Jump to content

Stargazers Lounge Uses Cookies

Like most websites, SGL uses cookies in order to deliver a secure, personalised service, to provide social media functions and to analyse our traffic. Continued use of SGL indicates your acceptance of our cookie policy.

sgl_imaging_challenge_banner_solar_25_winners.thumb.jpg.fe4e711c64054f3c9486c752d0bcd6f2.jpg

nuffsed81

Secondary mirror so far our and how to center do concaved mirror

Recommended Posts

I have just got a second hand Astromaster 130EQ. I want to say that i have collimated scopes before without the use of a laser but in this case i have 2 questions as this is so far out i cant see what i am looking at half the time. So hopefully you can help, thank you.

Info about the first problem:
The secondary mirror fixing screw that hold the mirror and the collimation allen key bolts were so loose the secondary mirror had rolled facing the bottom of the OTE. In every other case the holding screw never needed touching and all i had to do were make small adjustments with an allen key, no screwdriver was needed. So this case is a whole different scale then any other collimation i have ever needed to do. You probably all know that i need to get the center of the eyepiece in line with the center of the mirror before can move on with this step. 

Question 1
What is the best way to do this, shall i just eye it for now? (i have seen people measuring to the center of the eyepiece and then do the same with mirror but then i still dont know if the mirror is facing me directly.)


Info about the second problem
Every other time i have collimated a scope the mirror and scope were very low quality and just used for practice basically. The old scopes were used to see if i wanted to go further into this hobby which i definitely do. Any how the old scopes had a flat mirror and i could find the center by placing the mirror on paper and tracing a circle template. The thing is this mirror is concaved so any template iswill have to be pushed into the vurve (i think).

Question 2
So how can i center the mirror without placing it face down on a piece of paper which cant be a good thing?

Thank you. I hope i have not gone on to much, thank you for your patience in reading a long winded post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, nuffsed81 said:

What is the best way to do this, shall i just eye it for now? (i have seen people measuring to the center of the eyepiece and then do the same with mirror but then i still dont know if the mirror is facing me directly.)

You would not measure to centre the secondary under the focuser. You should put your cheshire/sight tube in the focuser and adjust the focuser position so that the circle formed by the bottom of the sight tube is only a tiny bit larger than the size that the secondary appears. You can now easily see when the mirror is at the correct height and orientation. 

29 minutes ago, nuffsed81 said:

Any how the old scopes had a flat mirror and i could find the center by placing the mirror on paper and tracing a circle template. The thing is this mirror is concaved so any template iswill have to be pushed into the vurve (i think).

No, they didn't. A flat mirror would not focus light to a point. They may have had less obvious curves but they still have them. You still mark the centres in the same way and the curve of the mirror should not be a problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you sai eyepiece I assume you’re referring to the focuser tube? That is where you want to center the secondary to. You’ll need at least a collimation cap to achieve that to a decent degree of accuracy. If you have a 1.25” dust cap you can carefully drill a tiny hole in the center of the cap which works for now. Once you place the cap in the focuser you’ll want to look through it and center the image of the secondary so it look round (it is ova yes)

but you want it to appear round and, centered within the outer edges of the focuser tube whilst your focuser is racked down al the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ricochet said:

You would not measure to centre the secondary under the focuser. You should put your cheshire/sight tube in the focuser and adjust the focuser position so that the circle formed by the bottom of the sight tube is only a tiny bit larger than the size that the secondary appears. You can now easily see when the mirror is at the correct height and orientation. 

No, they didn't. A flat mirror would not focus light to a point. They may have had less obvious curves but they still have them. You still mark the centres in the same way and the curve of the mirror should not be a problem. 

The probel is the old mirror was small so i could put a piece of paper directly on it and mark the center, with the larger mirror (still only 130mm) i can see i will have to push the paper into the curve.  That means the paper will be creased and the template not of any use.  Is there any other way.  You would think celestron would have a central mark already but it doesnt unfortunately.

The main problem is the first step and gettin the secondary sorted. How can i do this?  Do i just do it by eye? Approximate it it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

When you sai eyepiece I assume you’re referring to the focuser tube? That is where you want to center the secondary to. You’ll need at least a collimation cap to achieve that to a decent degree of accuracy. If you have a 1.25” dust cap you can carefully drill a tiny hole in the center of the cap which works for now. Once you place the cap in the focuser you’ll want to look through it and center the image of the secondary so it look round (it is ova yes)

but you want it to appear round and, centered within the outer edges of the focuser tube whilst your focuser is racked down al the way.

I believe i have the secondary sorted as good as can be for now. I made a  coli cap and the circles are all concentric.  Have you any ideas how i can center dot the primary, i have watched many YT videos  but is there anything you can think of where i dont have to trace the mirror.  I dont have acompass and cant get into town to get one sorry.

 

Thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, nuffsed81 said:

The probel is the old mirror was small so i could put a piece of paper directly on it and mark the center, with the larger mirror (still only 130mm) i can see i will have to push the paper into the curve.  That means the paper will be creased and the template not of any use.  Is there any other way.  You would think celestron would have a central mark already but it doesnt unfortunately.

The main problem is the first step and gettin the secondary sorted. How can i do this?  Do i just do it by eye? Approximate it it?

The height difference is only 3mm. The paper will be fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, nuffsed81 said:

I believe i have the secondary sorted as good as can be for now.

sorry, i hope you were able to understand my post absolutely full of spelling errors lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

sorry, i hope you were able to understand my post absolutely full of spelling errors lol.

Yeh its fine.  Thanks for help.  i have sorted the secondary i just need to center the primary now. Thanks

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ricochet said:

You would not measure to centre the secondary under the focuser. You should put your cheshire/sight tube in the focuser and adjust the focuser position.

That is part of the problem i dont have a cheshire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

don't sweat it, a collimation cap, even a home made one will get you close to where you want to be, this is what you want to see down your focuser tube, just get the secondary looking round, and also entered within the focus tube edge, then work on adjusting the screws so the primary reveals itself in the secondary.

image.png.9826d7b5e0bb77562c1ca5ec3e09ce97.png 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a very similar problem with my new 130EQ some years ago when I first got back into astronomy. I bought a cheshire but found the collimation cap worked just as well and was simpler so I wouldn't bother with one.The secondary adjustment was a pain not helped by the fact that the focuser tube was not running true because a couple of the teflon guides were out of place. I pretty much had to start from scratch, like yourself, getting the mirror position correct and then fine adjusting it. but it got sorted in the end, just taking it a step at a time. Once the secondary was good the primary is easy. I centre spotted the primary OK using the paper method. Fortunately once the collimation is sorted the 130EQ holds it pretty well, just the occasional tweak on the primary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By PlanetGazer
      Good Afternoon
       
      I have been trying to get my SW 250P (f/4.7) to the best possible collimation as I couldn't manage to focus on any of the planets so far. I just collimated the scope to ready it up for tonight's session. Your feedback is much appreciated!

    • By M55_uk
      Hi,
      I have a Celestron 130EQ and have been told it has a spherical mirror, so wondering if I would get better images if I upgraded it to a (say) SW 130P mirror. And the other important question is will it fit into it.
    • By orfest
      [A few more photos are in the imgur album]
      Made this telescope for observing sunspots. The Sun gets projected onto a piece of paper after bouncing from 3 mirrors inside the frame.

      It's compact, light, takes only a few seconds to point at the Sun, and sketching sunspots is as easy as circling the spots on a piece of paper.

      It can even project the Moon:

      The design is inspired by a commerically available telescope, but I’ve done all the designing myself, just for the fun of it.
      Sunspotter is full of little details that make it interesting. How do you fix the eyepiece in the exact place where it needs to be? How do you keep the lens in place and perfectly aligned?
      Building the telescope was a lot of fun, I’ve learned to use a jigsaw, X-Carve and a 3D printer. The plan is to use it to complete the Astroleague Sunspotter Observing Program, but unfortunately I completed it at the minimum of a Sun cycle, and won’t see any sunspots until next year.
       
      Telescope parameters:
      Magnification: 75x Size: 41cm x 41cm x 15cm Weight: 1kg Design: Keplerian Projection size: 75mm Materials needed:
      Lens: Ø52mm f=750mm achromatic doublet Mirrors: 1, 2, 3 Eyepiece: Baader 10mm ortho 1.5m² of 10mm plywood Wooden glue 5m of PLA filament 12 nails Compressed air Isopropyl alcohol Tools I used:
      Jigsaw with a 30° bevel capacity X-Carve 1000 3D printer A laser pointer Clamp Learned modelling basics in:
      LibreCAD Easel TinkerCAD Fusion 360  
      Part 1: Choosing the lens
      The idea of a sunspotter is that the light goes through the lens, travels inside the telescope, bouncing from 3 mirrors, enters an eyepiece and the image gets projected on one of its sides.
      The distance the light travels before entering an eyepiece is the focal length and it determines the size of the telescope.
      I chose a Ø52mm f=750mm achromatic double. Observing the Sun doesn’t require a large aperture, 50mm is more than enough. I wanted a high magnification and went for the longest focal length I could find, which was 750mm. Achromatic doublet design is what people use in refractors. If it is good enough for a refractor, it’s definitely good enough for my project.
       
      With the focal length chosen I could design the wooden parts. A drawing showed that the frame needed to have sides 30cm long, but I wasn’t sure about the placement of the mirrors and went for 31cm sides, planning to shorten the light path as needed by adjusting mirror positions.
      This is the LibreCAD drawing of the layout of parts on a piece of plywood:

      Part 2: Building the base
      Having a drawing of the base in LibreCAD, I printed the drawing 1:1 scale on multiple A4 sheets of paper and glued them together. I transferred the drawing to a piece of cardboard and cut it out.

      Applied this cardboard template to the sheet of plywood, and cut out two parts with a jigsaw.. I’m not an experienced user of jigsaw, and couldn’t manage to cut half-circles accurately enough. Even worse was that the two parts were very different. I didn’t want the frame to randomly tilt left or right when adjusting its altitude, and had to spend a lot of time with sandpaper to make the halves as similar as I could.
       
      Glued the two large parts with three small parts in the middle. Additionally nailed the parts and the base was ready.
       
      Part 3: Frame
      The frame is simply a triangle made of three pieces, with short sides cut at a 30° angle. Most jigsaws can cut at 45°, but not at 30°. Had to buy a new jigsaw with a 30° bevel capacity.
      Cut out three sides, cut short sides at a 30° angle, but didn’t put them together just yet.
      The lens needs to be perfectly aligned with the Sun-facing part of the frame, otherwise the Sun projection isn't circular but elongated.
      My solution was to carve a hole with a little step as shown on the image.

      The inner hole is Ø46.5mm, the outer hole is Ø50.8mm.
      The outer hole is the exact size to let the lens fit, but with a little bit of friction. Had to carve several holes to find the minimal size the lens could fit in.
      The step is just large enough to have enough surface for the glue to keep the lens in place, I didn't want to reduce the aperture too much.
      I used an X-Carve for carving and Easel for modelling.
       
      With all 3 sides ready, I could assemble the frame. It appeared that my 30° angle cuts were not very precise, but after some sandpapering the sides started fitting together alright. Glued the parts together and left them to dry for a day. To apply some pressure on the joints, I wound several twine loops around the frame really tight, made sure all sides fitted well together and left it to dry like that for a day.

      Part 4: Mirrors
      When selecting mirrors I was looking for the smallest mirror that fit the cone of light. Small mirrors are a lot easier to place, and they let me better control the length of the light path. I considered using elliptic mirrors, but they were bulky and really hard to place. All mirrors are first surface mirrors, otherwise planning their locations would be a lot more confusing.
      This was my original plan of placing the mirrors:

      As you can see, all the angles and distances were carefully measured, and I wanted to simply make mirror holders of those exact dimensions. This was clearly a bad idea.
      I 3d-printed some parts like this:

      And only later I realized that the frame angles are not exactly 60°, and that there are drops of glue along the edges that don’t let me fit the pieces deep enough in the joint between the sides.
      I cut angles from all the mirror holders:

      After I put the first mirror in place I realized the angles are all wrong, and that I needed to re-do the holder. Separating the mirror from the holder was a huge pain, which resulted in an accident. The mirror fell off the desk and got damaged.

      Luckily, only the back side got damaged, the front side was still working:

      The final designs of mirror holders looks like this:

      The holes in the front surface let me apply pressure on the back of the mirror if I ever want to separate it from the holder. The recesses collect the excess glue to avoid mirror skewing when gluing them.
      All other holes are simply to save the filament.
       
      Part 5: Placing mirrors
      What I learned is that you can’t plan positions of several pieces with high precision and just hope that it all comes together. I needed a feedback about the precision of mirror positions.
      I used a laser pointer to verify mirror positions at each step.
      In the picture you can see that the laser is firmly set in a hole in another piece of wood, with layers of isolation tape on the tip of the laser pointer to make it stable. A clamp holds the piece of wood in place, ensuring that the laser ray goes in the same direction as a solar ray would. A crosshair of black thread at the center of the lens ensures the laser goes exactly through the center of the lens.


      When placing each mirror, I marked the spot where I expected the laser to end up. While gluing the mirror holder to the frame, I kept the laser as close to that spot as possible. If for some reason, the laser couldn’t hit the expected spot, I did my best with placing the mirror, and recalculated locations of the following mirrors.
      I saw the first sunspots after placing all the mirrors and simply holding an eyepiece in hand.

      Part 6: Eyepiece holder
      I tried eyepieces of different focal length and liked the picture I got with a 10mm eyepiece the most.
      An eyepiece needs to be in a very exact spot to produce a sharp image. At this point it was obvious that my frame doesn’t match the model, and that I didn’t even know what exactly was wrong with the frame. I didn’t want to rely on the model and moved forward with trial-and-error.
      I printed several parts to hold the eyepiece, with different eyepiece locations:

      The part in the photo was a total disaster. It needed quite a lot of filament, at the same didn’t have enough surface area to be glued to the frame, and not enough surface area to hold the eyepiece firmly.
      The next iteration was a lot better:

      This part has a lot more surface area, and needs less filament to be printed. I intentionally printed the hole for the eyepiece too small, and had to sandpaper it a little bit, to make the eyepiece stay firmly fixed.
      Adjusting the focus is done by sliding the eyepiece up and down until the Sun becomes a circle with well defined borders.
       
      Part 7: Dust
      All optical parts should be kept clean. Dust on the mirrors and the lens will make the image darker. Dust on the eyepiece will show up as artifacts on the projected image. Unlike sunspots, the artifacts will not move with the Sun. To clean the eyepiece I used compressed air. To clean the mirrors I used isopropyl alcohol.
       
      Part 8: Fire safety
      Don’t leave devices with magnifying lenses lying around. Once the Sun happened to be in such a spot that its light went right through the lens, burning through the cap of the eyepiece. Luckily, nobody was hurt and no other damage was done.

      Part 9: Future work
      Build quality of the base is very poor. The frame tilts sideways when adjusting its altitude despite all my efforts. I’d like to build a new base, but leave all the work to the machines. I already have a model for an X-Carve to make both base parts, compatible with my current frame:

      A notch along the edge of the half-circle should eliminate the tilt. The precision of the machining should make the base very stable. Maybe next year, when sunspots become a common daily sight, I’ll get to this project.
       
      Thank you for reading this far!
      I hope you enjoyed it.
    • By Pogo007
      Hope someone with more experience than I, which basically means anyone that has successfully collimated a Newtonian, can answer a couple of compound questions I have based on my first and only attempt at secondary collimation of my SkyWatcher Flextube 250.
      1) All three of my secondary collimation screws were extremely snug before I did anything and I was only able to comfortably turn them counter-clockwise.  Is this normal?  Do I need to loosen all three screws first before I can properly start collimation?  Should I be turning any screw beyond "snug"?
      2) Before collimating, I placed a yellow sheet inside my OTA opposite my focuser tube and I placed a red sheet between my secondary and primary.  The view this gave through my focuser tube was of a red circle surrounded by a partial yellow ring (the secondary mirror stalk blocking a portion of this yellow annulus). While independently turning each of the secondary collimation screws counter-clockwise I looked down the focuser tube (both with and without a sight tube installed) expecting to see some change in the shape of the red area (more or less circular) and/or the yellow area (less or more even thickness).  I turned the screws no more that 2 complete revolutions.  I did not perceive any appreciable difference in what I saw and I turned each screw back (clockwise) to their original tightness before working with another of the screws.   Does it make sense that I didn't perceive any change?   Should I have turned the screws more revolutions?   Should I have loosened more than one at a time?
      Very confused and looking for your help.  Thanks
    • By Kronos831
      Hey guys,im currently on a school trip and brought my celestron firstscope with, tonight we ll  be trying some dsos and maybe saturn and jupiter,the telescope itself is not collimated and dirty (on the mirrors)So I wanted to ask.in the scope, there is no primary adjustment screws,only the ones to take it off .Does that mean that its set , allowing me to take it off wash it and back on without having to recollimate the primary?
      Thanks
      Kronos
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.