Budget telescope & eyepiece combination

[A_N_other_beginner]

A telescope has been requested for Christmas by my eldest. I've got 3 slightly contradictory considerations - a) chances are it'll only get minimal use before I'm the only one using it, but b) if there is any possibility of the interest sticking I want to be able to impress straight away, and finally c) I can't afford to spend anywhere near as much as I'd like and I recognise I'm going to have to compromise.

My budget is around £150. Various forum posts led me to either the Astromaster 130 EQ as I just don't feel that I can stretch to the Skywatcher Explorer 130P. I'm also led to believe from forums that a 5mm eyepiece would be a sound investment to go with it (as it's f/5, if I've got the logic right.) Would a 5mm eyepiece help with point b) above, and how much extra would I need to spend? If I'm likely to be able to impress a young child with whatever comes in the box then I'm not averse to spending extra on better glass at a later date, but if the interest has already gone before I can afford to upgrade the eyepiece it's a lost cause. Albeit I'll still use it.

I did spot the 130P-DS OTA here which I could probably stretch to, the idea of being able to do some astrophotography definitely appeals. But I'm not sure if I'd need mounts etc to go with that - in which case, it'd be out of budget.

Can anyone advise if I'm on the right track?

 

 

 

[vlaiv]

Hi and welcome to SGL.

Here is my view on this. If scope is to be a present for a child, then I'm not sure EQ mounted scope is a good choice. It can be depending on child's interests - if mechanically oriented and likes to fiddle with things then it can be good, but if not and loss of interest is any concern, then you probably want to skip EQ for the time being. Most beginners find setting up and using EQ mount somewhat confusing and a chore before real fun starts. There is also matter of eyepiece height and position - Newtonian on EQ mount can end up in awkward positions and eyepiece be quite high up.

There is very similar scope within your budget, in my view much better suited for a child (but used by many grown ups to great satisfaction as it is very hassle free design):

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-heritage-130p-flextube.html

It is compact for easy storage, transportable, and the same design, focal length and aperture as Astromaster 130EQ. Depending on needed eyepiece height, you can place it on table, or ground or on something in between. It is easily and intuitively operated - point and look.

130PDS is same class of scope but aimed at different use - it is primarily photographic instrument. It can be used for observations and it will deliver the same performance as two models above (and this does not work both ways, it will be far better at astrophotography), but you will need to purchase mount for it as it is OTA (optical tube assembly) only.

Getting 5mm eyepiece is a good idea, but you need to understand that it will be high power eyepiece, and if not used "properly" it can lead to disappointment. Atmosphere will play major part in using it. When skies are steady and there is no turbulence it will deliver great sharp views, but in opposite case, view can be quite underwhelming - all soft and it will look as if its scope's fault - or that it's due to poor eyepiece. If such conditions are encountered right after purchasing - it can seem like poor investment.

It will mostly be useful on Moon and planets, but some deep sky objects will also benefit from its use.

If you want to purchase 5mm as well, this is probably one to look at:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bst-starguider-eyepieces/bst-starguider-60-5mm-ed-eyepiece.html

Last thing that I want to touch upon is astrophotography. Please be aware that it is expensive hobby and mentioned budget is far from being able to get you even beginner gear. I struggle (probably other members as well) what to recommend to beginners when they inquire about AP setup with far bigger budgets (even 4-5 times as big). If you are really interested in AP, I would recommend that you spend some time investigating topic - how its done, what sort of gear one needs, what are important aspects of it, how much processing is involved, etc - there is plenty to read right here on SGL. There are several books on the topic as well if you find yourself increasingly interested to pursue AP. With time you will be able to get clearer picture of what is involved and how much you want to invest in all of that.

Hope this helps.

[Floater]

The above reply says it all. +1!

[A_N_other_beginner]

That's very useful, thank you.

In relation to use - it'll be me doing any setup each and every time. If it's something I can learn and repeat then I'm not averse to that for an EQ mount - but if it's likely to take a long time each time we want to use it, a simpler alternative might be preferable.
I had dismissed a table top design as the telescope won't be used at home due to local lighting, I had planned to use some nearby fields away from immediate light pollution. I take it a tabletop design can't be tripod mounted? I've got a Manfrotto tripod for my DSLR that is pretty weighty but I don't know how suitable it is for telescope use.

I'll dismiss AP for now, I always thought it would be expensive to get into.
And thanks for the 5mm recommendation.

[steppenwolf]

1 hour ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

I did spot the 130P-DS OTA here which I could probably stretch to, the idea of being able to do some astrophotography definitely appeals. But I'm not sure if I'd need mounts etc to go with that - in which case, it'd be out of budget.

 

For your current budget, astrophotography is unlikely to be successful and you will need to purchase additional (and relatively costly equipment) so for now I really would recommend that you take this out of the equation.

Observational astronomy is  more about light collection than magnification and there is no special relationship between the 'f5' and the '5mm' eyepiece.

For your current budget (did you see what I did there? ? ) your money would indeed be better spent on a Dobsonian reflector  and  Heritage 130P would be much better value than the Astro Master 130EQ as it would be much less problematical to use. However - and I really hate to do this - I would urge you to find the extra funds and consider the Sky-Watcher Skyliner 150P Dobsonian at just over £200 instead as this is a really excellent instrument.

For now, dismiss the 5mm eyepiece and put the money towards the Sky-Watcher Skyliner 150P Dobsonian.

[vlaiv]

I second suggestion for 150P Dobsonian as better and more serious instrument, if budget can be stretched. But beware it is much larger storage wise (and in general, but in field, size difference of the two is not that important).

Size of telescope is real issue. Here are couple of comparison charts so you can put things in perspective:

From this chart, you can see that third scope in top row (N 130/920 - very similar model yo Astromaster 130EQ - same aperture only longer FL) is almost tall as grown up person. Even with tripod legs retracted, eyepiece height can be up to 1.40m high from the ground.

On the other hand, most of Dobsonian mounted scopes (all but largest models) are meant to be used seated - much more comfortable position. 5" "table top" model is still not that small. Look at following chart for dob size comparison:

5" F/5 will probably need some sort of small stand - usually bucket turned upside down, or "milk crate" kind of sturdy box is all that you need to observe comfortably seated. 6" is at a good position for grown up to seat and observe without any sort of additional stand.

[A_N_other_beginner]

Unfortunately budget just can't be stretched that far. If it were over time then yes, I'd be able to do that amount - but alas I need to put something under the Christmas tree, and £200 is too much. Frustratingly.

I think I'm getting confused between the table top and 5" Dobsonian - just to be clear, would the Heritage 130p mentioned above need an actual table, or is it something I could feasibly carry along with a couple of folding chairs and some sort of suitable stand into the countryside for viewing?

I must have misunderstood a previous post in which a relationship/guide was drawn between aperture and eyepiece size.

[vlaiv]

Maybe best thing to do is go to youtube and watch couple of review videos of each scope, like this one for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEs_MMcJ7JA

Or, maybe this one for astromaster eq:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=127&v=zkuV21d9ucg

This will give you perspective on size and level of involvement. There are of course other videos on these particular scopes so you can research further.

As for 5mm eyepiece and F/5, there is a connection, this combination gives 1mm exit pupil and it's right half way up to maximum recommendable magnification for good scope of given aperture.

Maximum magnification for 130mm scope is around x260, and half of that is x130. Focal length of 650mm and 5mm eyepiece will give x130.

1mm exit pupil is as high in magnification as some people will go because of floaters - with smaller exit pupil dust and particles in eye that we don't usually see start to intrude in view - some people are bother by this, other learn to look past it and observe with smaller exit pupils. In this regard, one might say that F/ratio = focal length of eyepiece is "special" - but it's really not. With this model, it happens that 5mm eyepiece while providing benefits of exit pupil and suitable magnification for telescope, also gives magnification that is usable in atmospheric conditions. Most of the time due to seeing effect, one is limited to x100-x200 range (sometimes even x100 looks too blurry), and only on exceptional nights you can push magnifications into and past x200-x300 range, with suitable aperture of course.

Btw, you will not be able to mount Heritage 130 on photo tripod because it is already attached to its base, but I think you can remove it from base (standard vixen dovetail clamp) and then you can put it via suitable head on photo tripod. Not sure how usable setup will be - you need really sturdy and heavy duty tripod for stability, and you also need to invest in mount head that will hold scope and let you maneuver it (and have tripod attachment screw as well).

 

[A_N_other_beginner]

That's probably what I needed to see. Makes sense now. I think a Dobsonian is the way ahead, so I'll look to order the Heritage 130P. Is there anything else I'll need to start off with? I've read bits about collimation but haven't fully wrapped my head around it yet.

[alanjgreen]

2 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

That's probably what I needed to see. Makes sense now. I think a Dobsonian is the way ahead, so I'll look to order the Heritage 130P. Is there anything else I'll need to start off with? I've read bits about collimation but haven't fully wrapped my head around it yet.

1. Don’t worry about the collimation. These little scopes are pretty good at maintaining the mirror positions. Over time, you can do some “star tests” each session and monitor the collimation status. If it’s slightly out then you won’t really notice so don’t worry in the short term.

http://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/feature/how-guide/how-star-test-telescope

2. Download a free app such as Stellarium to help you locate night sky objects.

3. Ask someone to buy the book “turn left at Orion” as an additional Xmas gift. Get the ring bound version that’s designed to take outside. It has 200+ pages of objects, directions to find them and sketches of what you will see at the eyepiece of a small scope.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Turn-Left-Orion-Hundreds-Telescope/dp/0521153972/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0521153972&pd_rd_r=0db989f5-f542-11e8-a8b9-4f5d588cfac6&pd_rd_w=4Ru36&pd_rd_wg=HUN4D&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=1e3b4162-429b-4ea8-80b8-75d978d3d89e&pf_rd_r=W6PAKBBB4KT378VRZCMT&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=W6PAKBBB4KT378VRZCMT

- i still have my copy from years ago! It’s covered in notes and scribbles that I made while using it  

4. Finally buy a small led torch from b&q (I got a new one last week for £3. Paint three coats of red nail varnish on the lens to turn it into a red light torch, you need this to read the book outside in the dark without ruining your eye pupil size.

https://www.diy.com/departments/diall-27lm-plastic-led-black-torch/1370087_BQ.prd

5. Have fun and enjoy the time shared with your child  

Alan

[Geoff Lister]

+2 for the Heritage 130p. As you will see from my signature, I have the 130p and the Astromaster 130EQ-MD. The Astromaster was my 2nd 'scope, and I found it difficult to set up. The Heritage is simple and fast to set up, and as mentioned above, will work on the ground, or as I tend to use it, on a small patio stool or table. The photo, below, shows the mount on a patio stool, and with a few of the simple additions that I have made.

You can use the telescope on a photographic tripod, when fitted with a suitable dovetail clamp, but it rotates the tube by 90 degrees, and most tripods do not have the smooth operation of the dedicated mount.

Geoff

 

[Moonshane]

My advice is a second hand option. A 150mm f5 Newtonian on an AZ4. You should get both within budget.

A wanted ad on here or https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk

might yield results. Feel free to ask advice on here about any offers received.

[Ricochet]

29 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

My advice is a second hand option. A 150mm f5 Newtonian on an AZ4. You should get both within budget.

A wanted ad on here or https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk

might yield results. Feel free to ask advice on here about any offers received.

Like this one?  PIckup near Wrexham if that's of any use @A_N_other_beginner

 

[Moonshane]

Great coincidence!

Yes exactly that. I bet if you could throw in a couple of cheap eyepieces or a finder you'd have a sale. In fact I may have a 25mm plossl I could contribute for the cost of postage if it helps.

[Ricochet]

1 hour ago, Moonshane said:

Great coincidence!

Yes exactly that. I bet if you could throw in a couple of cheap eyepieces or a finder you'd have a sale. In fact I may have a 25mm plossl I could contribute for the cost of postage if it helps.

It's not mine, I just remembered seeing it up for sale. 

[Moonshane]

Ah I see ?

[A_N_other_beginner]

Thanks for the consideration. What would the benefit be of the C6 with AZ4 over a Dobsian style such as the Heritage 130P I'm currently looking at? I appreciate the mount is a significant part of the cost in that link, is the AZ4 easier to use than an EQ mount? I'm trying to see where the pro's and con's are.
I'm certainly open to buying a used but well cared for telescope.

[Ricochet]

18 minutes ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

What would the benefit be of the C6 with AZ4 over a Dobsian style such as the Heritage 130P

The benefit of the AZ4 over the Heritage mount is that it is on a tripod so you do not need anything to raise it up. With a larger dobsonian that sits on the ground this benefit would be negated but the AZ4/C6 might be easier to transport. 

21 minutes ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

is the AZ4 easier to use than an EQ mount?

Yes. Alt/az is more intuitive, but more importantly, an eq mount rotates the telescope so with a Newtonian the focuser can end up in odd positions. With an alt/az mount the focuser will remain in a sensible position at all times. 

[rwilkey]

The BST StarGuiders are cheaper from Alan at Sky's the Limit, found here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1311.R1.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xbst+starguider.TRS0&_nkw=bst+starguider&_sacat=0

[A_N_other_beginner]

I did get the C6-N with AZ4 linked above, so thanks Ricochet for linking it and others for pointing me down that route.

It came with a 20mm eyepiece and I'm wondering what else I should consider adding, and what eyepiece I should be using for what scenario?
 

On the viewing front, I'll be looking to pickup a copy of Turn Left At Orion as suggested but it seems there's a new edition out next month - it makes sense to wait. As a starter for 10, is there anything else I could be using to get me started should the skies be clear enough next week, and any sort of recommended beginners guide for things I need to know for locating things?

[Ricochet]

Congratulations on the new scope.

 The first thing to consider is what you will wear. Make sure you've got decent winter clothes and don't neglect your feet as they will spend the night in contact with the cold ground. You can usually get decent thermal socks pretty cheaply from places like Primark or B&M. 

 If you don't already have it then download Stellarium on your PC for free. This will help you for planning sessions in advance. For when you're out with the scope and just have a phone/tablet I prefer Sky Safari. I believe the cheapest option of version 5 is now free so download that as well. You might also want to consider an app to redden the screen while you're opening the phone even though Sky Safari has a red light mode for when you're using it. 

You might also want to buy a red light torch so that you can add light without ruining your night vision. You can buy specialist ones or you can buy a cheap generic torch and modify it. Painting the lens with nail varnish is a common method. 

After that we can talk about eyepieces. You're usually best off starting with what you have and then making decisions based on that. However, there are a couple of suggestions to consider. Firstly, your scope has a 1.25" focuser so you can get your widest field of view from either a 30-32mm Plossl or a 24mm 68° eyepiece (Explore Scientific or Televue). The Plossl is cheaper but the 24mm/68° will have a wider apparent field and a darker background sky. 

Secondly, at this time of year the main focus will be deep space objects (DSOs) so something with and exit pupil around 2mm would be a good option alongside your 20mm. The 12mm Starguider linked above would be a good choice, or perhaps a 10mm Baader Classic Ortho. The Starguider has a wider field (True and apparent) and will be more comfortable to use but the Ortho is a bit better optically if we're splitting hairs. There's also one in the classifieds at a reasonable price 

 

 

 

[Alan64]

On 21/12/2018 at 01:02, A_N_other_beginner said:

I did get the C6-N with AZ4 linked above, so thanks Ricochet for linking it and others for pointing me down that route.

It came with a 20mm eyepiece and I'm wondering what else I should consider adding, and what eyepiece I should be using for what scenario?
 

On the viewing front, I'll be looking to pickup a copy of Turn Left At Orion as suggested but it seems there's a new edition out next month - it makes sense to wait. As a starter for 10, is there anything else I could be using to get me started should the skies be clear enough next week, and any sort of recommended beginners guide for things I need to know for locating things?

Congratulations, indeed; I think you made a better decision than you realise.  A 150mm f/5 Newtonian is the closest you can get to an all-rounder, in observing practically everything in the sky, at low, medium and high powers; from a low binocular-like 23x, to 200x and beyond, and with a considerable aperture.  I have the same telescope, but branded "Orion", of California...

Yours, however, appears to have a metal focusser, and better than that of plastic as my own.  I've seen a lot of beautiful things with that one, and you will too.

I use 2x and 3x barlows to reach the higher powers with its 750mm focal-length.  The Trapezium of Orion is an especial treat, and at about 188x.  To reach that, I barlow a 12mm with a 3x barlow, and for a simulated 4mm eyepiece...

That's one of the advantages of a barlow, and to keep you from having to observe through eyepieces like this dedicated 4mm instead...

...with its tiny eye-lens and tight eye-relief.

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/antares-x2-achromat-fmc-barlow-lens-125.html

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/antares-x3-achromat-fmc-barlow-lens-125.html

...for examples.  I have both of those myself.

The sky awaits.

[A_N_other_beginner]

Thanks Alan, that's reassuring to hear and definitely the advantage of coming to forums such as these for advice. Cloud cover ruled out it's use last night but I'm hoping tonight there will be some breaks tonight and we'll see if we can start off on something easy. I just need to look up some guides on the practical use of the scope and probably more importantly the AZ4.

I acquired the 10mm BCO mentioned above for DSO's so between that and the 20mm Plossl I've got something to start with. Others will have to be added a bit more slowly as funds allow. I can see a couple of barlows and something wider as mentioned by Ricochet following over the next couple of months though - any thoughts on which I should prioritise?

Thanks again to everyone that's contributed, it was all very well received by my eldest yesterday morning.

[Alan64]

2 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

Thanks Alan, that's reassuring to hear and definitely the advantage of coming to forums such as these for advice. Cloud cover ruled out it's use last night but I'm hoping tonight there will be some breaks tonight and we'll see if we can start off on something easy. I just need to look up some guides on the practical use of the scope and probably more importantly the AZ4.

I acquired the 10mm BCO mentioned above for DSO's so between that and the 20mm Plossl I've got something to start with. Others will have to be added a bit more slowly as funds allow. I can see a couple of barlows and something wider as mentioned by Ricochet following over the next couple of months though - any thoughts on which I should prioritise?

Thanks again to everyone that's contributed, it was all very well received by my eldest yesterday morning.

I would suggest a 32mm Plossl straight away...

https://www.365astronomy.com/32mm-GSO-Plossl-Eyepiece.html

...for your lowest power of 23x.  That would enable you to see the largest portion of the sky possible with the telescope...

https://goo.gl/cjd86V

...for hunting the objects; to get your bearings.  Then, when you've found one of interest, but it's too small...

https://goo.gl/uwjgPg

...you then pop in the 10mm(75x)...

https://goo.gl/dBwSxS

The 32mm would also allow you to simply scan the sky at your leisure, the star-studded fields of the Milky Way, for example; to see the Pleiades in its entirety, and the galaxy in Andromeda mostly...

https://goo.gl/S5qmRC

Star-hopping will be the way to go with the AZ-4.  I use Stellarium to help plan for the hunt; it's freeware, and most capable of enhancing the experience...

https://stellarium.org/

My Voyager I alt-azimuth, illustrated previously, allows me to reach almost 200x with the 150mm f/5, and without excessive shaking and wiggling.  The AZ-4 sports tubular-steel legs, and for improved stability, over those of aluminum as my own sports.  

The Trapezium of Orion, and its ghostly environs, is a must-see...

https://www.cloudynights.com/uploads/monthly_04_2018/post-199816-0-34330200-1523096299.jpg

I do hope I didn't spoil anything with the images, although the images can't hold a candle to a live view through eyepieces.

[A_N_other_beginner]

That's brilliant, thanks. Makes a lot of sense. Here's to hoping for some cloud free nights.