New mount suggestions

[SyedT]

3 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

Thanks for the heads up SyedT, much appreciated. I have a Pegasus UPB any way so will be using that but I am interested in knowing if your mount was from the days of CEM60 getting the bashing or was it one of the recent models (less than 2 years old?). Besides. The USB hub fiasco, any other issues? 

Some days I wish I could just ditch everything and go for an Avalon mount and be done with it

I got it second hand about 8 months ago, and I think it's one of the later models. It performs fine, and is pretty compact. The thing to get used to are the magnetically loaded switches; they have to be tightened gently and then slackened a tiny bit otherwise there's some horrible binding. It's very quiet when tracking, and even slewing at max speed is pretty quiet.

I got it as part of a package deal so I thought I might as well try it out after initially considering selling it. It's lighter and smaller than my Avalon Linear, although the Avalon wins in terms of quality and day to day consistency. For me, the practical aspect of carrying it in and out and storage space is more important, which is why the Avalon is now up for sale.

Edited April 19, 2019 by SyedT

[Jkulin]

Morning Ahmed, Thought I'd add in my experiences..

I have had a number of mounts and my last Skywatcher an AZ-EQ6-GT was to me not in the same league, the backlash was awful and for a relatively expensive mount was not the best performing, I never really got tight stars.

I bought an iOptron CEM60EC to replace it, WOW is the best way to describe it, my first night using it was a piece of cake, it just worked perfectly and never missed a beat, my RMS error on some nights was below 0.3 depending on the seeing, I loved that mount and wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

As for balancing, it is very easy, the reason why it appears to be so critical is because it is so free moving than the SW, with the clutches slackened off it just floats whereas the SW was so much stiffer and therefore appeared to be balanced when in fact it might be miles off.

Indeed when the CEM60EC first came out there were loads of moans, none with relation to build quality but due to software, it took them about a year to fix and it is now a true performer and you'll only find good things to say about it.

Sadly my one developed a fault and after it went back a couple of times, I was offered the chance to upgrade to the new 120EC, I could have had a brand new replacement 60EC, but the looks and potential performance increase persuaded me to upgrade.

Now going back to what I said above, I knew the 60EC had initial problems when first launched and my mate who has a 120EC was having a number of software issues as did @RayD so I purchased with an open mind knowing that they would be resolved.

First night in and sure enough the guiding on the 120EC was not impressive, so I applied the Firmware update and suddenly it was excellent. Certainly on par with the 60EC and on clear seeing nights I'm getting around 0.2RMS error.

So yeah iOptron do rely on customer feedback for the development of their kit, which can be very frustrating, but they do listen to feedback and work tirelessly to fix, the 120EC hasn't been out in proper distribution yet for more than a year, and the promises of firmware updates in the pipeline are good to hear.

iOptron as a company offer superb technical support and have always replied to my emails and are easy to call for support if you have free international calling like I do, otherwise you are reliant on the UK distributor, in my case Ian at Altair whom I received excellent support and service and yes he did answer the phone ?

If you have the money Ahmed to its a no brainer decision.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Jkulin
typos

[Jkulin]

8 hours ago, SyedT said:

As much as the USB ports seem like a bonus, don't rely on them. I've had constant issues with connections being dropped, as the hub is not powered. I ended up getting a powered USB port which works well. 

Yep, for that reason I never used the built in hubs and just use the Pegasus UPB, even with the powered hubs on the 120EC I prefer to still use the UPB

8 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

Thanks for the heads up SyedT, much appreciated. I have a Pegasus UPB any way so will be using that but I am interested in knowing if your mount was from the days of CEM60 getting the bashing or was it one of the recent models (less than 2 years old?). Besides. The USB hub fiasco, any other issues? 

Some days I wish I could just ditch everything and go for an Avalon mount and be done with it 

The issues were never with the mechanical or build quality, just software, so if you can find a secondhand one then a quick firmware upgrade will bring it up to spec with current models. In fact if a secondhand one came up after my bank balance recovers, then I would buy one for my mobile imaging as they really are quite light.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Jkulin
Added info

[Rainer]

Quote

Also the encoder on RA axis and not absolute so i'm not sure how unguided imaging is possible. The RA will keep on correcting itself and then only axis you have to worry about is the Dec. That's how i've understood the EC mount so far.

Hi,

Interesting how stubborn the  Urban Myth of encoder and  unguided imaging stays in this Hobby.

Be it an absolute or an incremental encoder the only purpose of this is to kill the Periodic Error = PE nothing more nothing less.

The pointing accuracy of course get better as you something onto which you can measure your movement e.g. distance traveled.

I personally do not see an advantage of an absolute encoder in our hobby. I was working for more then 15 years with two Losmandy G11 mounts and the only encoder where those for the servo motors in order to keep the correct speed and a possible  positioning but what can you expect from a little dicd with lineprinting and a diameter not bigger then 16 or 17mm ? Not much. Every time I shut them down or the power was interrupted they knew exactly where they were. Of course opening the clutch and moving by hand was prohibited. You lost then everything and needed to make a manual homing. Nowadays not necessary as they have homing sensors.

Now the big marketing hype for using absolute encoders is " your mount will always know where it is ",. OK the incremental also know it. Question: Just because you have absolute encoders you will be playing around all night opening the clutches, moving the axes and tighten the clutches and then go to the object and so on and so on ? Just for fun and so justify the price difference you paid for it ? If yes, then ok get a mount with absolute encoders. Not even Planewave on their mounts have absolute encoders. They also use a separate sensor for homing.

Now coming back to unguided imaging hype with absolute encoders. OK, you have set up your mount and Polar Aligned as good as you can. Now you tell the mount with absolute encoders to go to RA XXh XXm XX.Xm and DEC XX° XXm XX.Xs and the mount with the absolute encoders goes to that position (absolute encoders are coded for that and have  coding for each position as fine as possible and the rest is interpolated by algorithms and now you take an image and wonder why is my object NOT in the center. Very easy and because of your not perfect Polar alignment. That easy are fooled the absolute encoders.

So now you center the object and you take an image now and it is centered and then you take an image in an hour and again it is not centered, you think WTH is goin on, I ahve absolute encoders and the mount should stay put oin the object, nice thinking but again you Polar alignment summed up with atmospheric refraction has moved the object to a new position but your absolute encoders are sitting exactly on your coordinates A XXh XXm XX.Xm and DEC XX° XXm XX.Xs as they were told, but no, the object moved due to PA and AR ... and so you will always need a feed back and that feedback can only come from a camera imaging the part of the sky and at start you marked the position of the object with X axis XYZ pixels and Y axis XYZ pixels and now when the object changes the pixels position you read it and command back the mount so the object is in X = XYZpixels and Y=XYZ pixels.

Think of your car with electronic steering aid. From time to time you need to correct your track on the M5 ... ?

What is the advantage of encoders. You just have to keep on the right track your mount and that can happen every 10, 20 or 30 seconds (I am doing it like that as I have two CEM 120EC2) and have learned to thing now outside the box and send one guide PING every XX seconds instead of inside the box every 2 or 3 max 4 seconds depending of the worm period and PE. The encoders take care of PE and not having encoders the guiding has to take care of PE and right track.

For correcting PE you do not need absolute encoders. Absolute encoders do also have a track for purely incremental measuring.

Think about it

Rainer

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Rainer

[cotak]

Been using my new CEM60EC for two nights during the full moon for testing it out. It is pretty darn awesome. The same 5 minute subs are better than the ieq45 pro managed and that mount typically lives around 0.5-6 total RMS under guiding. The interesting thing is the CEM60EC also is in that range but the image appears better. Of course I was using very aggressive guiding settings to get the ieq45 pro to such low RMS and in the CEM60EC the settings were only for correcting polar alignment/refraction and for when the SCT mirror moves.

I am quite happy with it. I am running the qhy163C off it's own USB3 connection that doesn't use the cable management system. Although, iOptron manuals actually state you are free to remove the polar scope and add your own through the mount wiring so I might consider that path. The rest of the setup runs over the USB2 built into the CEM60EC and I have not had any issue. I actually put 2 USB hubs right at the top of the pier to help terminate the cable lengths so that I have shortest cable length off the OTA. If you don't do that you might find you accidentally exceed USB cable length especially for USB3.

For the EC vs non-EC debate I suppose the non-EC CEM60 is more than good enough but for me the EC just removes that last part of worrying about PE and guide settings. And it really was not that much extra compared to what people spend on the expensive brands. I would not in the near term consider unguided setup because there's just a lot of work and my Edge 8 is not the ideal OTA for such a setup. Even then I think there are advantage to the EC like being able to use longer exposure for guiding during galaxy season.

Speaking of guide exposure if you use a flexy flippy OTA like my Edge then you really can't expect to use very long exposures. I was staying around 5s to get enough SNR and also still active enough to correct for less than perfect polar alignment and any mirror movements.

Built quality wise there was a recent online post where someone's new CEM60 had scuffs in the paint. Mine's perfect. Actually I think the design and built quality is more than fine baring the more laxed than luxury brand mount QA acceptance bar. 

One thing to note. I got the worm removal/adjustment PDF from iOptron. This mount is built in a way that make doing some work hard, like inspecting the worm/wheel grease and replacing it. In contrast the ieq45 pro was a dream for working on. On the 45 you just pop off two plastic covers and all the bits you typically need to work on is right there.

 

 

[DaveS]

@Rainer

My DDM60 has incremental encoders, the DDM85 incoming has absolute encoders. Neither use them to correct PE as there is none in a direct drive mount. Both guide on their encoders and a sky model, I've seen RMS error below 0.1" over a 2 hour run.

[Rainer]

3 hours ago, DaveS said:

@Rainer

My DDM60 has incremental encoders, the DDM85 incoming has absolute encoders. Neither use them to correct PE as there is none in a direct drive mount. Both guide on their encoders and a sky model, I've seen RMS error below 0.1" over a 2 hour run.

Hi,

 

Right but there has to be difference at those prices ... ?

DDM85 and EQ6-R and CEM 60  ?

Did not find the DDM85 but found the DDM100 and read they use encolders for " ... excellent tracking ..." 

?

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Rainer

[souls33k3r]

Sorry about the late reply guys, its been a busy few days off from work and trying to keep the young ones entertained. 

I appreciate you all chipping in. 

Call me a noob but I'm trying to understand what PE actually is. I know what it's called but what does it do? 

what do the encoders actually do and let you achieve? 

I will still be guiding (guidescope or maybe an OAG) so is the EC version still the wisest choice or the non-EC? 

Currently I'm doing 5 min subs on Esprit 100 and limit myself to 3 min subs on EdgeHD 8 (reduced to F/7) and would like to guide both at 10 min subs. Which version of CEM60 mount will be better and why? 

Sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions but I really don't understand this new technology (or the lack of keeping up with it) and am seriously lost here.

Thanks in advance. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by souls33k3r

[Rainer]

1 hour ago, souls33k3r said:

Sorry about the late reply guys, its been a busy few days off from work and trying to keep the young ones entertained. 

I appreciate you all chipping in. 

Call me a noob but I'm trying to understand what PE actually is. I know what it's called but what does it do? 

what do the encoders actually do and let you achieve? 

I will still be guiding (guidescope or maybe an OAG) so is the EC version still the wisest choice or the non-EC? 

Currently I'm doing 5 min subs on Esprit 100 and limit myself to 3 min subs on EdgeHD 8 (reduced to F/7) and would like to guide both at 10 min subs. Which version of CEM60 mount will be better and why? 

Sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions but I really don't understand this new technology (or the lack of keeping up with it) and am seriously lost here.

Thanks in advance. 

Hi,

Pe is periodic error and it comes due to the fact that the outer circumference of the worm is slightly eccentric against the rotation center of the worm axis. So what happens then is that the worm has a different speed angular peed at the touching point of the worm gear. TThe highest point of the wormhas a high speed and the lowest point of the worm has a low speed. So the worm gear has sometimes a high speed and sometimes a low speed and that gives you a sinusoidal curve. The height of the curve is dependent of the size of the eccentricity.

Now the encoders measure in real time the speed of the worm gear and correct it to the selected tracking speed. According to this the guider does not need to correct the PE but only has to correct the drift of the star be it due to Polar Alignment or atmospheric refraction. 

Encoders do not make obsolete gu ding but make guiding more comfortable. I am guiding sending a guide ping every 15 seconds to my mounts.

Is it worth or is it not worth ?

For me it was worth ... 

You will have to ask yourself if US $ 1.310,00 (~ GBP £ 1.000,00 + VAT in UK) is worth for you or not, but the worst thing is that you will never know if it was worth or not.

You can not deactivate the encoder on a CEM 60EC. Either you have encoder or you do not have encoder built into the mount. So no way to find out afterwards.

If you have the US $ 1,310.00 get it ...

I have two CEM 120EC2 and the encoders where worth every cent (Europe and Mexico) or penny (USA) ... 

Attached two graphs for a guide session over 2h 30m.

One is the RMS and the other one is the GuideError

As always just my opinion. Others may have other experiences.

Rainer

[souls33k3r]

5 minutes ago, Rainer said:

Hi,

Pe is periodic error and it comes due to the fact that the outer circumference of the worm is slightly eccentric against the rotation center of the worm axis. So what happens then is that the worm has a different speed angular peed at the touching point of the worm gear. TThe highest point of the wormhas a high speed and the lowest point of the worm has a low speed. So the worm gear has sometimes a high speed and sometimes a low speed and that gives you a sinusoidal curve. The height of the curve is dependent of the size of the eccentricity.

Now the encoders measure in real time the speed of the worm gear and correct it to the selected tracking speed. According to this the guider does not need to correct the PE but only has to correct the drift of the star be it due to Polar Alignment or atmospheric refraction. 

Encoders do not make obsolete gu ding but make guiding more comfortable. I am guiding sending a guide ping every 15 seconds to my mounts.

Is it worth or is it not worth ?

For me it was worth ... 

You will have to ask yourself if US $ 1.310,00 (~ GBP £ 1.000,00 + VAT in UK) is worth for you or not, but the worst thing is that you will never know if it was worth or not.

You can not deactivate the encoder on a CEM 60EC. Either you have encoder or you do not have encoder built into the mount. So no way to find out afterwards.

If you have the US $ 1,310.00 get it ...

I have two CEM 120EC2 and the encoders where worth every cent (Europe and Mexico) or penny (USA) ... 

Attached two graphs for a guide session over 2h 30m.

One is the RMS and the other one is the GuideError

As always just my opinion. Others may have other experiences.

Rainer

Cheers for the very good explanation Rainer.

Actually it's £900 difference between non-EC and the EC version. Still a massive jump. One could argue, you can buy a brand new mount for that price difference. Not cheap though. 

I see you have the 120EC2 versions which is a totally different beast (beefier and encoders on both axis). I appreciate your knowledge and your input but do correct me if I'm wrong, you've not experienced either the CEM60 or CEM60-EC correct? If so then the milage from your mount to the cheaper 60EC which only has RA axis may differ and whilst your experience with the bigger brother has been awesome but would the same be true for the much cheaper version? 

I was reading up one of the threads on CN by someone called Chris I believe and when he spoke to ioptron to find out about encoders and their reply was "If you're guding then you don't need the mount with encoders", that has seriously thrown me off. 

[cotak]

There are options on CN regarding encoders being not needed, but the folks on CN also tends to be very stuck in their old ways.

It's really not that hard a question, but there are a few factors to consider as always with mounts.

You don't need EC if:

1) You have large image scale. So you get 0.2" rms improvements but if your were at > 1" image scale that means little. Someone on CN actually increased the instability on his CEM60 DEC guiding to make the stars round. Personally, that seems like cutting of your head to avoid zombies eating your brains. Why not get the improvements with EC to enable not screwing up your DEC to match RA to get rounded stars?

2) Money is tight. Well few of us have unlimited wealth and the EC is expensive. I don't tell my wife and my bonus this year was sufficient to cover it with money to spare.

3) You enjoy guiding tinkering. There are folks like that out there.

You might want (noticed not need) the EC if:

1) You are going to try for small image scale. I do a lot of stuff at 0.54" and I need to really grab the ieq45 pro by the neck to guide it in a way that keeps the values down for rounded stars. This includes higher guiding rates and faster exposures.

2) You hate it when guiding goes south for no reasons you can understand.

3) You want the better PE specs iOptron offers. Yes the CEM60 has a good PE spec on paper but iOptron will let a mount leave the factory as long as the peak to peak is within the spec, even if there is a spike that's going to be hard to guide out. With the EC they are going to hold to 0.3 or less RMS.

[RolandKol]

I would ask myself one more question, - Will I be happy with a mount which produces "good enough" results, or... Will I start looking for even better one later on?

If NEQ6 was a "Good Enough" threshold and you went selling it for a better mount anyway... You need EC version... probably... And even Mesu200 later... unfortunately...

Edited April 23, 2019 by RolandKol

[souls33k3r]

4 hours ago, cotak said:

There are options on CN regarding encoders being not needed, but the folks on CN also tends to be very stuck in their old ways.

It's really not that hard a question, but there are a few factors to consider as always with mounts.

You don't need EC if:

1) You have large image scale. So you get 0.2" rms improvements but if your were at > 1" image scale that means little. Someone on CN actually increased the instability on his CEM60 DEC guiding to make the stars round. Personally, that seems like cutting of your head to avoid zombies eating your brains. Why not get the improvements with EC to enable not screwing up your DEC to match RA to get rounded stars?

2) Money is tight. Well few of us have unlimited wealth and the EC is expensive. I don't tell my wife and my bonus this year was sufficient to cover it with money to spare.

3) You enjoy guiding tinkering. There are folks like that out there.

You might want (noticed not need) the EC if:

1) You are going to try for small image scale. I do a lot of stuff at 0.54" and I need to really grab the ieq45 pro by the neck to guide it in a way that keeps the values down for rounded stars. This includes higher guiding rates and faster exposures.

2) You hate it when guiding goes south for no reasons you can understand.

3) You want the better PE specs iOptron offers. Yes the CEM60 has a good PE spec on paper but iOptron will let a mount leave the factory as long as the peak to peak is within the spec, even if there is a spike that's going to be hard to guide out. With the EC they are going to hold to 0.3 or less RMS.

Cheers mate. Lots to think about but the good thing is that I'm in no rush at the moment so will decide appropriately and maybe I might save up a bit each month for the difference on EC version so the spend doesn't sting as much

25 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

I would ask myself one more question, - Will I be happy with a mount which produces "good enough" results, or... Will I start looking for even better one later on?

If NEQ6 was a "Good Enough" threshold and you went selling it for a better mount anyway... You need EC version... probably... And even Mesu200 later... unfortunately...

That's a million dollar question. When I first got in to this hobby I thought I've got all what I'll ever need and 2 years down the line I'm now seeing the old me in the past and laughing my head off at his thinking. Boy was I so wrong! I've spent more than double that already ?‍♂️ One thing is for sure, I'll never be going down the Mesu route because I'll never be able to first justify the spend and secondly will never have the payload. If this new mount serves me well, I'm "hoping" I'll keep this for the next 10 years.

[souls33k3r]

I always do my reading before making a decision, some call it research but i call it justification of the spend.

I've found so many horror stories around the CEM60-EC version that it is putting me off this version. The one that tops the list is the guiding issues that users have been getting. One of the more recent threads is https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/654236-phd2-will-not-play-nice-with-my-cem60ec/?hl= cem60ec 

I only know @Jkulin who has had his CEM60-EC mount and rates the whole experience so high that you want to buy it, then from one of the other threads and i believe (and sorry for tagging) @Anne S has the CEM60 mount.

I do plan on going OAG at some point in the very very very near future as well. Just throwing random words out there in a hope to catch some traction to see if any of it can be an issue.

[alan potts]

Don't have one yet but I am very tempted by the 120 version as I would like to stick my LX 200 12 inch on it as well as lighter scopes. Just don't know enough about these encoders yet ( and they are not cheap)  in all fairness even FLO don't. I am looking at spending early next year. I like the looks of the CEM 60 Im sure it would be a good mount.

Alan

[souls33k3r]

@alan potts, there's a massive hype behind this mount and i believe for good reasons too. From what i've seen that CEM60 got a negative press in it's early days but then they sorted those issues out but then starting from mid last year (only going by CN threads because there's very limited knowledge around on SGL) i'm only seeing guiding issues and people ready to rip whatever hair they've got left on their head. I might be safe because i don't have any but nonetheless the issues are there. Not sure what's what now. 

[Anne S]

30 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

I always do my reading before making a decision, some call it research but i call it justification of the spend.

I've found so many horror stories around the CEM60-EC version that it is putting me off this version. The one that tops the list is the guiding issues that users have been getting. One of the more recent threads is https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/654236-phd2-will-not-play-nice-with-my-cem60ec/?hl= cem60ec 

I only know @Jkulin who has had his CEM60-EC mount and rates the whole experience so high that you want to buy it, then from one of the other threads and i believe (and sorry for tagging) @Anne S has the CEM60 mount.

I've got the ec version too.

[souls33k3r]

2 minutes ago, Anne S said:

I've got the ec version too.

Oh ok, i stand corrected

Any issues with guiding so far? you using guidescope or OAG?

What's the maximum FL you're using?

[alan potts]

I tell you something I recall from a chat with Olly, the early model had a tendency to bounce something like my M/N 190mm, a scope where there is a heavy lump at each end. Olly put me off buying the one on the market then (6year ago) because this spring loaded drives cause bounce effect and big problems with this type of scope, maybe it would be fine with a refractor. I am sure they will have sorted that out now, but I understand you doing research as you say, they are not free with Cornflakes.

Alan

[souls33k3r]

3 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I tell you something I recall from a chat with Olly, the early model had a tendency to bounce something like my M/N 190mm, a scope where there is a heavy lump at each end. Olly put me off buying the one on the market then (6year ago) because this spring loaded drives cause bounce effect and big problems with this type of scope, maybe it would be fine with a refractor. I am sure they will have sorted that out now, but I understand you doing research as you say, they are not free with Cornflakes.

Alan

True that Alan but then you also see people get on these forums to have a moan and keep it to themselves when everything is working fine for them. 

[Anne S]

2 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Oh ok, i stand corrected

Any issues with guiding so far? you using guidescope or OAG?

What's the maximum FL you're using?

I haven't had a chance to use it properly yet. That probably won't happen now till August, I'll be doing solar on it this summer. My maximum fl will be 1370mm though mostly it will have a dual scope setup on it once I get going with it. I normally use a finderguider though I should probably use an OAG for the ritchey chretien. I have polar aligned it ready.

[souls33k3r]

1 minute ago, Anne S said:

I haven't had a chance to use it properly yet. That probably won't happen now till August, I'll be doing solar on it this summer. My maximum fl will be 1370mm though mostly it will have a dual scope setup on it once I get going with it. I normally use a finderguider though I should probably use an OAG for the ritchey chretien. I have polar aligned it ready.

Cheers Anne for your input. Much appreciated

[ollypenrice]

37 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I tell you something I recall from a chat with Olly, the early model had a tendency to bounce something like my M/N 190mm, a scope where there is a heavy lump at each end. Olly put me off buying the one on the market then (6year ago) because this spring loaded drives cause bounce effect and big problems with this type of scope, maybe it would be fine with a refractor. I am sure they will have sorted that out now, but I understand you doing research as you say, they are not free with Cornflakes.

Alan

This was the original design of iEQ45 with spring-loaded anti-backlash gears. I didn't find these very convincing after moderately protracted use because they slackened off badly and became springy. I think iOptron dropped the system entirely from the 45 range but am not sure.

I do think, as Dave said earlier, that iOptron do too much beta testing on the customer but I've read good reports of the CEM60 in its present state. Truth is, a good EQ6 is quite a good mount and may be better than an unknown EQ6 variant! I'd look carefully at the CEM60 if I were in the market for a mount at this price.

Olly

Edited April 23, 2019 by ollypenrice

[Rainer]

17 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

I see you have the 120EC2 versions which is a totally different beast (beefier and encoders on both axis). I appreciate your knowledge and your input but do correct me if I'm wrong, you've not experienced either the CEM60 or CEM60-EC correct? If so then the milage from your mount to the cheaper 60EC which only has RA axis may differ and whilst your experience with the bigger brother has been awesome but would the same be true for the much cheaper version? 

I was reading up one of the threads on CN by someone called Chris I believe and when he spoke to ioptron to find out about encoders and their reply was "If you're guding then you don't need the mount with encoders", that has seriously thrown me off. 

Hi,

Right but encoders are encoders and it does not matter where they were built in. It is a question of carrying capacity what you are mentioning now.

Encoders do not care about weight on the mount and they do not need to care about it. Encoders do correct the periodic error.

Look iOptron has now 4 mounts with encoders and they are

CEM 25EC

CEM 40EC

CEM 60EC

CEM 120EC

The encoders are there for correcting PE and they do it.

No I do not have experience with an CEM60EC but a friend in Mexico has a CEM 60 and a CEM 60EC and he is happy with both. Of course he bought first the CEM 60 adn then the CEM 60EC. Why ? I have not asked him.

If you stay in the carrying limits of each mount the encoders will work and if you put more then the limits the encoders will also still work trying to compensate anything which is moving the axis but then the mechanical flexibility will play a mayor role in the efficiency of the encoders and how well the motors can react to the correction signal product of the encoder correction.

Again encoders do not care about carrying weight they only they care of the PE in the same way as the encoders in a car do not care the type of car anfdif it is a Limousine or a SUV when pout in for maintaining a constant speed on the M5 ...

Again the big problem here is that people still think that encoders do magic and guiding get obsolete and I guess this Urban Mytrh will stay until the " The Day of Judgement "

OK, do you want a suggestion ? If you have the GBP £ 900.00 and it does not hurt you spending them, get it with EC ... If you are not convinced then do not get it ...

Rainer

Edited April 23, 2019 by Rainer

[Rainer]

1 hour ago, souls33k3r said:

I've found so many horror stories around the CEM60-EC version that it is putting me off this version.

and I have found a lot of horror stories too about every mount brand. A guy owning a 10micron ( just US $ 12,000.00 in the base model) mount is now without it since 3 weeks, had to ship ti for repair and the culprit is a defect of an electronic board and this electronic boards can only be made by 10micron ...

If you base your decision on horror stories better look for another hobby ? Just kidding ...

Rainer