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Synscan - can't manage to star align successfully


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Hi guys, already opened a thread about it a few months ago, but I simply can't seem to get my star alignment no matter what I try.

I'll start with a little background, I have synscan V3, latest firmware version(3.39.05), everything is set to to factory settings.

So the issue is that no matter what I do, I simply can't seem to get the alignment to work.

I'll describe the way I set up everything:

I start with setting up the mount to polaris, leveling the tripod, and then I do polar alignment. After finishing the polar alignment I set up the weights and tube, and making sure that everything is balanced.

After that I connect the synscan(using EQ5 btw), and set up everything according to 'SynscanInit', when I'm done setting everything I can see that the P.scope is as in the app, but the hour angle is 1 minute behind(not sure if that actually makes a difference).

So now I start the star alignment. I know that what I'm doing here is an exaggeration, but it should only make it better than worse.

I use 3-star alignment, after selecting the first star and let the scope move to wherever it thinks it should be, I manually move the tube to the star, as that shouldn't make a difference for the first star as far as I understand. I focus my tube on the object using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece, when the object is cenetered in the eyepiece I move on to the next one.

In the other 2 stars I do the same using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece but only by using the synscan.

So after finishing with the 3-star alignment, it says that the alignment is successful, but it's simply completely off.

I believe I forgot to mention a few things that might be relevant, but that is the general process.

Is it possible that somehow the synscan is 'broken' or something like that? Any ideas will be useful.

Thanks!

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3 minutes ago, Cornelius Varley said:

How much "off" is "completely off" ?  

Aiming to the ground around 30 cm's away from the target :)

Looks like a similar situation here: 

But I couldn't really understand what exactly the issue was(see Cloudwatcher and high25 replies).

Edited by msacco
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A factory reset might clear some erroneous data in the handset or try a 1 star alignment, unlock the clutches and centre on the star, retighten the clutches accept the alignment and then park the mount. Switch off and release the clutches and return the mount to the correct home position.

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1 hour ago, Cornelius Varley said:

A factory reset might clear some erroneous data in the handset or try a 1 star alignment, unlock the clutches and centre on the star, retighten the clutches accept the alignment and then park the mount. Switch off and release the clutches and return the mount to the correct home position.

What does "park the mount" means? And what actual difference should this make? I believe I tried something also identical but with no help 😕

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

Ensure the coordinates of where you are are correct, this caught me out once, they actually reversed themselves some how, I'm sure it was not me. Also check time is correct.

Unfortunately I made sure of it 200 times.

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Park the mount mean the scope slews to point at the Northern, in your case pole, then the normal thing is to turn off, mines parked in it now. If you do this and for whatever reason it does not point to the pole there is something very wrong. The other thing you can do is select different stars on the Align I again had a bit of an issue with this.

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21 minutes ago, Nigella Bryant said:

I alway's park my mount in home position when finished and unpark and then align, usually two star alignment is enough to put the object in the field of view. 

Are you properly polar aligned? 

Just what I was wondering, I use to set mine up every night from scratch and whilst PA is not critical for visual in needs to be reasonable. The other thing that I had a problem with which involved pointing was low battery power, so I went to mains transformer after that, that was on a HEQ 5 Pro

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1 hour ago, Cornelius Varley said:

"Parking" the mount using the menu option in the handset returns it to the home position. 

Your coordinates should be approximately 034 47E , 32 06N (Tel Aviv) , time zone +2.00

Oh, I see. Never actually heard of this option :)

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

Park the mount mean the scope slews to point at the Northern, in your case pole, then the normal thing is to turn off, mines parked in it now. If you do this and for whatever reason it does not point to the pole there is something very wrong. The other thing you can do is select different stars on the Align I again had a bit of an issue with this.

I'll try that, thanks.

59 minutes ago, Nigella Bryant said:

I alway's park my mount in home position when finished and unpark and then align, usually two star alignment is enough to put the object in the field of view. 

Are you properly polar aligned? 

I believe I am properly polar aligned. I've also heard that for observations accurate polar align is not as important, at least not in a way that should make it so off. Even though I'm fairly sure I am aligned well.

Does anyone have an idea on how can I try star align inside my room? I have EQ5 with SW 200p, which is not incredibly big but it does take time and efforts to disassemble and assemble. I probably won't have the chance to actuall go out soon with my telescope, so maybe trying it somehow in my room would be great.

Thanks!

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43 minutes ago, msacco said:

Oh, I see. Never actually heard of this option :)

I'll try that, thanks.

I believe I am properly polar aligned. I've also heard that for observations accurate polar align is not as important, at least not in a way that should make it so off. Even though I'm fairly sure I am aligned well.

Does anyone have an idea on how can I try star align inside my room? I have EQ5 with SW 200p, which is not incredibly big but it does take time and efforts to disassemble and assemble. I probably won't have the chance to actuall go out soon with my telescope, so maybe trying it somehow in my room would be great.

Thanks!

I guess you could use a polar align app on a phone or tablet then do a star align. Using skysafari pro6 if your mount has WiFi. If you use a WiFi adapter and skysafari you can see your scope slew to your align star on your phone or tablet. Skysafari pro6 is half price till 18th June I think around £5. WiFi adapter around £20 

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2 minutes ago, Nigella Bryant said:

I guess you could use a polar align app on a phone or tablet then do a star align. Using skysafari pro6 if your mount has WiFi. If you use a WiFi adapter and skysafari you can see your scope slew to your align star on your phone or tablet. Skysafari pro6 is half price till 18th June I think around £5. WiFi adapter around £20 

Since I live in Israel and I believe I don't have such accessories available, I'll need to buy online, and since I'm from Israel, the only reasonable places are aliexpress/amazon/ebay and such.

Do you think this would do the job:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ScanFi-SynScan-WiFi-adapter-for-wireless-control-of-SkyWatcher-ORION-telescopes/112714355611?hash=item1a3e4c939b:g:jIAAAOSwd5lckky0

It's pretty much way higher than £20 😕 Is there a cheaper way of doing that? Maybe making one somehow?

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I always use Home then switch off. Why do you move the scope on the first alignment by hand?? Never heard of that before, the encoders must be totally lost by now!!

I ALWAYS use the handset during alignment and only ever do a 2 Star align.#

No problems in 11 years!!

 

Ron

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22 minutes ago, msacco said:

Since I live in Israel and I believe I don't have such accessories available, I'll need to buy online, and since I'm from Israel, the only reasonable places are aliexpress/amazon/ebay and such.

Do you think this would do the job:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ScanFi-SynScan-WiFi-adapter-for-wireless-control-of-SkyWatcher-ORION-telescopes/112714355611?hash=item1a3e4c939b:g:jIAAAOSwd5lckky0

It's pretty much way higher than £20 😕 Is there a cheaper way of doing that? Maybe making one somehow?

I understand, it's not the same as mine but if it says it's for the synscan mount I guess it's OK. It does say it connects to skysafari. It's only to get WiFi from mount to your phone /tablet to use skysafari, etc. Other's will know how to build a WiFi unit, unfortunately I'm not that good at building my own, but I know others do. 

Edited by Nigella Bryant
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28 minutes ago, Ronclarke said:

I always use Home then switch off. Why do you move the scope on the first alignment by hand?? Never heard of that before, the encoders must be totally lost by now!!

I ALWAYS use the handset during alignment and only ever do a 2 Star align.#

No problems in 11 years!!

 

Ron

Its OK to release the clutches and manually move the telescope onto or near the first star and then complete the first star alignment using the handset. The handset doesn't actually precisely know where the mount is pointing until the first alignment star has been accepted. The real star alignment begins at this point.

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17 minutes ago, Ronclarke said:

Ok, but I will still use the handset as I have always done..😀

Nothing beats a winning recipe :)

I don't think that should be an issue in my case though. Any other recommendations maybe?

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I continue to struggle to understand how the Home Position can have any meaning on a mount that has not actually been parked there from a known position, i.e. already fully aligned when parked.

But anyway, my method seems to upset a few people and here it is  :)

My mount is stored away after every use and often gets disturbed so I don't use the home position.

1. plonk the mount and tripod out on the grass roughly aligned towards Polaris. Look through the polar finder. Get Polaris somewhere within the etched hour angle circle. Anywhere within does me fine. Mount the scope/counterweights and re-check that Polaris is within the finder circle, anywhere within :)

2. power up the mount, I have the GPS mouse which plugs into the handset and inputs time and location info automatically...Soooo lazy :)

3. select 3 star alignment and choose a nice easy star as first alignment star. Wait for the drives to stop.  It's rarely anywhere near the object but Synscan thinks it is so make it so! Undo the clutches and manually move the scope to get the object in the eyepiece , tighten the clutches and use the handset to center (use the handset all the way if you like, but don't undo the clutches in that case!). The mount now has a fix on the sky. 

4. select the second alignment star and the scope should now land quite near if not very close, it might just need the handset to center the object. Accept that.

5. select 3rd star. This should land virtually central in the eyepiece. Use handset to fine tune. Accept that and Synscan should (hopefully) congratulate you on successful alignment :)

I don't level the mount, no need with EQ mounts. I don't bother with Hour Angle, Synscan is very robust and for visual use HA is not needed. My polar alignment is exceptionally rough but Synscan is very robust and for visual use is very forgiving of Polar Alignment. 

I think I've only ever had one failed Synscan alignment and that was after trying to rotate the scope in the tube rings so I could get to the eyepiece during the process. 

Of course, you can refine the process and add whatever steps you so wish as your observing progresses. You'll be building on experience by then rather than foundering in over complexity. 

Final note; don't undo the clutches and move the scope manually once the 1st star is aligned; thereafter make all adjustments and movements via the handset.

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4 minutes ago, Paul M said:

I continue to struggle to understand how the Home Position can have any meaning on a mount that has not actually been parked there from a known position, i.e. already fully aligned when parked.

But anyway, my method seems to upset a few people and here it is  :)

My mount is stored away after every use and often gets disturbed so I don't use the home position.

1. plonk the mount and tripod out on the grass roughly aligned towards Polaris. Look through the polar finder. Get Polaris somewhere within the etched hour angle circle. Anywhere within does me fine. Mount the scope/counterweights and re-check that Polaris is within the finder circle, anywhere within :)

2. power up the mount, I have the GPS mouse which plugs into the handset and inputs time and location info automatically...Soooo lazy :)

3. select 3 star alignment and choose a nice easy star as first alignment star. Wait for the drives to stop.  It's rarely anywhere near the object but Synscan thinks it is so make it so! Undo the clutches and manually move the scope to get the object in the eyepiece , tighten the clutches and use the handset to center (use the handset all the way if you like, but don't undo the clutches in that case!). The mount now has a fix on the sky. 

4. select the second alignment star and the scope should now land quite near if not very close, it might just need the handset to center the object. Accept that.

5. select 3rd star. This should land virtually central in the eyepiece. Use handset to fine tune. Accept that and Synscan should (hopefully) congratulate you on successful alignment :)

I don't level the mount, no need with EQ mounts. I don't bother with Hour Angle, Synscan is very robust and for visual use HA is not needed. My polar alignment is exceptionally rough but Synscan is very robust and for visual use is very forgiving of Polar Alignment. 

I think I've only ever had one failed Synscan alignment and that was after trying to rotate the scope in the tube rings so I could get to the eyepiece during the process. 

Of course, you can refine the process and add whatever steps you so wish as your observing progresses. You'll be building on experience by then rather than foundering in over complexity. 

Final note; don't undo the clutches and move the scope manually once the 1st star is aligned; thereafter make all adjustments and movements via the handset.

Thanks for the detailed reply, unfortunately I'm doing all of that and more I believe.

I do perform an accurate polar alignment(spot on, or dot on in this case), I do 3 star align using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece(which from what I understand is incredibly not necessary), I also do exactly as you say, I only unclutch to the first star align and then the clutches remain locked.

The thing is after selecting the first star, the second star is way off, and so is the third star.

I really can't figure what I'm doing wrong. I've watched dozens of tutorials, read dozens of related articles, and still I can't seem to get it working.

The most annoying thing is that I actually have to go star gazing just to try that and fail. It's not like I'm not having fun with just manual(using the synscan still) gazing, but I just think I can achieve much more.

I'll ask again, does anyone have an idea how can I test my GOTO in my room?

1 minute ago, michael8554 said:

No, I don't, merely hinting you have enough suggestions already without complicating the issue with WiFi. 

Michael 

Totally agree :)

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31 minutes ago, msacco said:

 

I do perform an accurate polar alignment(spot on, or dot on in this case), I do 3 star align using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece(which from what I understand is incredibly not necessary), I also do exactly as you say, I only unclutch to the first star align and then the clutches remain locked.

The thing is after selecting the first star, the second star is way off, and so is the third star.

I'm baffled then! There is no indoor method of testing actual star alignment.  Once the 1st star is accepted the mount should just move the prescribed angular distances to the next object. Synscan drives the motors until the encoders arrive at the correct spot, so unless that object is in entirely the wrong place...., which makes me think of issues with your location and or time data. That was my motivation for getting the GPS mouse, remove a layer of potential errors on my part! :)

Edited by Paul M
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