Soul Nebula DSLR, 3hrs but no nebulosity?

[Notty]

I am back to attempting AP after many years hiatus due to work, having gone quickly (too quickly) from a DSLR to a mono CCD with wheel, NB filters etc, realising I was out of my depth, selling said equipment and doing nothing for years.  Work has changed and now I have a bit more time, and I've gone back to a DSLR (my EOS 6D, unmoved).  Like everyone else I had a good couple of nights this week, but I'm disappointed in my results and I'd like your opinions.  There are lots of extremely good pics around of this object shot through a DSLR without the aid of Ha etc.

I live in what I assume to be a very LP suburban area.  I shot about 3 hours of data (50 x 240 secs, stacked the top 85%) through my ED80DS+Baader Neodymium filter, and for the first time since starting AP I was a good boy and also shot a full set of calibration frames; flats, darks, flat-darks and bias.  All stacked in DSS and processed in Startools.  So is 3hrs not enough time to capture the nebulosity through an unmoved DSLR? On initial stretch in ST the image is hugely red... I understand red means LP.  My working theory is that the cleaning routine in ST removes some nebulosity along with the LP, but I'd be grateful for anyone's opinions. Thank you.

 

 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

I'd say that's a good result for an unmodded camera from a light-polluted area, my unmodded 6D picks up very little Ha compared to my modded 1100D. I don't think StarTools is necessarily to blame here, separating fainter nebulosity from LP is always going to be challenging. It's possible there is more hiding in the stack, might be worth posting it to see if anyone else can coax it out.

[Notty]

Thanks Knight.  Interesting what you say as someone else told me their 6D unmodded was more sensitive than their old 1100d modded!  I actually used to have a modded 1100d as well, shoulda kept it never mind!  I was also wondering about one of those 2" Ha filters as I'm loathe to mod my 6D as I use it all the time for terrestrial.  Maybe I'd be better off just getting another modded DSLR!  

Well in case anyone fancies a challenge here's a link to the stack https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxsqkcrf559xllu/Soul Stack.TIF?dl=0

 

 

[Adam J]

33 minutes ago, Notty said:

Thanks Knight.  Interesting what you say as someone else told me their 6D unmodded was more sensitive than their old 1100d modded!  I actually used to have a modded 1100d as well, shoulda kept it never mind!  I was also wondering about one of those 2" Ha filters as I'm loathe to mod my 6D as I use it all the time for terrestrial.  Maybe I'd be better off just getting another modded DSLR!  

Well in case anyone fancies a challenge here's a link to the stack https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxsqkcrf559xllu/Soul Stack.TIF?dl=0

 

 

Yes, use the right tool for the right job, I would get a cheap modified camera for astro work instead of using the unmodified 6D. Something like a 450D, 550D or 600D is fine for getting started. 

Adam

[Knight of Clear Skies]

26 minutes ago, Notty said:

Thanks Knight.  Interesting what you say as someone else told me their 6D unmodded was more sensitive than their old 1100d modded!

I haven't done a proper side-by-side comparison, having only used the 6D from a fixed tripod so far, but I haven't found much ha when playing with the histogram.

Going back to the original image, personally I think it would benefit from backing off on the saturation a little and bringing the left hand of the histogram down a touch, I think the background is suffering a bit from trying to bring out the Ha.

[ollypenrice]

Good for a standard camera. If you have Photoshop try going to Selective Colour and, in the reds, move the top slider left to lower the cyans in red. This is a great booster of Ha!

Olly

[Notty]

Thanks guys, Olly I will see if I can achieve the above in Affinity Pro... Startools is great in so far as I am following someone's workflow without a detailed understanding of the settings for each function.

[Knight of Clear Skies]

I like StarTools as well. I generally flail around in it without a good understanding of what I'm doing.

[happy-kat]

I use StarTools too though it prefers the autosaved fits file from DSS there are preferred settings to use.

[Knight of Clear Skies]

36 minutes ago, Notty said:

Thanks guys, Olly I will see if I can achieve the above in Affinity Pro... Startools is great in so far as I am following someone's workflow without a detailed understanding of the settings for each function.

Could you post a link to the workflow you are following please?

[happy-kat]

I'll have a play tomorrow and see what I come up with.

[jjosefsen]

Hi,

Tried a quick smash in PI, and this is what I got. There is not a lot of signal there unfortunately.. I think a modified camera would improve this a lot, or try another target that is more suited to an unmodified DSLR.

My suggestion would be to go for something like M78 in Orion, which is a reflection nebula. Another option is one of the many galaxies starting to appear now, like M51 or M81 / M82.

[happy-kat]

The neodymium filter may have effected the ha??

[Notty]

18 minutes ago, Knight of Clear Skies said:

Could you post a link to the workflow you are following please?

This was kindly written by Ivo (author of Star Tools) a few years ago when I was struggling getting to grips with ST.  I've followed the exact same processing steps but varied the settings in each one slightly where I thought it had a positive effect but without really understanding what i was doing!  It was a very noisy stack of not very much data without decent calibration.  I think my data set is better here so I used Autodev but that's the main deviation from below.

--- Bin
Trades resolution for noise reduction (for more information on why you would want to bin when using a DLSR or OSC,read here).
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 50.00%)/(400.00%)/(+2.00 bits)]
This also gets rid of the bayer pattern.
--- Crop
Cropping away stacking artifacts.
Parameter [X1] set to [122 pixels]
Parameter [Y1] set to [52 pixels]
Parameter [X2] set to [2125 pixels (-20)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [1409 pixels (-19)]
--- Wipe
Default parameters, bumped up Dark Anomaly Filter, just in case there are any dark artifacts (dead pixels, dust specks) in the data.
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [6 pixels].
Wipe will now have calibrated your data and the individual color channels, removing bias, gradients and light pollution.
--- Develop
Normally, I would use AutoDev for the stretching with a Region Of Interest (clikc & drag). However, in this instance the data is very noisy and I decided to use Develop instead.
Parameter [Digital Development] set to [79.21 %] by clicking on the "Home In" button a few times.
--- Deconvolution
The data is really too noisy for deconvolution, even with binning. It's so noisy in fact that the Auto Mask generator has a hard time detecting any stars vs noise. Nevertheless I persisted creating a mask (Auto, Stars preset, exclude red, let it do its thing, Grow a few times and Invert the mask - we need gaps where the stars are) to prove a point; thanks to StarTools' Tracking feature even noise-sensitive algorithms like Decon can autonomously decide when something can be enhanced or not. Other software will just create artifacts and/or exacerbate noise.
You may see a very slight improvement in the definition of the trunk.
--- Wavelet Sharpen
Using the same mask, again proving the same point as above.
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [10 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [15 %]
Parameter [Amount] set to [375 %]
Again, you may see a very slight improvement in the definition of the trunk.
--- Life
This is a need trick to push back the busy star field a bit and give more emphasis to the larger scale nebulosity.
Make sure to "reset" (e.g. select all pixels) the mask (Mask, Clear, Invert).
Isolate preset.
--- Color
StarTools takes color very seriously (seehereandhere), because (correct) coloring is an extremely important aspect of astrophotography if you wish to convey more information about objects in your image to your viewers.
I used the default color calibration that StarTools came up with by default. We can see it reduced the red *a lot*. Much more than is typical - I'm still wondering what caused this skew in the red channel... (is your DSLR modified?)
I set Parameter [Cap Green] set to [To Yellow] to remove any trace of green coloring (green dominance is very rare in outerspace, except in areas of strong O III emissions).
I further set Parameter [Dark Saturation] to [8.00] to introduce coloring in the dark areas.
You will/should notice a good, roughly even distribution of star colors, ranging from deep red, orange, yellow to white and blue.
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Switching Tracking off, StarTools will now use its data mined information about nois grain evolution to perform extremely targeted noise reduction.
I set Parameter [Scale 1] to [83 %] because sometimes i like a bit more fine grain noise in my images (JPEG compression doesn't like it much though).
Parameter set to [20 %] to reduce color mottling.
Parameter [Grain Size] set to [6.0 pixels]

[Notty]

7 minutes ago, jjosefsen said:

Hi,

Tried a quick smash in PI, and this is what I got. There is not a lot of signal there unfortunately.. I think a modified camera would improve this a lot, or try another target that is more suited to an unmodified DSLR.

My suggestion would be to go for something like M78 in Orion, which is a reflection nebula. Another option is one of the many galaxies starting to appear now, like M51 or M81 / M82.

Thanks for that, I really like it especially the way you've isolated the red from the actual nebula from the surrounding space, which was what I have been trying (and failing) to do.  I don't think I'll be taking on PI anytime soon though unfortunately, I guess I'm always going to be a casual hobbyist much as I'd like to become an expert!  Like you say lack of signal... I guess I genuinely expected more after that much integration but maybe it is a function of the unmodded DSLR.  Emissions targets are a real issue for me due to surrounding obstacles; galaxies are in view but through an ED80 I'm only going to get tiny ones compared to my old reflector... which I sold!

[jjosefsen]

1 hour ago, Notty said:

Thanks for that, I really like it especially the way you've isolated the red from the actual nebula from the surrounding space, which was what I have been trying (and failing) to do.  I don't think I'll be taking on PI anytime soon though unfortunately, I guess I'm always going to be a casual hobbyist much as I'd like to become an expert!  Like you say lack of signal... I guess I genuinely expected more after that much integration but maybe it is a function of the unmodded DSLR.  Emissions targets are a real issue for me due to surrounding obstacles; galaxies are in view but through an ED80 I'm only going to get tiny ones compared to my old reflector... which I sold!

I use an ED80 too and I am working on about 12 hours worth of LRGB data on M51, not a bad target for an ED80.. ? Give it a whirl! ?

Otherwise Juan from https://m.cheapastrophotography.vpweb.co.uk/Available-Cameras.html

Has some excellent 2nd hand modified dslrs.. I got my 600d here, and it was a massive improvement. ?

[happy-kat]

I used the Heal module to work on the background without the stars, not happy with this I feel it might work best with manual manipulation using a photo editor.

[8472]

If you want to isolate more of the nebula, I'd be looking to use the isolate mask with multiple strategic clicks with the "Similar Brightness" mask function, then use the "Life" module to tone down the background (and surrounding LP) to your liking.

Startools usually needs following up with a Photoshop/Gimp-type image editor for finishing touches, in my limited experience.

[happy-kat]

The isolate even when used with a mask using similar brightness I was not keen on the colours it created too harsh a back ground contrast.

[Notty]

Thank you all for the tips and help everyone.  Kat, yes you've done a great job isolating the very little amount of nebula signal my dumb camera captured.  So is the mainly red hue surrounding my entire image (the one I posted) basically LP do we think?  I think I need to dig in my pockets and get a mono camera again with an Ha filter... if I'm home and the skies are clear but there's nothing high up enough or the moon's out I can't waste the session.

[happy-kat]

I don't know re if it is nebulousity or LP, I tend to go looking at other images on Google to help there.

Here is a quick process just using crop>bin 50%>wipe>strong dev>mask>life isolate with mask fuss. Resized 50% smaller and saved as png.

If you spent time building your mask you could make it look more natural perhaps. Wipe is not optional it was fairly solid red with out it. 

 

[8472]

You don't have to go the full 100% strength setting in the life module to have a desired effect. I find it unnaturally clips the black point and will in turn make the mask isolated area look "washed out", or so to speak.

Only time I go anywhere near that high is when doing star clusters, for example. A lower value along with adjusting the airy disk parameters yields better results, when I've dabbled in it.

That and with subsequent curve, saturation and highlights/shadows manipulation in a photo editor may have desirable affects.

The official Startools forum is a great place to ask for help too. Ivo (the software author) is very active and helpful in sorting out most issues you may have.

[happy-kat]

IVO is very helpful and the unofficial PDF useful too. Agreed I could have adjusted the level of life isolate applied but I was doing a quick compare to using the heal module on the same data. 

[Notty]

10 hours ago, happy-kat said:

IVO is very helpful and the unofficial PDF useful too. Agreed I could have adjusted the level of life isolate applied but I was doing a quick compare to using the heal module on the same data. 

Thanks Kat I really need to get to grips with masks. What is this unofficial pdf you mention please?

[happy-kat]

There is a link to it on the startools website and Guy's guides in the forum are good too.