, fwm891 said:

Your obviously having problems. You've got your mount now pointing to polaris with Polemaster, have you tried to drift align the mount with PHD and ignoring polemaster? With my old iEQ 45 Pro Polemaster gave mediocre results.

Are your stars the same shape across the frame, longer one side/corner than the other.  Personally I think your PA is off line which may be due to the problems in locating the Polemaster adapter and securing Polestar itself in the adapter. Your PHD graph is not that bad, certainly those errors would be guided out.

I used PHD's drift align routine to set mine up because I can't see the pole star. That took a few iterations but it has been well worth it. I found the adjusters for azimuther awkward and used an allen (hex) key to allow small adjustments when I got near. If you try PHD's drift align don't be put off by the erratic movement of the dec line when you start the 'drift' measurement it needs 30 secs or so to settle and show its basic direction. Longer is better once your homing in of final adjustments. My CEM60 Standard is a pleasure now it's PA is properly aligned.

Good luck, it's frustrating when stuff doesn't live up to expectations out of the box. 

Francis

Cheers for your input Francis. No I haven't done drift alignment because I'm not familiar with the process (I know what it is but don't know how it's performed). 

Yes my stars are the same across the screen and change from sub to sub as my image drifts. 

As for guiding out the phd errors, that's the thing, the numbers are good but the graph doesn't look good at all. Both lines are on either side of the middle lines. 

I seriously am thinking that the normal CEM60 would've been a much better choice because even iOptron are having issues producing a firmware that makes this version of the mount work. I know I paid extra just to get rid of hassles but this mount has been anything but

[Ouroboros]

Sorry I can't be more help because I am not familiar with either PoleMaster or SharpCap.  

I just wonder whether it's worth trying a completely different type of polar alignment method (preferably an optical one) and then looking at your 5 minute subs. (Are they 5 mins?) 

Two obvious alternatives for PA come to my mind. Is there an inbuilt polar alignment routine using the handset and three-star alignment? The second is the EQMOD alignment routine. Both of these methods I have found will provide more-or-less round stars (on a windless night) for 5 minute guided subs.  Sufficient anyway for a telescope of 510mm focal length anyway.  Maybe your telescope has a longer focal length for which  0.8" RMS isn't good enough. 

Good luck. 

PS I must say looking at the "jump" you see in Polemaster (and I think you said SharpCap) I'd be inclined to susoect there's something wrong with the mount's tracking. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ouroboros

[souls33k3r]

1 hour ago, cotak said:

What is your OTA? It is balanced in all orientations of DEC? The belt and magnetically loaded worms results in a stretchy behavior if your OTA is horizontal balanced but has a vertical imbalance. It could cause similar behavior as what you see although usually it eventually catches up with a large overshoot.

Yes mate, my OTA is balanced in all 3 axis. I've been in the habit of balancing my scope like this for about 2 years. I checked and re-checked it twice. 

6 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Sorry I can't be more help because I am not familiar with either PoleMaster or SharpCap.  

I just wonder whether it's worth trying a completely different type of polar alignment method (preferably an optical one) and then looking at your 5 minute subs. (Are they 5 mins?) 

Two obvious alternatives for PA come to my mind. Is there an inbuilt polar alignment routine using the handset and three-star alignment? The second is the EQMOD alignment routine. Both of these methods I have found will provide more-or-less round stars (on a windless night) for 5 minute guided subs.  Sufficient anyway for a telescope of 510mm focal length anyway.  Maybe your telescope has a longer focal length for which  +/- 0.5" isn't good enough. 

Good luck. 

PS I must say looking at the "jump" you see in Polemaster (and I think you said SharpCap) I'd be inclined to susoect there's something wrong with the mount's tracking. 

I used to do the age old polar alignment routine by looking through the polar scope back in the day when I was doing visual but when I jumped in to AP business, I bought polemaster and never looked back. I've never had issues using PoleMaster in the past and expect the same. I am just not familiar with other methods so will leave them aside because that is just me adding to issues for now but will look in to them at a later stage when I don't have to battle the issues that I've been having

I'm not sure where the issue lies but there IS an issue and it's not helping whatsoever.

[Davey-T]

Commiserations me old mate, never used PoleMaster so can't help with that but would say that PA needs to be a fair way off to stop PHD guiding it out so may not be a PA issue.

Just PAing using the main scope parked up north and adjusting bolts to put Polaris in position as shown by any app, allowing for scope type, and using the camera onscreen image should get it near enough for PHD to produce round stars leaving a bit of field rotation between images.

It's worth getting your head round drift aligning, preferably using a graduated eyepiece to eliminate any computery stuff 

Dave

[souls33k3r]

17 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Commiserations me old mate, never used PoleMaster so can't help with that but would say that PA needs to be a fair way off to stop PHD guiding it out so may not be a PA issue.

Just PAing using the main scope parked up north and adjusting bolts to put Polaris in position as shown by any app, allowing for scope type, and using the camera onscreen image should get it near enough for PHD to produce round stars leaving a bit of field rotation between images.

It's worth getting your head round drift aligning, preferably using a graduated eyepiece to eliminate any computery stuff 

Dave

Cheers mate. Like I said, I literally am on the verge of falling out with this mount. I regret selling my NEQ6 now but at least it performed far far better than this mount. PA as suggested by PHD was 30-50 arc min off using pole master and slightly less when doing PA routine using sharpcap. I used to see drift with longer focal length but never saw it with the Esprit 100's 550mm FL which I'm seeing now. 

Drift alignment I'll start working on it once I've got the rest of these issues sorted out.

[Davey-T]

5 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Cheers mate. Like I said, I literally am on the verge of falling out with this mount. I regret selling my NEQ6 now but at least it performed far far better than this mount. PA as suggested by PHD was 30-50 arc min off using pole master and slightly less when doing PA routine using sharpcap. I used to see drift with longer focal length but never saw it with the Esprit 100's 550mm FL which I'm seeing now. 

Drift alignment I'll start working on it once I've got the rest of these issues sorted out.

Is Polaris in the main scope FOV ( parked up north ) when it says it's that far out ? don't know what FOV your camera scope combo gives but would have thought if it was as for out as reported you'd be lucky if it was actually visible in the main scope.

Dave

[Ouroboros]

1 hour ago, Davey-T said:

Is Polaris in the main scope FOV ( parked up north ) when it says it's that far out ? don't know what FOV your camera scope combo gives but would have thought if it was as for out as reported you'd be lucky if it was actually visible in the main scope.

Dave

Yes. As you said earlier, looking through the polar scope set to about the  right hour angle will get you closer than the 30-50 arc minutes measured by PHD2. 

[souls33k3r]

1 hour ago, Davey-T said:

Is Polaris in the main scope FOV ( parked up north ) when it says it's that far out ? don't know what FOV your camera scope combo gives but would have thought if it was as for out as reported you'd be lucky if it was actually visible in the main scope.

Dave

I didn't check through the scope but it sure was bang in the middle of PoleMaster camera. 

[alan potts]

From the poit of view of PA, a while back mine was said to be 14.6 minutes out and it guided out fairly well, that was PHD2 's Polar Drift and Guide Assistant.

Alan

[knobby]

Gutted for you Ahmed, I know nowt about Ioptron but unless your polemaster is moving on the mount it shouldn't jump like that ! 

[Davey-T]

I'd be inclined to forget PoleMaster etc to eliminate as much stuff as possible from the equation then do as I said and use your main imaging camera to PA with a PA app of some sort make sure you know which way is up and have camera aligned square to the sky, even better if you can use a diagonal and an eyepiece of 26mm or so.

Putting Polaris at position shown by a PA app in the main scope should be plenty good enough for PHD then if you still get dodgy stars it's down to something other than polar alignment.

Dave

[souls33k3r]

14 minutes ago, alan potts said:

From the poit of view of PA, a while back mine was said to be 14.6 minutes out and it guided out fairly well, that was PHD2 's Polar Drift and Guide Assistant.

Alan

When I used to do PA on my NEQ6 Pro mount, I was told that I was somewhere between 10 - 15 arc minutes out but my stars always used to come out fine. I did do guiding assistant at least 3 times in different part of the sky and at different times of the night but it didn't really solve my issue. 

7 minutes ago, knobby said:

Gutted for you Ahmed, I know nowt about Ioptron but unless your polemaster is moving on the mount it shouldn't jump like that ! 

Cheers Gary. I noticed polemaster moving within the adapter last time when I was out so knew for well that it does that so this time like I said above, I tightened it with force so that the only thumb screw that hold it down doesn't start to slip. Also I'm not sure if this adapter should come with three thumb screws or just one because if it was 3 screws (because it's got 3 holes so thinking that it's for adjusting the placement of the single thumb screw for easy access) that would make sense and would better hold the polemaster in place. 

I really am out of ideas now mate

27 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

I'd be inclined to forget PoleMaster etc to eliminate as much stuff as possible from the equation then do as I said and use your main imaging camera to PA with a PA app of some sort make sure you know which way is up and have camera aligned square to the sky, even better if you can use a diagonal and an eyepiece of 26mm or so.

Putting Polaris at position shown by a PA app in the main scope should be plenty good enough for PHD then if you still get dodgy stars it's down to something other than polar alignment.

Dave

Do you mean PoleMaster software or the camera altogether? I did use the polemaster camera with sharpcap which like I said showed me my PA was excellent. 

I think I can try doing Sharpcap using my guidescope (or main imaging scope if one can do that. Not sure but will have a chat with Alex as he's very much clued up with Sharpcap stuff). The way you're saying this, I'm sure I can align my main imaging camera squared to the sky. 

But truth be told I feel like there is a mechanical issue with the mount in RA otherwise there is no reason for the star selected to jump out of the line and then swing right back only to jump right off and then come right back. 

This issue might also relate to why my guiding is just pants unfortunately and why my image drifts. There's a massive thread on CN about the firmware issue which iOptron so far has been unable to fix but I don't think I have the patience any more given the amount of hours I've spent to take the mount out and set it up again to test. I bought this mount to image with less hassle but only to have more issues than just one of those nights very disheartened mate. 

[alan potts]

I just get the feeling there is something wrong with the RA shaft, that image from Polemaster looked very strange to me, as you said, it isn't like it's the first time you have set this up.

Alan

[souls33k3r]

7 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I just get the feeling there is something wrong with the RA shaft, that image from Polemaster looked very strange to me, as you said, it isn't like it's the first time you have set this up.

Alan

Exactly my thiught mate. I'm glad I made a video to show what's going on. And possibly could be the cause of a lot of the issues that I'm having. I will get @FLO to take a look at this thread as well and see what they think. 

[Davey-T]

Don't get too stressed out over it Ahmed, to quote Bill Shakespeare, the course of true love nor astro' imaging never did run smooth, you're young and can look forwards to many more frustrating nights so best to chill out if you can.

Dave

[souls33k3r]

4 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Don't get too stressed out over it Ahmed, to quote Bill Shakespeare, the course of true love nor astro' imaging never did run smooth, you're young and can look forwards to many more frustrating nights so best to chill out if you can.

Dave

Cheers for the kind words mate. The thing is that having a night to deal with issues which is clearly not something you've created are more frustrating than others. I do agree, there will be plenty more frustrations to come but as long as I know it's not my new gear I'd happily deal with them. Also most issues last for a session rather than soending days trying to sort. We hardly get clear skies and on those nights you want things to work. I've literally exhausted all my efforts trying to get this mount to work and unless I know I have a mount that will work, I'm not sure how I'll relax

[Davey-T]

Many years ago when I bought the iOptron iEQ45 it had problems from new and had to go back for repairs twice, the first time it was returned with the same fault, then later I rebuilt it with new bearings, HP worm and a few other mod's until it eventually performed as advertised.
Hopefully they've improved their QC but as you say new buggy software can play havoc with your imaging, I now use it solely for solar imaging and night time visual.

At least you have the assurance of FLO at your back 

Dave

[souls33k3r]

9 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Many years ago when I bought the iOptron iEQ45 it had problems from new and had to go back for repairs twice, the first time it was returned with the same fault, then later I rebuilt it with new bearings, HP worm and a few other mod's until it eventually performed as advertised.
Hopefully they've improved their QC but as you say new buggy software can play havoc with your imaging, I now use it solely for solar imaging and night time visual.

At least you have the assurance of FLO at your back 

Dave

Like Anne mentioned, there's a thread which I started on CN a while ago whether I should buy the CEM60 or the EC version which has morphed in to issues with the firmware. I stayed well away from doing any of the upgrades but clearly so many clever cogs are on it and have issues. I understand not nearly half of what those guys talk about but can clearly see that there is an issue with firmware. I don't even know what firmware I'm on but at least I know I haven't changed it. 

You've said it all Dave, at least I have the assurance of FLO brilliant customer service which is why I'm hopeful that my issue will be resolved. 

[alan potts]

I am sure FLO will sort it though some issues I have caused with my gear have foxed them .

Good luck Alan

[souls33k3r]

1 minute ago, alan potts said:

I am sure FLO will sort it though some issues I have caused with my gear have foxed them .

Good luck Alan

Cheers Alan. I have no doubt in my mind that they will. I will just have to wait for them to come online tomorrow because I wouldn't want to bother the good folks at FLO over the weekend