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Mesu not tracking on initial testing


Tom OD

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2 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

These mini scope-top computers are not doing well at Les Granges. Our robotic team have had several from three different manufacturers and they have all been sent back, one of them several times. How about Sara's solution of a big old desktop PC with lots of USB ports?

Olly

Well I cant argue at the moment. However I m still going to wait a bit until we find the issue. From my day job point of view, you need to be careful to assert a blame to one thing in particular.

One year from now I may be saying, yep a PC was the way to go :)

Tom.

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2 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

How about Sara's solution of a big old desktop PC with lots of USB ports?

We're not beaten yet but, Olly, this is my own solution too - I even run Windows XP!!! It is rather sad to learn that issues with 'scope-top computers' appear to be commonplace.

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For me though on the Eagle, its just a PC, I would have thought no difference to a PC etc..

The USB board should be similar if not the same as other PC right?

I wonder if the power requirements etc.. cant be maintained with so much load on the boards. Time will tell.

T

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Interesting Olly, they seem such a neat solution, but by the sounds of it are best avoided for now. 

I use a cheapish Windows laptop protected from the night in a cardboard box with a decent USB hub. I do always have my fingers crossed whenever it is in use though! Thankfully 2019 is starting well and I have my fingers crossed right now!!

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Olly has seen lots of issues with these units, so I know where he is coming from with his experience.

My experience was with a USB that crashed / blue screened my PC a few times. Before the blue screen, it hung up the guider. I kind of have a set against them since. Maybe unfairly, but this experience does

set you on a path of preference.

Tom

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13 minutes ago, swag72 said:

Are you powering the mount from the Eagle power ports Tom? If so I would try removing this as a potential issue and power the Mesu through a power pack.

Funnily enough, we did discuss power as I felt that the 12.4v from the Eagle was on the low side.

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16 minutes ago, swag72 said:

Are you powering the mount from the Eagle power ports Tom? If so I would try removing this as a potential issue and power the Mesu through a power pack.

Hi Sara,

Sorry thought I had replied to this. I m powering it from the Eagle. I can switch it to the Dragonfly / Mains.

Tom

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5 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

Funnily enough, we did discuss power as I felt that the 12.4v from the Eagle was on the low side.

I found that my Eagle was very power specific...... anything under 13.8v and all sorts of things started happening.

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4 minutes ago, Tom OD said:

Hi Sara,

Sorry thought I had replied to this. I m powering it from the Eagle. I can switch it to the Dragonfly / Mains.

Tom

That would be the thing I would try...... get the power from a proper clean power supply for the Mesu and see if that helps.

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1 minute ago, swag72 said:

That would be the thing I would try...... get the power from a proper clean power supply for the Mesu and see if that helps.

Yes I saw your post previously on this.

My Eagle power cable only outpius 12.9 according to the Eagle s/w. So that is a limiter. The 13.8v supply to the mount seems like a sensible way to go.

T.

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1 hour ago, Tom OD said:

Yes I saw your post previously on this.

My Eagle power cable only outpius 12.9 according to the Eagle s/w. So that is a limiter. The 13.8v supply to the mount seems like a sensible way to go.

T.

Now you got me worried Tom. I am waiting for my Mesu mount and in my obsy I have 240 V and 12 V outlets, and I use two big ca 100 Ah led batteries (continuously hocked up to smart chargers) to supply the 12 V for things like the mount and heaters. The batteries, when fully charges (which they usually are) gives ca 12.8 V. That has been perfectly fine for my EQ8. Will the Mesu need 13.8V? And if that is the case what do I need to buy to get that? I thought "12V" things like most mounts would be happy with 12.0 V.

Also, what do you mean by Eagle "s/w"? A google search gives 11 different meanings to s/w (from software to sea worthy):

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/S%2FW

Edited by gorann
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40 minutes ago, gorann said:

Now you got me worried Tom. I am waiting for my Mesu mount and in my obsy I have 240 V and 12 V outlets, and I use two big ca 100 Ah led batteries (continuously hocked up to smart chargers) to supply the 12 V for things like the mount and heaters. The batteries, when fully charges (which they usually are) gives ca 12.8 V. That has been perfectly fine for my EQ8. Will the Mesu need 13.8V? And if that is the case what do I need to buy to get that? I thought "12V" things like most mounts would be happy with 12.0 V.

I have potential good news on this. I have done some research and it could be that the 'low voltage' is not an issue here as this extract from a SiTech manual indicates:-

POWER:
The controller has a power connector/terminal block.  Please provide a regulated supply or battery, 4
amp minimum (if full torque is needed) 12 to 24 volt D.C. Supply.  A 7 amp hour Gel Cell battery is
the best portable way to power the unit.  This should last 2 or 3 observing nights before recharging is
necessary, if you have a low friction, balanced telescope.
Please observe polarity.  The internal protection diode is not wired in series with the power lead as is
typical, because the extra .6 volts is crucial to operation of the servo when running at 12 volts.  It is
wired in parallel, after the fuse.  If you hook the power up backwards, you will surely blow the fuse,
and possibly damage other components.  Please don't be the second person to test this!!!!

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9 hours ago, gorann said:

Now you got me worried Tom. I am waiting for my Mesu mount and in my obsy I have 240 V and 12 V outlets, and I use two big ca 100 Ah led batteries (continuously hocked up to smart chargers) to supply the 12 V for things like the mount and heaters. The batteries, when fully charges (which they usually are) gives ca 12.8 V. That has been perfectly fine for my EQ8. Will the Mesu need 13.8V? And if that is the case what do I need to buy to get that? I thought "12V" things like most mounts would be happy with 12.0 V.

Also, what do you mean by Eagle "s/w"? A google search gives 11 different meanings to s/w (from software to sea worthy):

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/S%2FW

Hi Goran,

I mean Software, although if I end up throwing the Eagle in the sea because it doe snot work, I hope it is not sea worthy :)

On the Eagle GUI (software interface screen) you can see the voltage that the Eagle power supply is giving the Eagle, and how much wattage and current is being used up by all of the devices attached to it.

I m sure 12.8v will be enough for your Mesu, it does not specify 13.8 as being necessary. Steve has already replied to this thread with a cut and paste form the manual stating this.

Tom

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10 hours ago, steppenwolf said:

I have potential good news on this. I have done some research and it could be that the 'low voltage' is not an issue here as this extract from a SiTech manual indicates:-

POWER:
The controller has a power connector/terminal block.  Please provide a regulated supply or battery, 4
amp minimum (if full torque is needed) 12 to 24 volt D.C. Supply.  A 7 amp hour Gel Cell battery is
the best portable way to power the unit.  This should last 2 or 3 observing nights before recharging is
necessary, if you have a low friction, balanced telescope.
Please observe polarity.  The internal protection diode is not wired in series with the power lead as is
typical, because the extra .6 volts is crucial to operation of the servo when running at 12 volts.  It is
wired in parallel, after the fuse.  If you hook the power up backwards, you will surely blow the fuse,
and possibly damage other components.  Please don't be the second person to test this!!!!

 

1 hour ago, Tom OD said:

Hi Goran,

I mean Software, although if I end up throwing the Eagle in the sea because it doe snot work, I hope it is not sea worthy :)

On the Eagle GUI (software interface screen) you can see the voltage that the Eagle power supply is giving the Eagle, and how much wattage and current is being used up by all of the devices attached to it.

I m sure 12.8v will be enough for your Mesu, it does not specify 13.8 as being necessary. Steve has already replied to this thread with a cut and paste form the manual stating this.

Tom

Thanks boys!

Yes, it make sence that a battery should be enough since otherwise most of the portable solutions, which I assume are based on led batteries giving max 12.8 V, would not work.

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I have been having a useful discussion with William (Oddsocks) about this issue and he has suggested an interesting test. You could try using a third party FTDI USB/Serial converter plugged into the RS232 port on the Sitech, thus taking one part out of the equation. This would still leave you connected to a USB port on the Eagle but it could prove useful as the data rate would be reduced making the system more 'noise' resilient.

Further, it was suggested that an external powered USB hub could be used as an alternative to give a potentially stronger comms signal with the normal connection. Sorry, Tom, just kicking ideas around in the hope that something get the mount to act normally at a low level.

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17 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

I have been having an useful discussion with William (Oddsocks) about this issue and he has suggested an interesting test. You could try using a third party FTDI USB/Serial converter plugged into the RS232 port on the Sitech, thus taking one part out of the equation. This would still leave you connected to a USB port on the Eagle but it could prove useful as the data rate would be reduced making the system more 'noise' resilient.

Further, it was suggested that an external powered USB hub could be used as an alternative to give a potentially stronger comms signal with the normal connection. Sorry, Tom, just kicking ideas around in the hope that something get the mount to act normally at a low level.

Thanks Steve,

Well in an attempt to take one of the items out of the loop I asked Olly to move the USB from that USB 2.0 "A" connection to the USB 3.0 port. I m hoping that the USB 3.0 is on a different board. I dont know if it is, I sent to mail to primaluce today asking if this is so. I m waiting on a reply from them. Anyway, I cant cycle the 3.0 ports on the Eagle, but I did power cycle the Eagle itself. So it gave small differences when you open the Sitech.exe, in that it either starting saying

"Initialising" > Not Initialised > Below Horizon

Intialising > Faking Servos > Bad Comm> Read Servo parameters >Below Horizon It would cycle through these messages twice, then it would stabilise like the first scenario.

Initialising > All 4 errors listed above, constantly cycling.

So USB 3.0 did not fix the issue, which was another port, and possibly another board on the Eagle. Now maybe all the USB the comms, both 2.0 and 3.0 all go through the same thing on the Eagle, where the problem may lie, I dont know the inner architecture of the Eagle.

I was thinking if the USB on the Eagle is an in recoverable state / fault, then how can I connect an external hub to the Eagle at all via a USB port? That would mean a major overhaul and re think, and more $ outlay which would be a shame.

I think I have Serial to USB convertors close by. I could send one to Olly. Or buy one from a French supplier to ship to him.

Tom

 

 

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1 hour ago, steppenwolf said:

I have been having an useful discussion with William (Oddsocks) about this issue and he has suggested an interesting test. You could try using a third party FTDI USB/Serial converter plugged into the RS232 port on the Sitech, thus taking one part out of the equation. This would still leave you connected to a USB port on the Eagle but it could prove useful as the data rate would be reduced making the system more 'noise' resilient.

Further, it was suggested that an external powered USB hub could be used as an alternative to give a potentially stronger comms signal with the normal connection. Sorry, Tom, just kicking ideas around in the hope that something get the mount to act normally at a low level.

Like this, but with an RJ11 for the RS232 port on the Sitech?

image.png.6d9a45d6c9ae368ae42fca094b66b541.png

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20 minutes ago, Tom OD said:

Well in an attempt to take one of the items out of the loop I asked Olly to move the USB from that USB 2.0 "A" connection to the USB 3.0 port. I m hoping that the USB 3.0 is on a different board. I dont know if it is, I sent to mail to primaluce today asking if this is so. I m waiting on a reply from them. Anyway, I cant cycle the 3.0 ports on the Eagle, but I did power cycle the Eagle itself. So it gave small differences when you open the Sitech.exe, in that it either starting saying

That's a great pity that the problem continues with the total change of USB port.

20 minutes ago, Tom OD said:

I was thinking if the USB on the Eagle is an in recoverable state / fault, then how can I connect an external hub to the Eagle at all via a USB port?

I agree - I was thinking that we would use a different port to 'A' for this but your test above pretty much rules that out.........

20 minutes ago, Tom OD said:

I think I have Serial to USB convertors close by. I could send one to Olly. Or buy one from a French supplier to ship to him.

This RS232 lead will require a special connection at the Sitech end, to quote:-

SERIAL PORT CONNECTION:
The serial port is an 8 position modular jack.  Please do not confuse this connector with the motor connectors.  It is adjacent to the power connector/terminal block, and on the opposite end of the controller from the motor connectors.  Even if you don't intend to use a computer to control your telescope, you will need a serial cable to configure the unit. Pin 3 of a laptop or PC is the transmit signal and pin 3 of the controller is the receive signal, so the cable can be wired, pin 2 to pin 2, pin 3 to pin 3, and pin 5 to pin 5.  It is a good idea to jumper pins 1,4 and 6 together, and jumper pins 7 and 8 together (at the 9 pin female connector)  in case special software uses the handshaking on the PC serial port.  See appendix D for a wiring diagram.
If you would like to connect two or more Dual Servo Controllers on the same RS232 communication bus, simply make up a cable as described above, but parallel another 8 position modular jack in parallel with the existing jack.  This will require some soldering.  This cable can also be ordered from Sidereal Technology (or it's representatives).  Also you will have to “give” the second controller another address.  This is described later in the manual.


Note: Mel Bartels Scope II software or Sidereal Technology's ASCOM driver and ServoConfig software do not use hardware handshaking, but if you create special software for the controller, you may have to install the jumpers in the 9 pin female connector listed above.

I can't even be sure that this description pertains exactly to the Sitech II controller but it does have a modular jack. References to '9 Pin' female connector should be ignored as, of course, the Eagle does not have an actual RS232 socket, hence the need for a USB to serial adaptor.

I hope Olly doesn't read this:- what we really need is for Olly to install the Sitech software on his laptop PC and connect it to your mount so that we can for now take the Eagle out of the equation to simply confirm that the mount is working OK. However, that is a big ask as Olly is a self-confessed non-computer kinda guy!

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7 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

Bingo, I've got it!

sitech_controller_4_pin.png.bcc20d1cc50004027f79acdcb65449b5.png

Again, the 9 pin end is not relevant as we would be using a USB to serial adaptor.

Ha ha nice work. I think I saw something along the lines of one of these connectors for sale. I d solder this up myself, and bring it to France. I would not ask Olly to go through all those s/w steps. He prefers the mechanical.

Tom.

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2 hours ago, steppenwolf said:

..... and an independent confirmation - note the warning in red:-

sitech_controller_4_pin_2.png.9ec45b2fa809a26642232e5357a9d9c3.png

So I wonder could I use something like this. I could plug the USB cable from the Eagle / PC into the board, then take an RJ11 cable cut one end and wire it to the Green connector on the board, then plug the other end into the RS232 on the mount.

image.png.ebed4a184f2a0ad798becff3bc52c1e6.png

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