Mini computers, ASIair....?

[fwm891]

I'm in the process or revamping the 'control side' of things. Currently I have been running cables (power and USB 2.0 -3.0) from the conservatory to the scope/mount on the patio which has not been without its connection problems. So as I'm getting ready to build a small observatory to have a more permanent set-up I'd also like to reduce/eliminate cables if possible.

I will be wanting to control an iOprton CEM60, Lakeside focuser, SX 825 camera and filterwheel, couple of Nikons, couple of ASI uncooled cameras, with other additions to follow I'm sure...

The ASI cameras (120MM & 178CM) are both USB 3.0, other kit at present are all USB 2.0 and are grouped through either a USB3.0 powered hub or similar powered USB 2.0 hub back via cables to the laptop.

Out of choice I run SG Pro for capture, pointing etc, PHD2 for guiding. I use backyard Nikon occasionally as it's simpler than setting up SG Pro especially if I'm only intending to shoot one target in a session. Plus CdC to see what's coming up of interest. I have Sharpcap and Fire Capture which I intend to get round to with the 178MC at some stage.

I'm thinking a mini computer/laptop would be the way to go as dedicated software can be loaded and run remotely. But is it the better solution or is there something else I should be looking at...

Reasoned suggestions please would be very helpful.

Francis

[souls33k3r]

Does it have to a mini PC? Is it going to be purely for image acquisition or processing as well? Can it not be a desktop or a cheap laptop if it's just for the image acquisition? Unless you're thinking of mounting the thing on the scope which is a whole different discussion.

At the moment i have 2 cables running out off of my mount, one is a power source to the power distribution, the second is a USB from power distribution back to my laptop. If i were to go down the mini PC route, i will only be eliminating one cable so should i bother? i opted not to. Just a food for thought.

[JamesF]

I'll follow this with interest.  I'm thinking of using a mini PC at the pier/on the mount with HDMI and USB connections back to the warm room so that all connections to the mount/imaging gear are short.  I've not come to any conclusions yet though.

James

[Yawning Angel]

I've been building up a PC at the pier solution, but in the back on my mind I'm tempted to go for a USB3 device server and just power that plus a USB hub at the scope, then just a single network cable back to the imaging PC. The device server can then present it's port('s) to any PC with the driver

[fwm891]

22 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Does it have to a mini PC? Is it going to be purely for image acquisition or processing as well?

No it doesn't have to be a mini PC. I was reading a post by Sara Wager in another thread where she has ditched her mini computers in favour of a Dell desktop. Which has prompted this thread as to their suitability for astro control/capture.

It's just for storing captured images, flats, darks, bias etc and running SG Pro, PHD2 etc., close to the scope but with an ability to 'see' what's happening remotely - circa 8 mtrs away without cables running between observatory and conservatory...

Transfer of images will most likely be via camera card at the end of a session.

Image processing will be carried out in the house on my main desktop PC.

[souls33k3r]

24 minutes ago, fwm891 said:

No it doesn't have to be a mini PC. I was reading a post by Sara Wager in another thread where she has ditched her mini computers in favour of a Dell desktop. Which has prompted this thread as to their suitability for astro control/capture.

It's just for storing captured images, flats, darks, bias etc and running SG Pro, PHD2 etc., close to the scope but with an ability to 'see' what's happening remotely - circa 8 mtrs away without cables running between observatory and conservatory...

Transfer of images will most likely be via camera card at the end of a session.

Image processing will be carried out in the house on my main desktop PC.

I think you've answered your own question here

Teamviewer if your friend  

[GraemeH]

I have 2 mini PCs - one on each of my two mounts.  They run APT, PHD2, ASCOM and associated mount and focuser drivers, Sharpcap and Stellarium without coming under much stress.  I have them set up to attach to my home WiFi and access them through Windows Remote Desktop from indoors.  They are set to save images from my DSLRs to my OneDrive folder, so I can check the subs on my main PC without affecting anything during capture.

I previously tried using a USB device server instead of a mini PC, and whilst it worked for the connection to the mount and my DSLR, I couldn't get anything from my guide camera (QHY5Lii).  I suspect the device server simply wasn't able to cope with the bandwidth required for the guide camera.

I find it extremely convenient to be able to head straight indoors after completing polar alignment and then get on with capturing images from my warm comfortable sofa.  I realise that might make me something of a lazy imager, but I can't see the attraction of spending hours outside in sub zero temperatures.

[JamesF]

Yes, I'm inclined to think remote viewing would work better for Francis than me, partly because he's further away and partly because I want the option of high frame rate imaging, which is probably easier managed by "exporting" the HDMI and USB connections to the warm room.

Do you have a link to Sara's comments about remote PCs, Francis?  Sounds like it would be worth a read.

James

[JamesF]

Which mini PCs do you have, Graeme?

James

[GraemeH]

Hi James,

I bought one of these https://plater.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008852269094/pdtl/Mini-PC/1162987701/Mini-PC.htm in 2017 (bought from Amazon but it's no longer available there) to test the concept.  More recently I added one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FXDW41T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 for my other mount.

Performance wise they are very similar.  I slightly prefer the first one just because of its slightly smaller size, but the second one has more RAM and a slightly faster processor which I think is the reason that it's slightly faster for plate solving.

Graeme

[simondodd]

Heya,

I'm currently using an old laptop outside running APT & PHD2 and log into it using teamviewer from the sofa inside.

I am currently making the transition to having a raspberry pi running astroberry server out on the mount with just a power cable going into a box and then the cables to the mount and cameras come from that box to keep everything tucked away.

Haven't quite got the software working properly yet but it's my D5000 with the separate remote shutter cable thats causing the headache (it always has)

It might be worth looking into Astroberry although if you've never touched linux before then it may be a bit too much of a headache...

[alacant]

Hi we used one of these for a while but it's a pain when something goes wrong and you have to connect it to a screen:(

More often than not we now use a laptop, it's quicker to just connect everything to one hub and then the hub by a single lead to a laptop. We got a cheap Dell from eBay with 16Gb and put in an ssd. Running Indi under Ubuntu, it's got enough clout to use your 'phone or tablet to TeamViewer or vnc into it to see and control whats happening remotely, even if you're not home. Download your images to it at the telescope and then bring it inside to do the processing. No fiddling with sd cards or transfers from one box to another. 

HTH

Edited May 8, 2019 by alacant

[Wiu-Wiu]

Sounds a lot like my setup - except for the observatory (but I'm thinking of some sort of roll off shed). 

I opted to use asiair as I often take my gear out to dark locations

- camera control: check

- Guiding: check

- Dithering: check

- possibility to use autofocus is coming, and I heard they confirmed Polar Alignment yesterday.

- local storage of images: check

- no laptop or mini pc at the pier (and thus no need for extra power) : check

- Telescope control (goto/platesolving/Skysafari sync): check

All remote on the tablet from the comfort of my home - but thruth commands me to say it is not that far away. 8 meter should work. 15 meter is too far.

 

I do have a mini PC/powerhub (EAGLE ripoff) but I have still to figure that one out (it was given to me). For the moment I have no need for it.

[GuLinux]

I typically use an Intel Compute Stick (or equivalent), with USB3. I used a Raspberry Pi in the past, but they are way too underpowered, download time extremely long with a full frame ASI camera.

As for the software, I'll just leave this here... https://astrophotoplus.gulinux.net/ (working on autoguiding support at the moment)

[Skipper Billy]

21 minutes ago, GraemeH said:

I have 2 mini PCs - one on each of my two mounts.  They run APT, PHD2, ASCOM and associated mount and focuser drivers, Sharpcap and Stellarium without coming under much stress.  I have them set up to attach to my home WiFi and access them through Windows Remote Desktop from indoors.  They are set to save images from my DSLRs to my OneDrive folder, so I can check the subs on my main PC without affecting anything during capture.

Ditto - works like a charm.

 

 

[don4l]

I've been playing with this side of things.  I don't have a complete solution yet, although I am down to fine tuning.

 

Last night was my first "live" trial.

The system was a Linux laptop at the mount.  This had a 4 port usb hub plugged into it.  An SBIG6303e camera,  EQ6 mount, ZWO 120mc, and a Robofocus were all connected.  These were all handled beautifully by an INDI server. 

Accessing the equipment can be done locally or remotely.  For local control, I used KStars, EKOS and Cartes du Ciel.  All of this was easy to install and configure.

I can also access the system from anywhere with a network connection.  At the simplest level, I can use remote desktop from inside the house.

I also can use an INDI client (CCDCiel) from anywhere that is networked.  For the network, I have used both wireless  and I have also run a Cat5 cable out to the mount.  Both work seamlessly.

 

This all sounds very complicated, but has turned out to be much simpler to implement than I expected.

I bought a Raspberry Pi3+ starter kit a couple of weeks ago (£59.00), and used it to try everything out.  The Pi just doesn't move data quickly enough to be practical for handling large image files, but it does offer a cheap way to investigate this stuff.  Installing on the laptop was easy after using the Pi.

I hope that this makes sense. 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by don4l

[scitmon]

For what its worth, here is my current setup:

[simondodd]

22 minutes ago, don4l said:

...The Pi just doesn't move data quickly enough to be practical for handling large image files, but it does offer a cheap way to investigate this stuff....

Intresting to see this... How come the ASIAir and Stellarmates use a Pi if they aren't up to it speed wise...? 

[fwm891]

1 hour ago, JamesF said:

Yes, I'm inclined to think remote viewing would work better for Francis than me, partly because he's further away and partly because I want the option of high frame rate imaging, which is probably easier managed by "exporting" the HDMI and USB connections to the warm room.

Do you have a link to Sara's comments about remote PCs, Francis?  Sounds like it would be worth a read.

James

About 4 or 5 replies down...

[wornish]

I have recently installed a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and 12V power distribution in a homemade box on my mount together with a powered USB hub.   I run Astroberry software on the RPi which then lets me use INDI software to control my mount, cameras, focuser and guiding remotely via WiFi.  It is powerful enough to run PHD2 guiding as well on the mount so no need for rapid transfer of files back to a remote computer and I can control PHD2 via any web browser.  I then use KStars/Ekos on my indoor host laptop to control the whole setup.  The RPi3B+ is perfectly capable of transferring the main image file after each exposure ( ~32MB each) as these are typically created one every 300 secs, so no big load.  I am not sure if it could cope with planetary imaging though as that creates a lot more data.  

So I have ended up with 12V power being the only physical connection required.  It was quite a learning curve to get to grips with it all, but it does work.  It's just different, and a big plus is it's Free.

Edited May 1, 2019 by wornish

[stash_old]

Some info

1. Controlling a mount ,focuser,guiding and f/wheel does not take any processing power at all - RPI3 and other cheap mini's etc are more than up to the job.

2. Using a DSLR even on a PI3b+ is no problem if you use the Ethernet port(preferred) or use 5GHZ Wifi (depending on your coverage) - 30mb+ CR2 image files can be auomaically downloaded ,if required, in 5-9 secs.  A poor Wifi signal is normally a problem no matter what kit you use. Using fast CCD/CMOS camera's and large ROI are a complete no no, IMHO, on a RPI3b+ but many do use this route - you would IMO go route in Step 3.

3. Any sort of real time / post processing or fast USB3 Camera's (CMOS/CCD) would mean a more powerful Mini - look on SGL for Noah4x4 who is ,IMHO, at the extreme end where he does very high real time HD or higher quality displays. Then you are talking about  I5/I7 (or equiv) processing plus large SSD and 16GB memory and most likely 12v-19v 5amp power supply. This is not cheap approx £500 after all the bits. 

4. Remote access is better done over wired cabling as it is consistently the same speed and ,especially with 2.4ghz band , not prone to interference. This can be 100m away and you can use external quality cable which is not expensive or  std CAT5/6/7 cabling in ribbed conduit - especially is Squirrels/Rats are about. This of course depends on access from you conservatory to your Obsys and the MOST IMPORTANT BIT - your partners permission ? LOL. Remember you wont be changing your network much so go with the best at the start.

You could do a bit of both - use a small mini/RPI located on top of your mount but automatically download the images to a Obsys located Desktop/Laptop (cheap I7 with SSD and 8GB+ memory 2nd hand for under £170) the Desktop could also have all you software required to control mount/Camera's/FWheels/Focuser with longer USB/Mount cables at the ready so if things go wrong you can just switch a couple of cables and hey presto you are off again. Else you can do you post processing on it when things are running normally.

Think longer term, think what if things go wrong , how important not losing a clear night is to you. If your answer is "dont care" - stick with a desktop/Laptop located in your Obsys (my "spare" and old set up sits in an under floor compartment already to go) not on your mount use a very good quality USB3 powered hub so you only have one long USB cable and live with the couple of extra power cables.

 

Please remember whatever remote option you do BACK IT UP - its not so bad on the likes of RPI as you can have a couple of SD cards that allows you  to update one (after backing up to another) but have the comforting thought of the 2nd SD card to you quickly  back up and running - How many clear nights have you lost or been interrupted due to an update or change.  It does get more involved if you have a large SSD.

[don4l]

23 minutes ago, simondodd said:

Intresting to see this... How come the ASIAir and Stellarmates use a Pi if they aren't up to it speed wise...? 

I don't know much about the ASIAir or Stellarmate. 

I did some tests with the Pi, and the results were surprising.

Download speeds from the camera varied from 40 seconds, up to 1m33s for a single 12Mb image.

I did various tests, some with Wireless Ethernet, and some cabled up.

Cabled up performed better than wireless.

Even when using cables, there was a difference if the Pi's Wireless was enabled.  It looked as if the Pi was affected by any wireless traffic in the vicinity.  A friend has suggested that the Pi uses a single "bus" for all data movements.  This is entirely in keeping with what I saw.

Download to the Indi server on a Laptop is 25s, Indi on Pi - 40s,  CCDSoft on Windows - 17s.  

Once you are imaging, this isn't a huge overhead, but if you are finding, focusing and rotating, then it would add a significant amount of time.

 

 

 

[wornish]

I am not 100% certain about the ASIAir but the Stellarmate does, in fact, use a Raspberry Pi.  I think the ASIAir uses an ARM processor of similar power.

Some people seem to be trying out the latest Rock processor which is more powerful and has USB3 ports built in, but I am not sure what version of Unix it runs so software becomes a potential issue.

[JamesF]

14 minutes ago, don4l said:

Even when using cables, there was a difference if the Pi's Wireless was enabled.  It looked as if the Pi was affected by any wireless traffic in the vicinity.  A friend has suggested that the Pi uses a single "bus" for all data movements.  This is entirely in keeping with what I saw.

This is consistent-ish with my understanding.

I believe all RPi variants have a single controller for both USB and (wired) ethernet, so trying to transfer high volumes of data across both at the same time results in contention and slower speeds.

The RPi3 wifi controller however is separate, so it shouldn't interfere so much with USB throughput.  But wifi probably isn't as fast as wired in the first place.

I have read that the RPi3 (not the RPi3+) and below can actually get better wired network throughput by putting a USB3 GigE adaptor in a USB port instead of using the standard one, but I've no idea how well that will work if you're also receiving high volumes of data from another USB source.

James

[JamesF]

10 minutes ago, wornish said:

I am not 100% certain about the ASIAir but the Stellarmate does, in fact, use a Raspberry Pi.  I think the ASIAir uses an ARM processor of similar power.

Looking at the photos of the ASIAir on FLO's site, it even has the RPi logo on the top of the (standard RPi case), so I'm fairly sure it's an RPi.

James