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Posted (edited)

Is the Universe rotating?

Since we cannot see it's center or objects beyond it how can we say it is not itself rotating as most everything in it that we know of is?

So really four questions, is it? and how we might know? And what other means are there to make measure it is not or is if indeed we can determin it is not or is and how those conclusions might be made?

I know this question has been asked before so in this post I ask more than just the basic question...

Edited by SIDO
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Are you asking if everything in the universe is rotating around its centre (whatever that might be) or if it is intrinsically rotating irrespective of its contents?

If the former, my guess is that it probably is, in the same way that separated galaxies will rotate around each other. Why would superclusters (or super-dooper clusters of superclusters) of galaxies do so as well? The problem would be determining where its centre is?

If the latter, I suspect this is a question that has no meaning. If there were only a single particle in the universe, could it be said to be rotating or not? Rotation is in relation to something else.

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There is no evidence that it is rotating.  If it were there would be a preferred direction defined by the axis of rotation which would show in the CMB and none is seen.

Regards Andrew 

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Hmmm, my own thoughts:

1) Does it have a centre? Universes are not like most other things in that they don't have to have centres. The surface of a sphere has no centre. (The sphere does, but not its surface. No point on the surface is more 'central' than any other.)

2) If there are objects beyond it, it isn't the universe. (To be more precise, if there are objects beyond it which share its system of dimensions then it isn't the universe. If 'beyond' means outside its system of dimensions then 'rotate' has no meaning since 'rotation' must be specific to one set of dimensions.)

3) If it is the universe and there is nothing beyond it (as defined above) then relative to what would it be rotating? Can something rotate relative to nothing? Imagine a universe containing nothing but a single particle. Can it move? Can it rotate? For Newton it could move relative to a space he considered to be absolute but in general relativity there is no absolute space. This brings us to Mach's principle. Go there if you dare! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach's_principle

:BangHead:ly

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, andrew s said:

There is no evidence that it is rotating.  If it were there would be a preferred direction defined by the axis of rotation which would show in the CMB and none is seen.

Regards Andrew 

I tend to agree with Andrew on this, if the universe were spinning it would do so on a particular axis and this would impart a tell tale pattern on the CMB.  There has been various studies which have searched for such patterns and none have been found; the cmb appears stubbornly uniform.   So it looks like our universe is not spinning.  We can stop holding on tightly now :) 

 

ps Lovely question SIDO :) 

 

Jim 

Edited by saac
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Posted (edited)

I got interested in these questions while out doing static eaa with my daughter, we were hitting galaxies in Ursa Major and Canes Venatici and when we got to M63 I decided to do multiple passes on the chip to show her more of the galaxy's details  and she said "wow...amazing that a black hole drives all that motion and holds all those stars in place around it" letting the statement go  by just saying "yes it is isent it" but it's not that simple really and the black hole is not working alone as the central mass of the galaxy adds to the mass of the black hole thus it's not just the black holes gravity but the combined mass and the matter location densities of galaxies that play a large part in consert with their black holes gravity. So after some thought and a little reading I began thinking like Demonperformer were gravity might play a much larger roll on a universal scale as the central core of the Universe does not need to be a solid object but only a more compacted arrangement of objects and if this is the case then there must be rotation as with out it a Universe like this would collapse in on itself.

So might we not see rotation in the CMB just because we are looking at an ultra tiny section of the Universe and to see it might need measurement on larger distance scales which can't be done because we only can measure what can be seen?

With nothing relative outside or inside the Universe to gauge motion we might simply never know and with no eventual consequences to this motion or an awareness of it relativity does not exist in this regard either.

As usual I have more questions than answers...

 

Edited by SIDO

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Demonperformer said:

 

If the former, my guess is that it probably is, in the same way that separated galaxies will rotate around each other. Why would superclusters (or super-dooper clusters of superclusters) of galaxies do so as well? The problem would be determining where its centre is?

 

Well said, the problem is we can only look back to the beginning of the Universe So time itself is the barrier that shrouds everything beyond or the rest of the Universe, I could blame it on the slow speed of light too I guess...

Edited by SIDO

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22 hours ago, andrew s said:

If it were there would be a preferred direction defined by the axis of rotation which would show in the CMB and none is seen.

Valid point. The only thing I would wonder about is: the further from the centre of rotation, the slower the speed of rotation (the earth revolves around the sun at roughly 110000 km/hr, Neptune only at about 20000). Is the rate of rotation so slow by the time we get to cmb that we do not have the means of measuring such an amount at such a distance? I should emphasize that I know of absolutely no evidence to support this thought.

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4 hours ago, SIDO said:

So might we not see rotation in the CMB just because we are looking at an ultra tiny section of the Universe and to see it might need measurement on larger distance scales which can't be done because we only can measure what can be seen?

This.

I'll have to find another cause for my dizziness...

...cheers

Paul

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, clarkpm4242 said:

This.

I'll have to find another cause for my dizziness...

...cheers

Paul

That wasent the puzzle piece I was looking for nor was it an "answer" regarding the CMB, neither a link not a lead not even logic but comedic and sarcastic...Ideals left aside ?

Nice to meet you Paul...

                  Freddie.

Edited by SIDO

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Posted (edited)

See arXiv:1605.07178v2 for a  more up to date paper which increase the constraint on rotation by an additional order of magnitude. 

Regards Andrew 

Edited by andrew s
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