The Paramount, Astro-Physics, 10 Micron, Mesu mount showdown; please give feedback

[MakeItSo]

Dear Folks, 

I posted this question on CN and got really good feedback - but it was quite US-centric as expected; lots of AP and SB users. I am keen to have opinions from colleagues on this side of the pond (and hopefully get feedback which includes as much or more comment on 10 Micron, Mesu, ASA etc). 

I am looking for opinions from owners of these mounts on the following. 

1. How easy was it for you to set the mount up? If you are portable, this is obviously very relevant. If you are permanent - still relevant but less so. 

2. How easy do you find the software control of the mount? This may be a roll your own set of applications via ASCOM or for Paramount users for example, the SkyX package. 

3. Do you use your mount remotely i.e. is it fit for purpose as a remote system?

4. If you have had technical (either mechanical or software) issues, how good has the support been?

5. How do you rate the craftsmanship in the mount? I understand this is subjective, but on a previous, similar post in CN, some users expressed preferences regarding the actual build of the mount and how it contributed to the overall enjoyment of the mount. 

Many thanks for reading!

Edited August 17, 2019 by MakeItSo

[andrew s]

Paramount MEII

1 Very easy

2 Excellent (I can do automated high resolution spectroscopy with Python controlling 2 instances of TSX with 3 cameras plus mount , focused etc.)

3 Yes and Yes

4 Support is excellent including request for software enhancements. 

5 Excellent. Looks and works like a thoroughbred. 

Just works and is not fussy in any way e.g. about precise balance.

Some worm adjustment may be needed but not in my case.

Regards Andrew 

Edited August 17, 2019 by andrew s

[DaveS]

Unfortunately ASA have stopped making low capacity (<100kg), low cost (<£20k) mounts.

[MakeItSo]

Super, thanks...keep 'em coming. 

[DaveS]

The ASA mounts themselves are / were quite brilliant, but the software, oh dear . Autoslew, which controls the mount is fine, and is adequate for the job but Sequence is, as far as I'm concerned, Not Fit For Purpose. Only the basic pointing model maker and the multipoint pointing file work as advertised, the fancy sequence stuff always crashes with an Unhandled Exception Error involving the C++ library (As far as I can tell from the less than helpful debug file). The fact that it needs Maxim DL and PinPoint (Full versions of both) to work just adds the the pain. I now use Maxim to construct my sequences, while MLPT just about does the job of encoder guiding. @Waldemar and @Datalord also have ASA mounts so may be able to add more.

[andrew s]

@DaveS makes an important point. It is the combination of hardware, firmware and software that makes or breaks a mount. Excellence in one is easily negated by failure in one or other of the others.

Regards Andrew 

Edited August 17, 2019 by andrew s

[MakeItSo]

Interesting. The Paramount mounts seem to have an almost Apple-like closed system. I’m sure you can use other software with them but I’d be interested to know if Paramount users find this restrictive? 

[Davey-T]

10Micron GM1000HPS, easy to set up, 2000 comes in 2 halves so still OK for star parties etc.

Software excellent, none of that faffing about the Mesu owners have to do 😂 run mine wireless using the inbuilt mount hotspot.

Good custom PA routine.

Only downside is the need to do a sky model if it's not permanent setup, needs PA model first so this takes a while and can be annoying if there are passing clouds, quicker to PA a "normal" mount as long as you can see Polaris, on the other hand 10Micron doesn't need a view of Polaris to achieve PA and can be run unguided when passing cloud doesn't affect it.

A few members on here are running them remotely.

Had a couple of problems and had good support via Ian King / Baader / Comec.

Superb engineering.

It can easily do 30 minutes unguided if your skies support it. (110 f/7 refractor QSI683 )

Dave

Demo of 10Micron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfkQnZTFXzo

Thought of another downside, it needs Maxim DL to run a model.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Davey-T

[andrew s]

19 minutes ago, MakeItSo said:

Interesting. The Paramount mounts seem to have an almost Apple-like closed system. I’m sure you can use other software with them but I’d be interested to know if Paramount users find this restrictive? 

Not at all. It can be used with any ascom  compliant software or device. The Sky X object  model is available to roll your own (as I and others have) so it is as unrestricted as any other mount/software combination. Many addon session management software packages support TSX directly. 

You do have to control the mount with TSX but you can hide this if you want to. While some see this as a disadvantage it does ensure new features and bugs get fixed quickly.

I had an AP mount controller ( Parallax mount) and found a bug in the firmware for those of us at zero longitude.   It had still not been fixed several years later when I got an AP mount.

I asked SB to allow the Take Series to do VBR, VBR etc rather than all V then all B etc. to better serve photometery and now you can. 

Regards Andrew 

Edited August 17, 2019 by andrew s

[Waldemar]

As far as ASA mounts are concerned: I had a DDM60Pro and now I own a DDM85Standard. 

1. The DDM60 was portable and very easy to set up once I got my head around the software. The DDM85 is too heavy for portabillity, but basically the same. 

2. To run, balance and trim (PID) the mount, a programm called AutoSlew is provided with it, which is not really intuitive, but like I said once I got my head around it, it was a breeze. To control it a programm called Sequence is provided which I find not very handy  and it still got some issues. But The SkyX or SGP or any other programm or combination of programms works realy well. 

3. Yes, if you call working with it from the warm living room behind a laptop with an ethernet-usb extender, remotely...

4. I never had any technical issues with either ASA mounts

5. ASA mounts are incredibly solidly build and absolutely 'highest end'. Because of ASA's Direct Drive technique there is no PE, no backlash and an incredible accurate performance. 

6 hours ago, DaveS said:

Unfortunately ASA have stopped making low capacity (<100kg), low cost (<£20k) mounts.

I still have no idea what the new series will cost... ASA is not very open with information...

 

1 hour ago, DaveS said:

The ASA mounts themselves are / were quite brilliant, but the software, oh dear . Autoslew, which controls the mount is fine, and is adequate for the job but Sequence is, as far as I'm concerned, Not Fit For Purpose. Only the basic pointing model maker and the multipoint pointing file work as advertised, the fancy sequence stuff always crashes with an Unhandled Exception Error involving the C++ library (As far as I can tell from the less than helpful debug file). The fact that it needs Maxim DL and PinPoint (Full versions of both) to work just adds the the pain. I now use Maxim to construct my sequences, while MLPT just about does the job of encoder guiding. @Waldemar and @Datalord also have ASA mounts so may be able to add more.

 I agree with Dave about Sequence. SGP works absolutely great with ASA mounts.
ASA seems to be working on a very sofisticated programm that will do a far better job (they say)... I am very curious when it will be released.

[DaveS]

I don't want to quote him directly, but when Rupert delivered the DDM85 we had a long talk about mounts, cameras, etc and he was of the opinion that, because it's a simpler design, the DDM 100 might come in somewhere around the price of a DDM 85 Std. We talked about Sequence as well, and he mentioned the new version of Philip Keller was working on, but he had no more idea of when it was due, and Astrograph are a main dealer.

[ollypenrice]

 

Speaking as a robotic host I'll just say that no Mesu has ever been returned to the factory. 10 Micron have not done quite so well and we've never had a Paramount or ASA here.

Olly

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by ollypenrice

[mihaighita]

4 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

👹 Speaking as a robotic host, the penalty shoot-out on returns to factory stands at 4-0 in favour of Mesu...

Olly

And the sweet time they take while you send it back... 😇😇😇😇😇

[DaveS]

I just brought the DDM85 into the conservatory from the garage (The doors are kaput)

The bottom weights in at 25kg, the top at 19kg, and the CW shaft a little over 8. For reference, the 'scope on the right is a Skymax 180. A DDM60 is 19kg in its entirety.

Edited August 17, 2019 by DaveS

[steppenwolf]

MESU 200 SiTech version

1. How easy was it for you to set the mount up? If you are portable, this is obviously very relevant. If you are permanent - still relevant but less so.

Very easy indeed although the operation manual for the SiTech controller is somewhat overcomplicated so I wrote my own manual with pointers to the relevant pages in the official manual. I have used the mount very successfully in a portable scenario but it is now permanently installed in a remote observatory.

2. How easy do you find the software control of the mount? This may be a roll your own set of applications via ASCOM or for Paramount users for example, the SkyX package. 

Again, the software is a little quirky BUT very capable and feature-rich indeed. Once you have set the software up (a one time requirement), it can be controlled seamlessly using any ASCOM compliant software so the vast majority of the relative 'quirkiness' disappears.

3. Do you use your mount remotely i.e. is it fit for purpose as a remote system?

I use mine remotely and it is perfectly fit for purpose provided you are comfortable with plate-solving.

4. If you have had technical (either mechanical or software) issues, how good has the support been?

I have never had a breakdown but have had questions regarding the system in the early days as I was a relatively early adopter of the later SiTech-equipped version (as opposed to the original Argo Navis controlled version) and the company's response has always been impressive.

5. How do you rate the craftsmanship in the mount? I understand this is subjective, but on a previous, similar post in CN, some users expressed preferences regarding the actual build of the mount and how it contributed to the overall enjoyment of the mount. 

The craftsmanship displayed in this mount is exemplary and was a major deciding factor in choosing it. Everything is heavy duty and functional and it is clear that it is designed by an engineer rather than a marketing department!! I mean this in a good way - this is a well engineered system that has been designed to do a specific job very well without wasting time and money on pure aesthetics. I rate it VERY highly.

[tomato]

Please be aware the Mesu Mount to which Steve refers is no longer available to purchase new, a Mk 2 version has been released which is discussed here:

As a user of the Mk 1 version with Sitech,  I would agree 100% with Steve’s appraisal, I have used it as a portable mount for ~4 years, it is now going in a permanent observatory to take advantage of the zero set up time. 

[Datalord]

I'll post a +1 to all of what Dave and Waldemar said and say that the software part of the DDM is the weak link. Once I eliminated the horrible Sequence software, I have found this mount to be the closest thing to magic this side of Harry Potter.

Like Dave mentioned, they stopped producing 60 and 85, so only hope for one of those is second hand and I since I can't see myself ever selling mine, I would be surprised to see anyone else do it. It is crazy good.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Datalord

[Datalord]

3 minutes ago, Datalord said:

It is crazy good.

Case in point. Tonight's guiding session at 2400mm FL.

[MakeItSo]

This is great feedback. 

I signed up to the 10 Micron forum to try to understand the sorts of difficulties that are found with these mounts.  Didn’t know that the 10 Micron is basically a Linux computer. Linux is the standard in my field of research, but I have to say, I find it pretty awful and quite brittle (many of my colleagues disagree); it can be very unforgiving of simple mishaps like improper shutdown. I noted on my fairly superficial perusal that some 10 Micron owners have had difficulties with the mount following power outages. I may be jumping the gun here (and happy to be told that I am wrong) but is there any truth in the idea that perhaps the sophistication of the 10 Micron software/hardware and the fact that it is baked into the mount also means that there are more things that can go wrong?  As a relative novice to imaging, I would really like the mount to “disappear into the background” so that i can improve my skills. VERY happy to be told I am mistaken...

[tomato]

I can only speak for the Mesu 200 Mk 1, but in my experience this mount certainly falls into the ‘you forget it is there’ category.