EQ5 star align not working

[msacco]

Hello, I'm having a problem with star aligning my goto EQ5, I believe I am doing everything correctly.

Starting with polar alignment, then setting up the tube etc, setting the goto configurations(using SynscanInit 2.1), then trying to 3 star align.

The process is rather fast, I'm even trying to make it as accurate as possible by using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece(probably way too much, is there any recommendation btw?) with it so I'll be sure Im centered at the target.

Im finishing the 3 star alignment, it says its aligned successfully, but then it just doesn't get anything correct. For example, I started the alignment with Sirius, so then I tried going there with my goto, and its simply off, not that far, but still way off.

Im sure I looked at the right stars, and really have no idea what could be wrong. The axis clutches are locked of course.

Any ideas what could be wrong?

Thanks!

[RolandKol]

Hi Msacco,

Short answer, - you should not expect Spot On targeting after initial manual Polar Alignment.

If you use mount for visual, - it may be a bit annoying, but not essential.

There are several problems which are causing it:

1) Bad mount leveling (for example, - if tripod is on the grass, it may sink into the ground after a while);

2) Telescope was not balanced correctly on the mount.

3) Polar Alignment was not precise;

Once these 3 steps are done correctly, 2 star alignment will be enough.
But even so, if you slew to the opposite side of the meridian, - it will most likely miss a bit.

[msacco]

3 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

Hi Msacco,

Short answer, - you should not expect Spot On targeting after initial manual Polar Alignment.

If you use mount for visual, - it may be a bit annoying, but not essential.

There are several problems which are causing it:

1) Bad mount leveling (for example, - if tripod is on the grass, it may sink into the ground after a while);

2) Telescope was not balanced correctly on the mount.

3) Polar Alignment was not precise;

Once these 3 steps are done correctly, 2 star alignment will be enough.
But even so, if you slew to the opposite side of the meridian, - it will most likely miss a bit.

What do you mean by "you should not expect Spot On targeting after initial manual Polar Alignment." Isn't that the whole idea?.. And what is not manual polar alignment?

I am using the mount for visual only atm, the thing is faint DSO objects are sometimes hard to spot for me(Im not always going to a very dark site as well), so the goto should be really useful with that.

Regarding the 3 things:

1. I was on solid ground and the mount was leveled, so I don't think thats the problem.

2. Is that necessary? I've done it but not spot on accurately.

3. Pretty sure the polar alignment was fairly precise.

And by "But even so, if you slew to the opposite side of the meridian, - it will most likely miss a bit." - is that correct even with 3 stars alignment?

Thanks for the help!

[DAVE AMENDALL]

I had similar problems with Synscan some time ago. as previously mentioned precise polar alignment is the key. If this is achieved, one star alignment is often enough . After messing about with the handset it is a good idea to go back to factory settings and re-enter lat and long date time ect and try again. ............Dave

[RolandKol]

22 minutes ago, msacco said:

What do you mean by "you should not expect Spot On targeting after initial manual Polar Alignment." Isn't that the whole idea?.. And what is not manual polar alignment?

I am using the mount for visual only atm, the thing is faint DSO objects are sometimes hard to spot for me(Im not always going to a very dark site as well), so the goto should be really useful with that.

Regarding the 3 things:

1. I was on solid ground and the mount was leveled, so I don't think thats the problem.

2. Is that necessary? I've done it but not spot on accurately.

3. Pretty sure the polar alignment was fairly precise.

And by "But even so, if you slew to the opposite side of the meridian, - it will most likely miss a bit." - is that correct even with 3 stars alignment?

Thanks for the help!

Hi again, not manual PA, - would be attaching camera to the scope and using software to help with PA, like PHD2 Drift Alignment and etc, or using Polar Alignment camera which fits into the Polar Alignment scope,

something like this https://bit.ly/2M4N1uB

2) yes, scope must be balanced correctly, as mount uses gears to slew and imbalance may (correction - Will) cause troubles.

3) If it is done manualy/visually - most like not very precise. Drift alignment would help to increase accuracy or additional ££££ on the camera and software.

With the meridian flip, - you never know, it depends on multiple factors, main, -  once again, - Polar Alignment, the secondary, - cone error, which should not be large or even visible if you have not changed the dovetail bars on the scope, or tried to tighten them and etc, so it should be most likely OK from the box... 

Level +PA+Balance - main issues.

With experience, you will get better in that, - no one has managed to do it perfectly from the first time!  even from the 3rd

P.S.

Avoid additional toys for a while, - especially if your set up is permanent,

You will neat it, don't worry... Just in astronomy it is always like this... nothing works out of the box.

[msacco]

17 minutes ago, DAVE AMENDALL said:

I had similar problems with Synscan some time ago. as previously mentioned precise polar alignment is the key. If this is achieved, one star alignment is often enough . After messing about with the handset it is a good idea to go back to factory settings and re-enter lat and long date time ect and try again. ............Dave

I think I recently just did factory reset, but I'll try again next time. Thanks.

11 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

Hi again, not manual PA, - would be attaching camera to the scope and using software to help with PA, like PHD2 Drift Alignment and etc, or using Polar Alignment camera which fits into the Polar Alignment scope,

something like this https://bit.ly/2M4N1uB

2) yes, scope must be balanced correctly, as mount uses gears to slew and imbalance may (correction - Will) cause troubles.

3) If it is done manualy/visually - most like not very precise. Drift alignment would help to increase accuracy or additional ££££ on the camera and software.

With the meridian flip, - you never know, it depends on multiple factors, main, -  once again, - Polar Alignment, the secondary, - cone error, which should not be large or even visible if you have not changed the dovetail bars on the scope, or tried to tighten them and etc, so it should be most likely OK from the box... 

Level +PA+Balance - main issues.

With experience, will get better in that, - no one has managed to do it perfectly from the first time!  even from the 3rd

P.S.

Avoid additional toys for a while, - especially if your set up is permanent,

You will neat it, don't worry... Just in astronomy it is always like this... nothing works out of the box.

I see, would any camera be enough? My sister has a Canon PowerShot SX510 HS, is it maybe possible to use it to do the polar alignment? Or even for astrophotography? Pretty sure I have a camera adapter in my kit.

Anyway, I think that my polar alignment was correct, but maybe the problem really was the scope balancing, and what do you mean by "Avoid additional toys", what kind of toys? ^^

Anyway, I'll give it all a shot next time, hopefully eventually I'll get the hang of it and really be able to fully experience it, thanks :]

[Owmuchonomy]

Good morning. Polar alignment and GoTo are separate activities. Accurate polar alignment is not necessary for setting up a GoTo system. If you are attempting to set up GoTo for visual observation then a rough polar alignment is more than sufficient.  Accurate polar alignment is only necessary if you are imaging using long exposure capture.

Set your latitude on the mount. Next, with your counterweight bar facing North and the bar pointing down toward the ground do a rough polar alignment by sighting along your OTA to align with the Pole Star. This is sufficient for successful GoTo alignment. Next use the TWO star alignment procedure with a longer focal length such as 20mm eyepiece and NO Barlow. Once you have done this and Alignment is successful you can refine it by repeating using a shorter focal length eyepiece.  The combination of Barlow and eyepiece you mention in your post is far too short to be of use in GoTo alignment.

[msacco]

1 minute ago, Owmuchonomy said:

Good morning. Polar alignment and GoTo are separate activities. Accurate polar alignment is not necessary for setting up a GoTo system. If you are attempting to set up GoTo for visual observation then a rough polar alignment is more than sufficient.  Accurate polar alignment is only necessary if you are imaging using long exposure capture.

Set your latitude on the mount. Next, with your counterweight bar facing North and the bar pointing down toward the ground do a rough polar alignment by sighting along your OTA to align with the Pole Star. This is sufficient for successful GoTo alignment. Next use the TWO star alignment procedure with a longer focal length such as 20mm eyepiece and NO Barlow. Once you have done this and Alignment is successful you can refine it by repeating using a shorter focal length eyepiece.  The combination of Barlow and eyepiece you mention in your post is far too short to be of use in GoTo alignment.

Yeah I remembered you told me that polar alignment is not essential for star align, but I do it anyway to be sure. Does it matter if I do 2-star or 3-star alignment? It would make sense to me that 3-star alignment would be more accurate than 2-star alignment, so I just go with this.

Regarding the eyepieces, I have 25/10/3.6mm eyepieces, so I assume using my 25mm would be the best? And whats the reason behind that? Again, as I think logically, the shorter the eyepiece, I'll be more centered on the object, which should result in more accurate star alignment (?).

Thanks.

[RolandKol]

9 minutes ago, msacco said:

'***

Anyway, I think that my polar alignment was correct, but maybe the problem really was the scope balancing, and what do you mean by "Avoid additional toys", what kind of toys? ^^

Anyway, I'll give it all a shot next time, hopefully eventually I'll get the hang of it and really be able to fully experience it, thanks :]

"Toys" - cameras and etc
It looks like you started very well, - you will manage to pinpoint it without them.

P.S.

If you will attach any DSLR to your scope... I afraid you will run into another "problem"  just check the Astrophotography section for beginners... leave it for a while...  otherwise you will end up spending a fortune

[RolandKol]

12 minutes ago, msacco said:

Regarding the eyepieces, I have 25/10/3.6mm eyepieces, so I assume using my 25mm would be the best? And whats the reason behind that? Again, as I think logically, the shorter the eyepiece, I'll be more centered on the object, which should result in more accurate star alignment (?).

Thanks.

You probably already noticed, if you will target the star and add 10mm EP, you most likely will not see it your FOV initially, thats why he offered to use 25mm to begin with.

it will be enough for the start.

Once you will need more precision you can try re-align using 10mm.

And even further more, your Handset has PEC (do not remember how it is called properly, Precision Area or something). So if you cannot find for ex. galaxy, set up PEC on surrounding brighter stars (the closer, the better) and your mount will increase  accuracy in that area.

P.S. just keep in mind, for most of the galaxies and nebulas you do need a really dark skies...
I was not able to see Andromeda with 10" DOB from my back-garden in London.

[RolandKol]

Correction: 

I meant, - Pointing Accuracy Enhancement - PAE

[Owmuchonomy]

19 minutes ago, msacco said:

Yeah I remembered you told me that polar alignment is not essential for star align, but I do it anyway to be sure. Does it matter if I do 2-star or 3-star alignment? It would make sense to me that 3-star alignment would be more accurate than 2-star alignment, so I just go with this.

Regarding the eyepieces, I have 25/10/3.6mm eyepieces, so I assume using my 25mm would be the best? And whats the reason behind that? Again, as I think logically, the shorter the eyepiece, I'll be more centered on the object, which should result in more accurate star alignment (?).

Thanks.

Making you PA “more accurate” won’t affect your GoTo. Spending time on that is wasting valuable observing time. Your GoTo mapping will override your PA. GoTo maps your local sky region so you can find objects. Polar Alignment sets your mounts RA axis to accurately mimic the Earth’s rotation for imaging purposes. Fine tuning the latter first won’t affect the former. By all means do a 3 star alignment. This activity takes into account any cone error in your setup so you can traverse the meridian but it’s not absolutely necessary and doesn’t really add anything else. Use the 25mm EP to get your star centred then swap it for the 10mm to do the final centreing of the alignment star. That will be more than enough for GoTo.  If you are still having issues check the inputs to Synscan are correct.

[msacco]

19 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

"Toys" - cameras and etc
It looks like you started very well, - you will manage to pinpoint it without them.

P.S.

If you will attach any DSLR to your scope... I afraid you will run into another "problem"  just check the Astrophotography section for beginners... leave it for a while...  otherwise you will end up spending a fortune

 

11 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

You probably already noticed, if you will target the star and add 10mm EP, you most likely will not see it your FOV initially, thats why he offered to use 25mm to begin with.

it will be enough for the start.

Once you will need more precision you can try re-align using 10mm.

And even further more, your Handset has PEC (do not remember how it is called properly, Precision Area or something). So if you cannot find for ex. galaxy, set up PEC on surrounding brighter stars (the closer, the better) and your mount will increase  accuracy in that area.

P.S. just keep in mind, for most of the galaxies and nebulas you do need a really dark skies...
I was not able to see Andromeda with 10" DOB from my back-garden in London.

 

5 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

Correction: 

I meant, - Pointing Accuracy Enhancement - PAE

Yeah I didn't really wanted to get into astrophotography, just want to do my things well and use them properly

Regarding the eyepieces, what do you mean by "not see it your FOV initially", when focusing I can see anything even when using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece, so I know its centered and still in my FOV(I assume its not what you meant tho? :x)

And what difference does it make if I align using my 10mm eyepiece to start with or start with 25mm then re-align with 10mm eyepiece?..

Just to point out, Im not expecting to see much with my 8" in a "backyard" site, but I do want to know what I can and cannot see, so thats why I would like that either way.

Regarding the last thing you said, I have no idea what you're talking about really, but I do remember seeing something like that in the handset, and that sounds really interesting, do you mind elaborating on that or tell me what I can search for in gogle to learn more about that? Thanks again

 

2 minutes ago, Owmuchonomy said:

Making you PA “more accurate” won’t affect your GoTo. Spending time on that is wasting valuable observing time. Your GoTo mapping will override your PA. GoTo maps your local sky region so you can find objects. Polar Alignment sets your mounts RA axis to accurately mimic the Earth’s rotation for imaging purposes. Fine tuning the latter first won’t affect the former. By all means do a 3 star alignment. This activity takes into account any cone error in your setup so you can traverse the meridian but it’s not absolutely necessary and doesn’t really add anything else. Use the 25mm EP to get your star centred then swap it for the 10mm to do the final centreing of the alignment star. That will be more than enough for GoTo.  If you are still having issues check the inputs to Synscan are correct.

The synscan setting are all correct(I checked like 100 times), regarding the PA, I really might try skipping it next time, idk..

About the eyepiece for the star align. I still can't quite understand why not use the shortest eyepiece I can, wouldn't it make it the most accurate? I did start off with 25mm, then went to 10mm and then to 3.6mm(again, using a 2x barlow).

I will try next time using my 25mm without the barlow, but I'd like to understand why its better that way, thanks

[RolandKol]

8 minutes ago, msacco said:

Yeah I didn't really wanted to get into astrophotography, just want to do my things well and use them properly

Regarding the eyepieces, what do you mean by "not see it your FOV initially", when focusing I can see anything even when using 2x barlow and 3.6mm eyepiece, so I know its centered and still in my FOV(I assume its not what you meant tho? :x)

And what difference does it make if I align using my 10mm eyepiece to start with or start with 25mm then re-align with 10mm eyepiece?..

Just to point out, Im not expecting to see much with my 8" in a "backyard" site, but I do want to know what I can and cannot see, so thats why I would like that either way.

Regarding the last thing you said, I have no idea what you're talking about really, but I do remember seeing something like that in the handset, and that sounds really interesting, do you mind elaborating on that or tell me what I can search for in gogle to learn more about that? Thanks again

 

sorry for that, FOV =  field of view.

And to be honest, if you managed to see the alignment Star with 10mm from the very beginning...
You are already in a very good position...
I would not touch  anything else.

Usually, after the initial rig setup, everyone aligns their finder scope, and finds guiding star via guiding scope as it has very wide FOV, later 25mm EP is used as it has quite wide field of view, - simply to see/find the alignment star and later, once centered, 10mm is used to pin/point the alignment.

and if you managed to accomplish alignment from opposite side of routine, - you were very lucky or very good from the start.

Or, - you simply aligned on the incorrect star, as you saw a different one via 10mm, not the correct one.

[RolandKol]

As per PAE - https://inter-static.skywatcher.com/upfiles/en_download_caty01316547032.pdf

Page number 10 sir!
Also, lots of topics on forums.

[msacco]

7 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

sorry for that, FOV =  field of view.

And to be honest, if you managed to see the alignment Star with 10mm from the very beginning...
You are already in a very good position...
I would not touch  anything else.

Usually, after the initial rig setup, everyone aligns their finder scope, and finds guiding star via guiding scope as it has very wide FOV, later 25mm EP is used as it has quite wide field of view, - simply to see/find the alignment star and later, once centered, 10mm is used to pin/point the alignment.

and if you managed to accomplish alignment from opposite side of routine, - you were very lucky or very good from the start.

Or, - you simply aligned on the incorrect star, as you saw a different one via 10mm, not the correct one.

Let me explain it a bit. By saying that I did star alignment with 3.6mm eyepiece and 2x barlow doesn't mean I started off with that, or that the goto was pointing there to begin with, it was rather close, but in accuracy terms, it was way off.

My finder scope was very accurate, so usually I could easily detect straight away using my 10mm eyepiece(again, everything here is with 2x barlow), but the goto wasn't point on, I had to slew there. If I couldn't I'd just use my 25mm - 10mm - 3.6mm.

In each step I tried centering the star as much as I could, and ended up with centering at 3.6mm. Isn't that the most accurate star alignment possible? Or is using longer eyepiece would somehow result in a more accurate star alignment?

2 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

As per PAE - https://inter-static.skywatcher.com/upfiles/en_download_caty01316547032.pdf

Page number 10 sir!
Also, lots of topics on forums.

Thank you! I'll make sure to read that later on

[RolandKol]

18 minutes ago, msacco said:

Let me explain it a bit. By saying that I did star alignment with 3.6mm eyepiece and 2x barlow doesn't mean I started off with that, or that the goto was pointing there to begin with, it was rather close, but in accuracy terms, it was way off.

My finder scope was very accurate, so usually I could easily detect straight away using my 10mm eyepiece(again, everything here is with 2x barlow), but the goto wasn't point on, I had to slew there. If I couldn't I'd just use my 25mm - 10mm - 3.6mm.

In each step I tried centering the star as much as I could, and ended up with centering at 3.6mm. Isn't that the most accurate star alignment possible? Or is using longer eyepiece would somehow result in a more accurate star alignment?

Thank you! I'll make sure to read that later on

You did all correct, finalizing with the shortest EP should increase your accuracy and if you managed to do it even with x2 barlow, - you are in a very good starting point, but, as Cris told before, x2 barlow is not really necessary, so do not waste time, as such a big accuracy is not essential for visual observing.
I usually used 25mm and 10mm, and it was enough.

It looks like you simply need to balance scope correctly and double check your handset settings, - but you if you used android app as a data guide, you most probably set up handset as it should be.

just a quicky one, - sometimes people enter date incorrectly... Skywatchers handset uses American date format, Month/Day/Year, I have managed to enter it few times incorrectly even knowing about it, as it is a habit to use other format.
Plus, - time saving option also makes a big difference.

P.S.

During my first attempts, I was not able to see any guiding star in the 10mm EP if I have not centered it with 25mm first

Brilliant start!

[spillage]

Sorry it's been ages since I had to star align but when you slew to your alignment star and then adjust the mount are you taking the backlash out. I am sure maybe that you need to go north, west for you final adjustment.

[RolandKol]

12 minutes ago, spillage said:

Sorry it's been ages since I had to star align but when you slew to your alignment star and then adjust the mount are you taking the backlash out. I am sure maybe that you need to go north, west for you final adjustment.

I do remember doing it several times  

it was enormously difficult and depended on the luck also... Sometimes mount over-slewed and I had simply wait for the star to drift into the center and etc, plus all was upside down...

But finally, I have not noticed any visual improvement, so stopped doing that, it took too much time as my set up was not permanent.

 

[Owmuchonomy]

I’m sorry but you have lost me now. If you are using such a short fl EP and the alignment stars are visible in that FOV I can’t see that you have any problem. To be able to use a 3.6mm EP for GoTo alignment is somewhat spectacular.

[msacco]

5 hours ago, RolandKol said:

You did all correct, finalizing with the shortest EP should increase your accuracy and if you managed to do it even with x2 barlow, - you are in a very good starting point, but, as Cris told before, x2 barlow is not really necessary, so do not waste time, as such a big accuracy is not essential for visual observing.
I usually used 25mm and 10mm, and it was enough.

It looks like you simply need to balance scope correctly and double check your handset settings, - but you if you used android app as a data guide, you most probably set up handset as it should be.

just a quicky one, - sometimes people enter date incorrectly... Skywatchers handset uses American date format, Month/Day/Year, I have managed to enter it few times incorrectly even knowing about it, as it is a habit to use other format.
Plus, - time saving option also makes a big difference.

P.S.

During my first attempts, I was not able to see any guiding star in the 10mm EP if I have not centered it with 25mm first

Brilliant start!

 

2 minutes ago, Owmuchonomy said:

I’m sorry but you have lost me now. If you are using such a short fl EP and the alignment stars are visible in that FOV I can’t see that you have any problem. To be able to use a 3.6mm EP for GoTo alignment is somewhat spectacular.

Your reactions are so shocked that I assume I probably just do something wrong -.-

[dannybgoode]

I’ve had a fair few problems with getting star alignment to work albeit with my AZ EQ6. 

Two things really helped me - getting the latitude on the scope set right - I was a fair bit out partly due to my fault and partly because the scale isn’t overly accurate. Then I did a quick and dirty PA  

The other was getting the SynScan WiFi adapter- for reasons unknown it seems to slew and find targets much more accurately than the handset. I am not the only person to notice this. 

Once I finally got it working it was getting every target bang centre every time. About to start imaging so will see how it continues to perform. 

[RolandKol]

1 hour ago, msacco said:

 

Your reactions are so shocked that I assume I probably just do something wrong -.-

I have only two options in my mind:

You are quite well aligned from the start or,

Once you pop in 10mm EP, you actually align on the wrong star!

[msacco]

18 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

I have only to options:

You are quite well aligned from the start or,

Once you pop in 10mm EP, you actually align on the wrong star!

You misunderstood me, I am not center aligned from the start. I just slew it to the correct star with my finderscope, and then center it with my 10mm eyepiece.

[RolandKol]

15 minutes ago, msacco said:

You misunderstood me, I am not center aligned from the start. I just slew it to the correct star with my finderscope, and then center it with my 10mm eyepiece.

Just in case, next time, try adding 25mm after finding star in the finderscope, and only after 10mm. Just to double check if you are actually looking at the same star.