First scope! 4se or 6se? Or something else?

[Jojo204]

Hi guys! I'm Jojo and have recently joined the SGL community and think it's awesome to have a whole community for people who enjoy the same things as I do! I So, as stated above, I am looking to buy my first scope! (Ooh the excitement! ?)I have always been interested in space and the universe and wanted to explore it just a bit more than from my eyes. I have done a bit of research and have narrowed it down as far as I can. I have seen some other 'first scope' posts on here and know what you guys want to hear from me so I've tried my best to make it easy for you! I would mainly like to observe and image DSOs but I know how much that frustrates you guys so I am more interested in imaging. However I've learnt that Refractors are the way to go for imaging and that a pretty good one would take up all my budget. My budget being up to £450 and can stretch up to £530 if worth it. This is why I'm going for a reflector, (as I said I like observing just as much). I would like to take casual pictures from time to time and get an alright shot of DSOs, but nothing too professional or detailed. I am also pretty good at post-processing that'll hopefully make it a little better. If there is a reflector however that is better than others at AP then please mention it. Anyway, I'm looking at a 4" or 6" as they fit my price range and I don't want to go to 8" or 10" just yet. To all of those wanting to shout 'GET A 8" DOB', wait. I haven't heard much talk about a 5" so I assume they aren't all that popular. Finally, I want it to be a GoTo/Computerised scope as I intend to use it frequently for casual sessions. Here are the details on how I would use the scope: I would use it mainly from home (so it doesn't matter if it's fairly big), although I would take it out maybe once/twice a year. I would like to be able to see DSOs, especially Supernova Nebulae (they're my favourite). I have also always had a like for Saturn so an ok view of it would be nice, although this isn't a very big factor. (Be able to make out the rings and very little planetary detail). I wouldn't need to carry it on any flights of stairs as it would stay on the bottom floor anyway. So I've narrowed down my search to the Celestron 4SE and 6SE. Again the 5SE seems a bit forgotten haha so some clarity on that would be good. I am going to America very shortly however and figured the 4SE would be about £90 cheaper, which is a bonus, but that is if I go for this scope. I also had a look around the 127SLT and 130SLT and like the look of those too. They are slightly older models but they look promising. I want to stick to Celestron, Orion or Meade as I had a look and SkyWatcher scopes aren't readily available here. I live in the west country in Somerset, which unfortunately does have some light pollution, but the Exmoor in Devon has fairly low levels so that would be an ideal place for it. About transportation, I have an SUV that would be able to fit an unassembled scope pretty easy. I would ideally like to purchase an extra good quality eyepiece, but again that depends on how much is leftover from my budget. For photography I heard an Equatorial Wedge is almost necessary. I know the 4SE has a built-in wedge but heard it's pretty useless so I wouldn't take that into consideration. I'm still quite confused on how a wedge helps your photography however, so a little definition would be awesome. I've looked at some wedges for the 6SE and 8SE and they're quite expensive, so I don't plan on getting one just yet. I had an awesome deal recently for a pre-owned 8SE for £552 and I went to check it and my mate (who is a telescope expert haha) said it was in almost perfect condition, it only needed a little collimation or something. Unfortunately I skipped the offer as I didn't want to buy before doing enough research and be disappointed with it. Again I don't really mind what mount the scope is on, as long as it is not a Dobsonian mount. For some reason I just don't like them mounts ?‍♂️. CCD Cameras are another thing I was curious about. I don't really want to buy one but would like to know exactly the benefits to a regular DSLR and maybe some links to good ones. Finally, I want to mention that I'm not one of those people who get really excited to see a Nebula and then one the scope aligns and I notice it's faint and grey get disappointed. I know to expect that so won't be disappointed and can process and add colour to it later. 

So that's it, hope it didn't drag too long haha and last thing, if any of you have some sample pictures from the 4SE/6SE or 127SLT/130SLT or if you're mentioning a different scope then from that, please post it as I haven't found many photos that tell me what it was taken from! 

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your answers!

- Jojo ?

[Mr niall]

If at all interested in imaging DSO’s then please discount the 4se, or any Mak. The maksutov cassegrain design has a very long focal length making it spectacular for lunar, planets and high magnification work but almost the exact opposite of what you want for DSO imaging.

Wedge: the Earth is tilted at 23.5 degrees, so the axis that the stars move across the night sky is tilted. For photography you”ll find you take loads of pictures and stack them (to reduce the signal to noise ratio). The wedge aligns the tilt of the earth to the tilt of the sky, without it, you’ll find that images won’t line up perfectly on top of each other - a phenomenon called field rotation. Not the end of the world but not as good as something that is equatorially aligned.

I wouldn’t discount skywatcher -why not  just buy online it’ll save you a fortune.

But as others will tell you, those are some big aspirations with your budget.

happy hunting.

[Peter Drew]

First Light Optics are near you and carry most Skywatcher telescope models.    ?

[Cosmic Geoff]

If you want a route to a serious DSO imaging setup, get the 130 newt on the SLT mount and save up for a heavy duty equatorial GoTo mount. You may have to modify the 130 or trade it later for a 130PDS or a refractor.  The 4SE (a Mak) and the 6SE (a SCT) are nice scopes, as is the 5SE. Note that the 4SE and 5SE have the same mount, and the 6SE has the same mount as the 8SE. But they are narrow field scopes.   They will work well for imaging planets.

Or resign yourself to eventually having multiple scopes and mounts - e.g. a 5SE for visual and grab'n go, and an expensive mount, expensive refractor and expensive accessories for imaging. Imagers always recommend the book "Making Every Photon Count."

[Jojo204]

23 hours ago, Mr niall said:

If at all interested in imaging DSO’s then please discount the 4se, or any Mak. The maksutov cassegrain design has a very long focal length making it spectacular for lunar, planets and high magnification work but almost the exact opposite of what you want for DSO imaging.

Wedge: the Earth is tilted at 23.5 degrees, so the axis that the stars move across the night sky is tilted. For photography you”ll find you take loads of pictures and stack them (to reduce the signal to noise ratio). The wedge aligns the tilt of the earth to the tilt of the sky, without it, you’ll find that images won’t line up perfectly on top of each other - a phenomenon called field rotation. Not the end of the world but not as good as something that is equatorially aligned.

I wouldn’t discount skywatcher -why not  just buy online it’ll save you a fortune.

But as others will tell you, those are some big aspirations with your budget.

happy hunting.

Thanks for the reply and info on the wedge, I was sceptical about ordering these online in case of damage but it should be fine!

[Jojo204]

23 hours ago, Peter Drew said:

First Light Optics are near you and carry most Skywatcher telescope models.    ?

??

[Jojo204]

10 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

If you want a route to a serious DSO imaging setup, get the 130 newt on the SLT mount and save up for a heavy duty equatorial GoTo mount. You may have to modify the 130 or trade it later for a 130PDS or a refractor.  The 4SE (a Mak) and the 6SE (a SCT) are nice scopes, as is the 5SE. Note that the 4SE and 5SE have the same mount, and the 6SE has the same mount as the 8SE. But they are narrow field scopes.   They will work well for imaging planets.

Or resign yourself to eventually having multiple scopes and mounts - e.g. a 5SE for visual and grab'n go, and an expensive mount, expensive refractor and expensive accessories for imaging. Imagers always recommend the book "Making Every Photon Count."

As I mentioned earlier I am not looking into serious deep-sky photography yet. I plan to have more advanced telescopes within the next 2 years but as this is my first, I want to get to grips with the basics. I am ok with amateur results haha and what would be really helpful would be a sample photo from the 6SE and 130SLT of any DSO, just haven't found any yet. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

1 hour ago, Jojo204 said:

 what would be really helpful would be a sample photo from the 6SE and 130SLT of any DSO, just haven't found any yet.

 

I think that's your answer.   Looks like few people take pictures of DSO's with these models and find the results worth posting.  For one thing, both have alt-azimuth mounts, which restrict the length of exposure you can do before the effects of image rotation become noticeable.  130mm Newtonians are successfully used for imaging, but that does not mean that the Celestron 130SLT Nexstar package is suitable. The mount is alt-azimuth and wobbly, and the telescope probably not modified for getting a camera into focus.

With a budget of £450, you could get a lightweight equatorial or wedged GoTo mount and mount a DSLR camera directly on it.  Or get an affordable telescope outfit designed for visual use as your starter.  Hang a camera on it and you will, I imagine, see why most DSO imagers use the expensive kit they use. ?

[Jojo204]

On 06/11/2018 at 23:26, Cosmic Geoff said:

which restrict the length of exposure you can do before the effects of image rotation become noticeable. 

Could you give me an idea of how long an exposure would be possible before these effects? Also I had a look at the ED80 and it has great photography reviews but unfortunately it’s out of my budget. 

[Mr niall]

To be honest with an alt az mount of any sort, or any unguided mount you’d be happy with exposure up to two mins max so you’d probably not notice anything up to about 400mm. If you have a look at “astrophotography on the go” it has loads of great info on these sort of questions. It’s a great book I think it might be the perfect investment for you.

[Jojo204]

14 hours ago, Mr niall said:

To be honest with an alt az mount of any sort, or any unguided mount you’d be happy with exposure up to two mins max so you’d probably not notice anything up to about 400mm. If you have a look at “astrophotography on the go” it has loads of great info on these sort of questions. It’s a great book I think it might be the perfect investment for you.

Ok I’ll have a look, thanks!

[Jojo204]

UPDATE: 

So I've done more research and have decided I'm going to go with a SCT! I heard that they do both observing and photography decently instead of just one perfectly. This rules out the 4se of course as it's a mak so it leaves me with the 6SE or 5SE. Now if I go for the 6SE, it won't leave me with much to spend on accessories at all, and I'm interested in a OIII/light pollution filter (as I live in a Level 3-5 Light pollution zone) and an extra eyepiece. So would a stock 6SE be better than a 5SE with upgraded eyepiece and some clip-on filters for my DSLR? I understand that the 5SE has the same mount as the 4SE and I'm worried it may not support the extra weight of my camera (510g). If there are any notable Newts under £450 however, please do mention them as they don't look that promising, but I think I'll go with a 5SE or 6SE only as they're available in my area for a good price. 

Thanks, I look forward to your replies!

[JG777]

If you have decided on SCT go with the 6, the extra aperture will be very useful to you. You can upgrade accessories at a later date when you know what you need. Saves the hassle of a scope upgrade and always wondering and possibly regretting you never got the 6.  The mount for the SE 6 is better quality as well in a few areas. A dew shield should be your first accessory and maybe a Tracer battery or similar for power. 

[Jojo204]

32 minutes ago, JG777 said:

If you have decided on SCT go with the 6, the extra aperture will be very useful to you. You can upgrade accessories at a later date when you know what you need. Saves the hassle of a scope upgrade and always wondering and possibly regretting you never got the 6.  The mount for the SE 6 is better quality as well in a few areas. A dew shield should be your first accessory and maybe a Tracer battery or similar for power. 

Oh ok, what about a wedge though? I heard the 5SE amount has a built in one, although apparently it’s not very good…

[Cosmic Geoff]

41 minutes ago, Jojo204 said:

Oh ok, what about a wedge though? I heard the 5SE amount has a built in one, although apparently it’s not very good…

The wedge is used for deep-space long exposure astrophotography.  I have the 6/8SE mount and I do not consider it at all suitable for attempting long exposure photography.  The drive is simply not precise enough. In short, forget the wedges.

BTW, the 4" Mak will be just as suitable as a SCT for photography (they are a similar catadroptic concept with a wide range of focus), except for being smaller.

[Jojo204]

15 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

The wedge is used for deep-space long exposure astrophotography.  I have the 6/8SE mount and I do not consider it at all suitable for attempting long exposure photography.  The drive is simply not precise enough. In short, forget the wedges.

BTW, the 4" Mak will be just as suitable as a SCT for photography (they are a similar catadroptic concept with a wide range of focus), except for being smaller.

Oh ok, I think the 5SE would be good for me then as even though its wedge isn’t very good, it still has one and it also has a smaller focal length than the 4se and 6SE which I want to capture some larger Nebulae. What’s the longest exposure you think I could get away with, without noticing field rotation using a 5SE or 6SE?

[Cosmic Geoff]

1 minute ago, Jojo204 said:

Oh ok, I think the 5SE would be good for me then as even though its wedge isn’t very good, it still has one and it also has a smaller focal length than the 4se and 6SE which I want to capture some larger Nebulae. What’s the longest exposure you think I could get away with, without noticing field rotation using a 5SE or 6SE?

As I said, forget the wedges. If you want to image nebulae effectively you need completely different kit.  I suggest you get the book "Making Every Photon Count" which all the imagers recommend and which will answer your questions.

[happy-kat]

There is a thread the No 'EQ" DSO Challenge, a good read you'll find it if you search for Q200.

A couple members are imaging within the capabilities of the 6/8 SE mount without a wedge but not using the telescope but either a camera and lens or camera with short refractor. Altaz mounts work in tiny left right up down movements so object stays in field of view but rotates, if imaging then your restriction is how long before field rotation becomes apparent. With the 6SE probably a few seconds with a camera lens much nearer 60 seconds depending on if wide field or slightly zoom.

Your eye needs aperture to see but a camera doesn't so much so don't feel you have to use the telescope to capture DSO as some are very large.

Before you buy anything try to understand what you are buying and why so your budget is used wisely to go further.

 

[Jojo204]

5 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

As I said, forget the wedges. If you want to image nebulae effectively you need completely different kit.  I suggest you get the book "Making Every Photon Count" which all the imagers recommend and which will answer your questions.

I will read it ?

[Jojo204]

4 hours ago, happy-kat said:

There is a thread the No 'EQ" DSO Challenge, a good read you'll find it if you search for Q200.

A couple members are imaging within the capabilities of the 6/8 SE mount without a wedge but not using the telescope but either a camera and lens or camera with short refractor. Altaz mounts work in tiny left right up down movements so object stays in field of view but rotates, if imaging then your restriction is how long before field rotation becomes apparent. With the 6SE probably a few seconds with a camera lens much nearer 60 seconds depending on if wide field or slightly zoom.

Your eye needs aperture to see but a camera doesn't so much so don't feel you have to use the telescope to capture DSO as some are very large.

Before you buy anything try to understand what you are buying and why so your budget is used wisely to go further.

 

Oh ok thanks

[Jojo204]

6 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

As I said, forget the wedges. If you want to image nebulae effectively you need completely different kit.  I suggest you get the book "Making Every Photon Count" which all the imagers recommend and which will answer your questions.

Also as I said I’m free to change but want to know if it would fit my budget! And if it did, what possible assembly

[Jojo204]

FINAL UPDATE:

So I'm making my final decision before purchasing and have three routes I can go. I have put them in order starting with the most likely route.

1.  Stock Celestron Nexstar 6SE - I'm thinking this is the best option to go with and to save up for an HEQ5 mount I can add in the near future. This would get rid of the need for an apparently useless wedge and I have seen a few people do this.

2. Celestron Nexstar 5SE with Extra Eyepieces - This would be second as I am getting a good offer for one at £469 Brand New. It would leave me with budget for some eyepieces and it will have the not-so-good wedge. But the mount doesn't seem that good and compared to option #1 I think it wont be as good.

3. Skywatcher 200p with EQ5 - I am most unsure about this route but included it as it's an EQ Newt within my budget. However this is a non-go-to scope and wouldn't want something to go wrong while trying to motorize it.

So these are my routes, and I'm looking to order in the next 3 days.

 

Thanks!