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I also thing it is the matter of quantity - most sensors that are produced are for consumer products - phones, cameras, webcams, .... Technology for application of Bayer matrix is probably not separate from machine that layers semiconductors and builds the sensor on silicon. This means that separate machine is probably needed to build mono version of the sensor and volume dictates price.

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On the other hand, when I think about it, maybe application of Bayer matrix is indeed separate technology process, however, manufacturing might be fraction of the sensor cost, and other costs are adjusted per production volume (storage, transport, packaging, whatever - mono and color versions are separate products and probably have separate calculations of total costs).

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Could be because mono sensors have the pixels packed tight together whereas in colour sensors thay have gaps between the pixels? Cost of manufacturing perhaps?

Also as mentioned colour sensors have a much bigger market so economies of scale apply.

Edited by johninderby
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Marketing my friend - because astronomy users with deep pockets *are prepared to pay* for them.   Production costs have little to do with retail costs.  The difference in manufacturing costs will be almost nothing.

Edited by kirkster501
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16 minutes ago, kirkster501 said:

Marketing my friend - because astronomy users with deep pockets *are prepared to pay* for them.   Production costs have little to do with retail costs.  The difference in manufacturing costs will be almost nothing.

I kinda assumed they would be fleecing us. 

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4 hours ago, vlaiv said:

I also thing it is the matter of quantity - most sensors that are produced are for consumer products - phones, cameras, webcams, .... Technology for application of Bayer matrix is probably not separate from machine that layers semiconductors and builds the sensor on silicon. This means that separate machine is probably needed to build mono version of the sensor and volume dictates price.

 

3 hours ago, johninderby said:

Also as mentioned colour sensors have a much bigger market so economies of scale apply.

We asked the same question to a couple of camera manufacturers a while back. They both essentially said the same as vlaiv and johninderby, that it was due to economies of scale. Colour sensors are the norm and are manufactured in huge quantities whereas the market for Mono sensors is comparatively tiny. Am not saying it is true (though it does make sense). Only sharing what they said. 

HTH, 

Steve 

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I would think its more that they have to change their process as oppose to simply leaving a step out. 

With mono they still need to add micro lenses and AR coatings to the sensor, but those normally come after the filter matrix in the fabrication process. So I am guessing that they wont produce mono in the same batch / run as RGB. So the mono is a special additional run of sensors. 

If you look at the IMX183 mono it came out a couple of years after the OSC version. Probably for this reason exactly, the finished making OSC before they switched to producing a mono run. 

Also as there are less options for mono sensors they can ask more.  

ASI1600mm pro is a good example of producing a mono sensor on the cheap without altering your process, you end up with a micro lens diffraction pattern due to lack of appropriate broadband AR coatings. 

Adam

Edited by Adam J
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I think the sensors are the same until the Bayer layer.  As has been said the production process has to be stopped and altered to leave out the Bayer stage so mono is a separate production run.  From then it's a question of scale of sales.  Large production runs cost less per unit than small ones, hence items with lower sales are going to cost more.  Nothing to do with the customers' ability or willingness to pay the price.

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Not sure I agree Gina.  I don’t think the production cost differential is anything like as much as they’d like us to believe. They are happy to perpetrate this myth of higher production costs.  We were ripped off like this when CDs and DVDs were introduced. The quality of them required higher production costs we were told.  It was proven to be a marketing rip off and there was no such difference.  Of course, FLO and other dealers only pass their higher buy price from the manufacturers on to us so it’s not their fault. 

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5 minutes ago, kirkster501 said:

Not sure I agree Gina.  I don’t think the production cost differential is anything like as much as they’d like us to believe. They are happy to perpetrate this myth of higher production costs.  We were ripped off like this when CDs and DVDs were introduced. The quality of them required higher production costs we were told.  It was proven to be a marketing rip off and there was no such difference.  Of course, FLO and other dealers only pass their higher buy price from the manufacturers on to us so it’s not their fault. 

A lot of price differences have nothing to do with costs. Repairing a mercruiser marine engine a few years ago. Thermostat £43 in the mercruiser packet, exactly the same item with the same part number made in the same factory but with a box instead of a blister packet for sale in a motor factors £9. 

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Having spent all of my working life in design, production and sale of relatively small market though high margin specific electronic products, the answer lies in the route to market- base component costs aren't so much more than a mass market product, but intrinsic cost comes from the design, production, marketing and selling costs of a lower volume product. These costs are increased by a lack of sales competition e.g. can you find different selling, or even temporary promotional, prices for a given astro product? We have to accept that our interest lies in a small and specific sector and that means cost to us. In addition we like to have good service from our suppliers and that adds to the selling price.

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3 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

A lot of price differences have nothing to do with costs. Repairing a mercruiser marine engine a few years ago. Thermostat £43 in the mercruiser packet, exactly the same item with the same part number made in the same factory but with a box instead of a blister packet for sale in a motor factors £9. 

Just bought a new on / off switch for a Rubi tile cutter prices ranged from £17.00 to an eye watering £78.00 for the identical thing.

Dave

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There’s a huge difference between standard components produced by the million and that can be outsouced to the cheapest supplier and specialist electronics that are produced in small batches. True the cost of the actual parts themselves aren’t the bigest factor but when you are talking about low volume specialist production items the labour element is disproportionately high and anything that requires different steps has a effect on the final price.

Just a basic fact of life. Specialist low production run things cost more.

Edited by johninderby
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It is what it is and for mono we have to pay more.  Nothing we can do about it.  But it is a rip-off never the less IMO.

Stick an "astronomy" label on pretty much anything and you can double the price because enthusiasts will pay that price.

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3 minutes ago, kirkster501 said:

It is what it is and for mono we have to pay more.  Nothing we can do about it.  But it is a rip-off never the less IMO.

Stick an "astronomy" label on pretty much anything and you can double the price because enthusiasts will pay that price.

Welcome to the capitalist economy :)

James

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It’s a basic fact of business life that low volume specialist products require much higher prifit margins than high volume products if the company wants to stay in business. Now if ZWO sold a hundred million cameras a year then yes they would be a fraction of the price. However that aint going to happen anytime soon. 🙂

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I would expect the astronomy market to take up a trivial proportion of mono chip production. The main market will be in industrial and medical imaging I think - but it would be interesting to know the facts here.

Olly

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One thing that really stands out are the differences in replies by those that have been in business themselves and understand the realities of low volume specualty production and those that haven’t. It’s a different world to high volume big discount consumer products. The proffit margins of many specialist manufacturers, and in particular hobbyist equipment, can be surprisingly small and I know many just won’t believe that.

See banging your head against a brick wall. 

Edited by johninderby
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