Takahashi scopes???

[steppenwolf]

2 hours ago, TareqPhoto said:

I didn't start a thread here titled with "High end or premium mount", i did it in another forum or site, and it became like a war for me.

We don't allow 'wars' here on SGL so you can post the mount question with no risk of unpleasantness or ridicule.

No reason not to buy a Tak and for imaging, I would recommend the FSQ 106 as it is such a good, reliable all-rounder.

As for the mount, of course you should consider a Mesu 200 - they are popular Europe, have a huge carrying capacity, are very reliable and very reasonably priced for the quality of the engineering. Despite the very low periodic error of these mounts (I have tested mine at about 4 arcseconds peak to peak), they do still require autoguiding. I use mine exclusively in a remote scenario and it works beautifully - it doesn't miss a beat.

However, ask that mount question here, there will be NO WAR just useful comment.

[Waldemar]

I guess you've heard enough positive comments about TAK's, here are a couple of negative ones:

Focuser is just mediocre. To really enjoy a TAK you will have to upgrade the focuser to FeatherTouch.
The thread size is very uncommon and you will have to buy expensive TAK accessories to be able to connect camera, flattener or reducer
The onepoint attachment with a cradle instead of rings is not the most ideal, but easy to change

the choice is all yours...

[TareqPhoto]

37 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

We don't allow 'wars' here on SGL so you can post the mount question with no risk of unpleasantness or ridicule.

No reason not to buy a Tak and for imaging, I would recommend the FSQ 106 as it is such a good, reliable all-rounder.

As for the mount, of course you should consider a Mesu 200 - they are popular Europe, have a huge carrying capacity, are very reliable and very reasonably priced for the quality of the engineering. Despite the very low periodic error of these mounts (I have tested mine at about 4 arcseconds peak to peak), they do still require autoguiding. I use mine exclusively in a remote scenario and it works beautifully - it doesn't miss a beat.

However, ask that mount question here, there will be NO WAR just useful comment.

I want to, but sounds now Mesu 200 is the best choice then, after all i really don't care which brand the mount is, very expensive or just expensive, if people are happy with it and it can carry LOADS and reasonable price then why not, i mean i will not feel that i will miss AP mounts or 10 Micron or Paramount if Mesu 200 will give me more than what i need, in my plan is to buy up to 16" scopes either RC or Newtonian, and those are at around 40-50kgs if i know, so i think Mesu 200 can handle those fine, right?

Nice to know that here you don't get that kind of war discussions, even if my opinion is offending maybe or i don't listen, there they make wars because they want people to follow their advises or choices without doubts, so it is like we don't have choices then, and if we say so then it will be like we are trolling with them, is it the same here too?

[TareqPhoto]

32 minutes ago, Waldemar said:

I guess you've heard enough positive comments about TAK's, here are a couple of negative ones:

Focuser is just mediocre. To really enjoy a TAK you will have to upgrade the focuser to FeatherTouch.
The thread size is very uncommon and you will have to buy expensive TAK accessories to be able to connect camera, flattener or reducer
The onepoint attachment with a cradle instead of rings is not the most ideal, but easy to change

the choice is all yours...

1. Definitely i will change to another focuser either FT or MoonLite, but i will check out motors or autofocuser too just in case.

2. I don't know what do you mean by thread, more explanation and it will be appreciated.

3. Also i don't know that, whatever issues are there i will be willing to solve with whatever accessories needed, i am planning to make something like $5k-8k for the scope alone, so i have room for what extras needed, and i know a vendor where i can buy this Tak from with all accessories needed as i bought the camera and filter wheel from them, so definitely they can guide me for necessary accessories, and it ids also free shipping, and the salesman will assure to choose the tested fined scope copy to send me so i don't send it back for any reasons, what else i can ask for then.

[vlaiv]

Thread means part for screwing on things - like you have on bottom of the eyepiece - where you screw filters. Eyepiece has female thread, and filter has male one. It is characterized by diameter and pitch - pitch is distance between groves.

While astro equipment is not fully "standardized" there are some popular thread sizes - like M48 for filters and imaging, T2 for imaging accessories, etc ... Tak uses very specific one, and it is hard to find adapters that are not Tak made (and expensive).

May I point out something? Just read your post re Mesu 200 (which I agree completely), and compare with your reasoning for Tak scope and not some cheaper but still excellent APO refractor.

[TareqPhoto]

1 hour ago, vlaiv said:

Thread means part for screwing on things - like you have on bottom of the eyepiece - where you screw filters. Eyepiece has female thread, and filter has male one. It is characterized by diameter and pitch - pitch is distance between groves.

While astro equipment is not fully "standardized" there are some popular thread sizes - like M48 for filters and imaging, T2 for imaging accessories, etc ... Tak uses very specific one, and it is hard to find adapters that are not Tak made (and expensive).

May I point out something? Just read your post re Mesu 200 (which I agree completely), and compare with your reasoning for Tak scope and not some cheaper but still excellent APO refractor.

Ah ok, thanks!

Again, for Tak accessories i know the salesman or vendor who can help in everything related to Tak scopes and accessories, sure he will guide me, after all i bought my mono cooled camera and filter wheel from him/them, so definitely they know the stuff definitely, and i will mention your points to them if i decide to buy a Tak from them, and they will guide me, excellent service from them so i don't hesitate to buy from them whatever include an expensive scope, and hope i can do something later so i can show my results in this forum.

[Waldemar]

Vlaiv answered your question perfectly. I will add, the threads used by Takahashi are mostly M61 and M62, no other brands in the trade use those. M52, M68 or M72 are reasonably common. Converters from Takahashi thread to the more common threads are very hard to find if you plan on using accessories that are not Takahashi made. On top of that the original Tak acc. are very expensive compared to other brands.

This all does not mean that I advise against Takahashi, I just want you to know what you will run up against.

edit:
The FeatherTouch focussers have the possibillity to get motorized by various types of motors, depending on the size and type of the focusser. They can be wired or wireless run and automated by FocusMax, which is far more precise than focussing by hand. 4 motors (so 4 different telescopes) can be run on 1 system. I.m.h.o.  the best there is...  https://starizona.com/store/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=MICROTOUCH+AUTOFOCUSER+-+WIRELESS

[RayD]

On 08/11/2018 at 22:57, TareqPhoto said:

Definitely i will change to another focuser either FT or MoonLite, but i will check out motors or autofocuser too just in case.

Feathertouch = YES - Moonlite = NO.

I have the FT on my FSQ106 and it is exquisite, but the Moonlite is most definitely not an upgrade to the standard focuser.

The Mesu200 is a pleasure to use as has been noted several times.  It is a real workhorse of a mount.  I have never had a single glitch with mine and would recommend it at the drop of a hat.  It isn't really a portable mount as such, but it isn't really overly heavy either.  If you are younger and reasonably fit, you could carry and mount it, but I certainly won't be doing that.

Now, Tak vs others.  I can't vouch for Vixen personally, I've not used one, but they do have a very reputation.  However, for imaging I use both a Takahashi FSQ106 and a SW Esprit 100, and I can say, hand on heart, you would have to have a very keen eye to tell the difference between the images.  There is a difference, but it is so small as to be noticeable only if you are looking at figures during analysis, rather than looking at the actual picture.

Maybe I have a particularly good Esprit, who knows, but is there a visual difference in the images that quantifies the price difference?  Absolutely not, in my opinion.  Perhaps if you are imaging in bortle 1 skies the difference may stand out more, but not many of us have that luxury.

[ollypenrice]

A Tak to manufacturer's spec will be an excellent scope. Sadly, though, there have been QC issues with some FSQs reported on the forums and I've seen two myself, hands on, one with terrible collimation as delivered and a tilt problem as well. I would suggest a Google search on this. So, at the moment, I would be wary of buying a new FSQ85 or 106 unless it was understood from the outset that it had to be 'perfect or refund.'

I use two old model FSQ106Ns and rate them highly. However, unless you are going to use  a very large chip you will be spending a fortune to obtain a flat field which you won't be using.

I do not believe that the FSQ85 will cover 35mm format. This is from personal experience of two examples.

The new FSQ, the non-fluorite one, is also very temperature sensitive regarding focus and really needs robotic focus in my view.

I agree with Ray that the focus upgrade should be to Feathertouch and certainly not Moonlite which are unsuitable for imaging because the smooth roller drives the smooth anodised drawtube.

Olly

[gorann]

Just a small comment regarding the Tak threads. If Tareq is buying a Tak and replace the focuser with a Feathertoutch focuser, as he says he may do, then there are no Tak threads at the end of the focuser so the threads is no longer an issue, or have I missed something?

Having said that I believe that an Esprit would be as good as a Tak and you could get two Esprits for the price of one Tak so you could have a double rig (no problem for a Mesu 200) and get twice as much data in the same time, so the quality of the images you can gather in one night would cetrainly be better with two Esprits and one Tak. And a double rig looks really cool?

[TareqPhoto]

I don't know what to say, something telling me that here people aren't in the mind of high end things, Tak AP TEC whatever it doesn't matter, budget does matter, so i don't know why those people many around or even in observatories buying TAK then, i keep mentioning Observatories because they will not buy any less telescopes, and i read the name TAK a lot there beside another names such us PlaneWave or TEC or even 1 meter scope, i don't read the name Vixen or Skywatcher at all, in fact even they get Newtonian more than those refractors of affordable ones.

Don't get me wrong, sounds the only downside of Tak from here is budget only, the tube itself is expensive and all accessories are expensive and upgrading something is expensive, i only follow the people who upgrade really, not people who just said "We don't need to get high end scopes, what we have already are more than enough, so no need to waste more for just slightly better scope that won't see the difference most of the times", i know from experience that people only upgrade to the best, so if anyone upgraded to AP or PlaneWave or Takahashi it means they upgrade to the best, and i only focused on Tak because it has more options as scopes and almost more affordable than PW/TEC/AP which are only few scopes anyway, and i wanted a wide field refractor and not 120-160mm.

[RayD]

26 minutes ago, gorann said:

Just a small comment regarding the Tak threads. If Tareq is buying a Tak and replace the focuser with a Feathertoutch focuser, as he says he may do, then there are no Tak threads at the end of the focuser so the threads is no longer an issue, or have I missed something?

This is true, but you will need to get a custom adaptor made if you want to use all your Takahashi spacers/adaptors and visual back etc.  I had one made by Precise Parts and made it a little longer so I could do away with two spacers.

[TareqPhoto]

24 minutes ago, gorann said:

Just a small comment regarding the Tak threads. If Tareq is buying a Tak and replace the focuser with a Feathertoutch focuser, as he says he may do, then there are no Tak threads at the end of the focuser so the threads is no longer an issue, or have I missed something?

Having said that I believe that an Esprit would be as good as a Tak and you could get two Esprits for the price of one Tak so you could have a double rig (no problem for a Mesu 200) and get twice as much data in the same time, so the quality of the images you can gather in one night would cetrainly be better with two Esprits and one Tak. And a double rig looks really cool?

That is a nice idea too.

Well, my point is, i saw many [to my thinking or calculations] are upgrading to one of those names including a Tak, observatories are using only high end such as PlaneWave and AP and TEC and Tak, they won't buy anything less, didn't hear the name of Vixen or Skywatcher or Stellarvue, so that is for a reason, and to my understanding and i am an engineer, people only upgrade to the best, not less, so if someone has Skywatcher or Vixen or TMB for example and upgraded to a Tak regardless the expenses it means they look for something more no matter what, i even read members who said "I was using Esprit for years, just recently upgraded to a Tak and it was a day and night, i will never look back", this statement isn't like a joke, and he is not an amateur as well, so better than i buy a skywatcher or Vixen dumping nearly 1500-3000 pounds and then i buy again something like a Tak that will be a big waste for me anyway, better to upgrade to high from beginner as long it is possible now.

I do have Canon lenses, different aperture and difference focal length, i can put them into use, i will do that soon because i just recently bought dovetails for lenses and also i bought side by side dovetail, will see, just i don't want to keep all my gear only with cheap affordable items and nothing of high end at least one or two, in fact the name of Tak itself is speaking, i can imaging here in my country if i take out a Tak scope from the bag i can hear the whistles, hehehehe

[steppenwolf]

31 minutes ago, TareqPhoto said:

I don't know what to say, something telling me that here people aren't in the mind of high end things, Tak AP TEC whatever it doesn't matter, budget does matter, so i don't know why those people many around or even in observatories buying TAK then, i keep mentioning Observatories because they will not buy any less telescopes, and i read the name TAK a lot there beside another names such us PlaneWave or TEC or even 1 meter scope, i don't read the name Vixen or Skywatcher at all, in fact even they get Newtonian more than those refractors of affordable ones.

What you are seeing here is honest opinion which is surely what you were asking for? In my earlier thread I said " No reason not to buy a Tak and for imaging, I would recommend the FSQ 106 as it is such a good, reliable all-rounder. " That was because you clearly wanted a Tak and in my opinion, the FSQ 106 is the best of the bunch - note that I did NOT recommend the FSQ 85!

I run from an observatory and produce reasonable images and I don't have a Tak in sight but I do have a William Optics FLT 98 (the best telescope WO ever made) and an Esprit 150, the latter being my 'telescope for life'. We (and that includes me) are not at all anti high end things but we tend not to just throw money at brand names if there is a proven case for a lower cost option that does essentiality the same job. I am VERY fussy about my equipment choices as I want to produce fine images but I know that for example, an Esprit 100 will take images all but indistinguishable from those taken with an equivalent Tak FSQ 106 so personally, I would by the Esprit 100 instead. I am not in the least brand conscience, I buy the correct tools for the job at a sensible cost, no more, no less. I suspect that others are making the suggestions that they are for the same reasons?

[TareqPhoto]

3 minutes ago, RayD said:

This is true, but you will need to get a custom adaptor made if you want to use all your Takahashi spacers/adaptors and visual back etc.  I had one made by Precise Parts and made it a little longer so I could do away with two spacers.

When reading this then i feel all others Tak users are not using their scopes, how did they manage it then? i don't think all of them followed your approach with spacers, i even saw some just plugged their cameras and it worked for them, but don't forget, i will buy the Takahashi from the seller i bought my camera and filters from, and he knows exactly what i have, so he knows what parts i need to connect my camera to, he may provide me those some with free, so i shouldn't be worried much because of some customized accessories, one way or another i will never buy the lens and leave it for dust, i bought my 8" F5 Newtonian on February, just only this month of November i took it out, so almost 8 months, and also now i just found out that i can't connect my coma corrector, which means another wait, i ordered the right adapter, there is nothing impossible, i saw many used Takahashi scopes successfully then why not me, and i thank you very very much telling me about those accessories so once i decide to get from them i will tell them about all parts needed to start using the scope with any camera.

[gorann]

Tareq, when you talk about observatories using Tak and PlaneWave, are you referring to professional observatories or just experienced amateurs that have built their own observatories (like many of us here at SGL)?  Professional observatories (of the type used by universities) almost always use large telescopes and then cannot use brands like Vixen or Skywatcher since they do not make very large telescopes. As far as I know the largest Tak refractor is a 300 mm one, so that would also be a bit small for large professional observatories.

About the person you mention changing from Esprit to Tak and never looked back, you say "is not an amateur". Does that mean that he was a professional astronomer that got paied for doing astrophotography"?

[TareqPhoto]

3 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

What you are seeing here is honest opinion which is surely what you were asking for? In my earlier thread I said " No reason not to buy a Tak and for imaging, I would recommend the FSQ 106 as it is such a good, reliable all-rounder. " That was because you clearly wanted a Tak and in my opinion, the FSQ 106 is the best of the bunch - note that I did NOT recommend the FSQ 85!

I run from an observatory and produce reasonable images and I don't have a Tak in sight but I do have a William Optics FLT 98 (the best telescope WO ever made) and an Esprit 150, the later being my 'telescope for life'. We (and that includes me) are not at all anti high end things but we tend not to just throw money at brand names if there is a proven case for a lower cost option that does essentiality the same job. I am VERY fussy about my equipment choices as I want to produce fine images but I know that for example, an Esprit 100 will take images all but indistinguishable from those taken with an equivalent Tak FSQ 106 so personally, I would by the Esprit 100 instead. I am not in the least brand conscience, I buy the correct tools for the job as a sensible cost, no more, no less. I suspect that others are making the suggestions that they are for the same reasons?

Cool, i will see, i still have time until i can get the budget, i really don't know why i follow one person path, he used TMB92 which was a very fine nice scope, and then Esprit 120 which is in same league of Esprit 100 but slightly longer, and he upgraded to Tak FSQ-106 and he said he couldn't be happier, i don't want to be in his shoes later buying Esprit 100 for 2-3 years or even less than i feel regret as i want to get a Tak but i can't because i missed the opportunity to do it before, he is not stupid unless i can tell him that, why someone move from a TMB and Esprit to a Tak if there is no much difference anyway, he also told me to use something like WO or Stellarvue or Esprit if i can afford it, that was in the past, but i felt like he started with less because he couldn't afford, now i can afford, if i got the budget, then why not for once? and i know people sometimes don't go for the brand name, but the brand name isn't a joke, they got a reputation for a reason, it will be like buying a system, many told me from Takahashi i can get all service and accessories needed and it is proven, they have some cheaper scopes anyway as doublets or even Epsilon 130, and they have more expensive than FSQ106 too, but anyway, it sounds i keep too much thinking about this Tak and not paying attention much to what people are trying to tell/advise me, i will see until the budget time hopefully, i may not get the budget and end up with an Esprit, who knows, hahahaha

[RayD]

23 minutes ago, TareqPhoto said:

When reading this then i feel all others Tak users are not using their scopes, how did they manage it then? i don't think all of them followed your approach with spacers, i even saw some just plugged their cameras and it worked for them, but don't forget, i will buy the Takahashi from the seller i bought my camera and filters from, and he knows exactly what i have, so he knows what parts i need to connect my camera to, he may provide me those some with free, so i shouldn't be worried much because of some customized accessories, one way or another i will never buy the lens and leave it for dust, i bought my 8" F5 Newtonian on February, just only this month of November i took it out, so almost 8 months, and also now i just found out that i can't connect my coma corrector, which means another wait, i ordered the right adapter, there is nothing impossible, i saw many used Takahashi scopes successfully then why not me, and i thank you very very much telling me about those accessories so once i decide to get from them i will tell them about all parts needed to start using the scope with any camera.

No he was talking about having changed to a FT focuser.  I think on the latest model it is actually slightly larger, so you may not need the adaptor, but on the ED, like mine, the adaptor was needed.

The stock focuser is actually pretty good, and doesn't need upgrading unless you have a specific issue with it, which I thought I did but it turned out not to be.

All the parts for the correct spacing are readily available, and the benefit of the design, if you are not using a reducer or extender, is that the spacing is determined by focus, so once in focus you are spaced correctly.

As mentioned by Olly, the FSQ106 does have a particularly large image circe, 88mm from memory, so is likely to give you a very flat field across even the largest of sensors.  I use mine with and APS-H sensor and, as expected, it has no problems at all.

[TareqPhoto]

Just now, gorann said:

Tareq, when you talk abour observatories using Tak and PlaneWave, are you referring to professional observatories or just experienced amateurs that have built their own observatories (like many of us here at SGL)?  Professional observatories (of the type used by universities) almost always use large telescopes and then cannot use brands like Vixen or Skywatcher since they do not make very large telescopes. As far as I know the largest Tak refractor is a 300 mm one, so that would also be a bit small for large professional observatories.

About the person you mention changing from Esprit to Tak and never looked back, you say "is not an amateur". Does that mean that he was a professional astronomer that got paied for doing astrophotography"?

I am talking about professional observatories, not personal yards ones, and they do have large and small scopes as well, and of small they do use Takahashi scopes, why not Skywatcher 150 for example or Vixen or even GSO 16" RC for example? but i saw Tak FSQ106 and TOA130 within those professional observatories, what you will say about it then?

That person isn't a professional who gait paid, but he is experienced enough, used the scopes for many years before he can upgrade, and he won't upgrade if he has experienced telling him that a Tak scope isn't much anyway, what kind of experience is that?

[TareqPhoto]

2 minutes ago, RayD said:

No he was talking about having changed to a FT focuser.  I think on the latest model it is actually slightly larger, so you may not need the adaptor, but on the ED, like mine, the adaptor was needed.

The stock focuser is actually pretty good, and doesn't need upgrading unless you have a specific issue with it, which I thought I did but it turned out not to be.

All the parts for the correct spacing are readily available, and the benefit of the design, if you are not using a reducer or extender, is that the spacing is determined by focus, so once in focus you are spaced correctly.

As mentioned by Olly, the FSQ106 does have a particularly large image circe, 88mm from memory, so is likely to Gove you a very flat field across even the larges sensors.  I use mine with and APS-H sensor and, as expected, it has no problems at all.

Don't forget, there are few model of FSQ, 85 known as not that much great as 106, and 106 there is N model and EDX, EDX itself i saw III discontinued and there is version 4, so i don't think those versions are getting worse or lesser, version 4 i think they may fixed some issues or bugs from previous models, i will buy EDX4, not 106N or EDX3, latest version is always has kind of improvements over the old models which were so nice as well.

That image circle is one main factor to me, i do have full frame cameras, and i am also planning to buy a large sensor camera too, this has to be a reason to know exactly what i will buy, i didn't forget about this point really, so i don't want to have some drawbacks later with an affordable scope because of a large sensor camera, and sure yo will say that is not an issue even with a small image circle, i better be in safe side and ready then.

[gorann]

One reason that professional observatories use Tak when they need smaller teleskopes could be that money is not an issue for them (especially when they buy small scopes) and they go for the brands they know about and used before. I doubt they read threads on forums like SGL before they buy such scopes or read tests where Esprit and Vixen have been compared to more expensive brands. What I try to say is that you are more likely to get the best advice from forums like SGL and Cloudy Nights than from seeing what professional observatories happen to use.

[RayD]

Just to clarify a point, there is a difference between the SW Esprit and the Takahashi FSQ106 in both build quality and performance.  My point was that is is not sufficiently different for an average amateur, as most of us are, to notice the difference in an image on the screen given the large difference in price.  

If you are a professional, selling images, and are processing to the finest detail in order to do so, then the Tak absolutely is the better choice without doubt.

It is very difficult to quantify extra cost on quality, but the FSQ106 is better built than the Esprit, and this is where some of the cost goes.

If your primary concern is budget, then you will get excellent performance from an Esprit, no doubts, they are superb performers and pretty much unbeatable in a bang for bucks comparison.  However, if you want the next step up, and would like the finer detail in the build quality of the Tak, and the slight but definite edge the optics have over the Esprit, then the FSQ106 is again difficult to beat.  I got one because I wanted one, not because the Esprit was lacking in any way.

 

[dweller25]

@TareqPhoto

Sounds like you want a Tak 106 on a Mesu 200 - nice setup ?

ollypenrice save you some great info ?

[TareqPhoto]

5 minutes ago, RayD said:

Just to clarify a point, there is a difference between the SW Esprit and the Takahashi FSQ106 in both build quality and performance.  My point was that is is not sufficiently different for an average amateur, as most of us are, to notice the difference in an image on the screen given the large difference in price.  

If you are a professional, selling images, and are processing to the finest detail in order to do so, then the Tak absolutely is the better choice without doubt.

It is very difficult to quantify extra cost on quality, but the FSQ106 is better built than the Esprit, and this is where some of the cost goes.

If your primary concern is budget, then you will get excellent performance from an Esprit, no doubts, they are superb performers and pretty much unbeatable in a bang for bucks comparison.  However, if you want the next step up, and would like the finer detail in the build quality of the Tak, and the slight but definite edge the optics have over the Esprit, then the FSQ106 is again difficult to beat.  I got one because I wanted one, not because the Esprit was lacking in any way.

 

Great, you want, me too, and i know how great is Esprit anyway, but a Tak is better, so i take better then.

[TareqPhoto]

1 minute ago, dweller25 said:

@TareqPhoto

Sounds like you want a Tak 106 on a Mesu 200 - nice setup ?

ollypenrice save you some great info ?

Definitely, why not, hope this is what will happen, who knows, will see.

Thanks!