the sun and the zodiac

[piff]

I have just been watching a DVD "explaining" how the sun moves through the  constellations of the zodiac during the year, starting with the statement "in January we see the sun against the background of the stars in Sagittarius" and continuing in this vein. I have read numerous similar accounts in various books so it is obviously fairly standard patter, but I have never been able to understood this.  I never see the sun against the background of any stars at all, because when the sun is in the sky they are all invisible. I know the stars are still there of course, but the point is, we cannot see them. So what is the point of saying "we see the sun against the background of the stars in such-and-such constellation? How are we supposed to be able to tell which stars are in the background when this background is wiped out by the glare of the sun?

[Stu]

Not sure it helps, and not sure totally about the reason behind your question, but you can see which zodiac constellation the Sun is in by using planetarium apps or software.

[piff]

But presumably the zodiacal system was devised long before "apps" or "software" existed? What is the reality behind the curious assertion that the sun moves against a background of stars when no such background is ever visible?

[Stu]

1 minute ago, piff said:

But presumably the zodiacal system was devised long before "apps" or "software" existed? What is the reality behind the curious assertion that the sun moves against a background of stars when no such background is ever visible?

Of course yes, but I assume the astronomers of the day knew enough about the position of the sun vs the background stars that they could tell where it was? 

[JamesF]

1 minute ago, piff said:

But presumably the zodiacal system was devised long before "apps" or "software" existed? What is the reality behind the curious assertion that the sun moves against a background of stars when no such background is ever visible?

I guess one can logically deduce that the Sun must move against a background of stars without having to be able to see them when the Sun is present, on the basis of the observations one can make when the Sun isn't present.  For example, if constellations X and Y are due east and west on the horizon at some point in the year, then one might argue that if X is south at night then the Sun must be in Y at noon.  Or something along those lines.

To say that we "see" the Sun against a background of stars is perhaps not the best choice of words in the circumstances, but perhaps not 100% wrong if you're sufficiently loose in your interpretation of what's meant by "see".

James

[michael8554]

This sounds more like an Astrology DVD.

(Seriously)

Michael 

 

[Paul M]

Knowing such stuff was a very important job historically.

Astronomy and astrology were indistinguishable only a few hundred years ago and those that studied and could predict the movement of the Sun, Moon and planets had great standing in society

Predict an eclipse and you were a king maker. And during a total solar eclipse it was possible to confirm just which constellation the Sun was in.

It still kind of connects to modern times. The point in the sky where the sun's path, the ecliptic, crosses from south of the celestial equator to north of it is the spring equinox and because it used to be in the constellation of Aries it was called the first point of Aries. However, just to complicate things the vernal equinox is now in Pisces due to precession of Earth's axis. Indeed all the Zodiacal constellations are out of step with the misguided and deceptive offerings of astrologers. 

So no, we can't usually see what stars the Sun is sat amongst but for much of human history its been a very important thing to know.

[cletrac1922]

piff

The attached link might help explain lot of things with respect to Zodiacs and the Sun

Just over 12 months ago, was in India, and visited Jantra Mantra site in Jaipur  

Considering was constructed in the early 1700's, site of scientific astronomical instruments

Has a 62ft high sun dial, and the face is carved out of marble, faces towards Polaris, and even today is accurate to 2 seconds

Another feature, was the zodiacs, and how the sun passes over each one, during the day

Has two dishes set in the ground, with constellations marked on it

One when sun is in northern hemisphere, other when sun is in southern hemisphere

Has a cross wire, with a small circular disc in the centre

As the sun or moon pass over, shadow is reflected, on the constellations

The attached pic of sloping sundial, is double sided depending in which hemisphere sun is located

Has a small steel rod, to cast shadow 

https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1338

There were actually four sites built northern India, and three still survive today

John

 

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by cletrac1922

[johninderby]

Wonder how many people realise there were 13 signs of the Zodiac originaly not just 12. Ophiuchus (the serpent bearer) is the missing one. 

[cletrac1922]

Has always been  a point of contention

[Geoff Lister]

With my birthday near the middle of October, my "star sign" is Libra, but, running Stellarium in annual steps forward from my day of birth, the Sun has remained close to Spica, well inside Virgo - go figure  🙄.

I also ran Stellarium back in time, and there was an obvious jump of Sun/background star position, from the top of the scales in Libra to the bottom of the left foot in Virgo, between 1581 (Julian calendar) and 1582 (Gregorian calendar).

Geoff

[MikeTe]

Even from the past, everyone knew that the sun has a big influence on us. The energy is changing our feeling, mood, and even destiny. You know I started to think more about this when one of my friends sent me this blog https://www.spiritualunite.com/articles/222-spiritual-meaning-you-should-know/. There I read a lot of things about the numbers and in general about the number "2". Can you imagine that numbers have a big relationship with the universe and they work together in order to help us with our problems. Now imagine what power has the sun...

Edited July 31, 2020 by MikeTe