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130 Reflector vs 102mm Refractor as Portable DSO Hunter


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I'm trying to make up my mind on a new portable telescope to get to dark skies (currently have a pretty immobile 8inch Dob in light polluted London). 

After a lot of research I've settled on two but can't make my mind up so would love some opinions! My primary interest is in visual observation of DSO's as I get good views of our solar system from my Dob. 

Basically I've landed on the Skywatcher Heritage 130p vs the Bresser Messier AR-102XS/460. 

I think my fundamental question is, am I going to see more with the Newtonian? In theory it's a no brainer as the larger aperture would suggest that, but I've read various articles that suggest between the two apertures of the newt vs refractor, and taking into account things like light loss from two mirrors as well as the vane holding the secondary mirror in the newt, there might actually not be much in it!

Skywatcher's specs - https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-heritage-130p-flextube.html

Refractor's specs - https://www.bresser.de/en/Astronomy/Bresser-Messier-AR-102xs-460-Hexafoc-Optical-Tube.html

The Skywatcher seems genuinely awesome but the 2 inch EP potential in the Bresser is appealing, plus it is a tad smaller for travel. 

Thoughts and experiences very much welcome! 

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Heritage 130 will have light gathering close to 118mm refractor, so while it is less than 130mm, it is still more than 102mm of 4" refractor.

Will this difference matter? Well 34% more light, yes I think you would see a difference, small but it would be noticeable.

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Depends on your travel options but I would look at making your 8" Dob less immobile if at all possible.

TBH I would happily use a small set up in London but when at dark skies I want aperture. For me, If one is making the effort to get to dark skies one should make it as worthwhile as possible.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Heritage 130 will have light gathering close to 118mm refractor, so while it is less than 130mm, it is still more than 102mm of 4" refractor.

Will this difference matter? Well 34% more light, yes I think you would see a difference, small but it would be noticeable.

Good to know, thank you - I think it has the edge although maybe not by as much as I'd hoped. 

2 minutes ago, swamp thing said:

Depends on your travel options but I would look at making your 8" Dob less immobile if at all possible.

TBH I would happily use a small set up in London but when at dark skies I want aperture. For me, If one is making the effort to get to dark skies one should make it as worthwhile as possible.

 

 

Yes, agreed to a point and I definitely went about this the wrong way round originally!  There are times I can get the larger Dob around in the car but I'm really looking for something I can get in a backpack or take on a plane - affordable (under £300) but with max aperture. 

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20 hours ago, alex1978 said:

something I can get in a backpack or take on a plane

The mount for the Heritage 130P is a very difficult object to get in aircraft-friendly bags. The main part of the base is roughly 14" square by 3" thick, and the upright is about 14" high and 4" thick. Although robust-enough for general handling, the OTA may require a tweak to the collimation after a plane journey. This is my backpack setup, with the Skymax mount and (very robust) 127mm MCT.

1115002925_SkymaxBackpack-Annotated(R).jpg.407d802a375201030800d7a12264aa81.jpg

Geoff

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Ive no experience of the Bresser but generally would go for the refractor, as its much more user friendly and very capable as a dso scope. Also, if it really is a true ED it will give much more pleasing views of rich star fields and clusters than the Newtonian, essentially free of any CA and will offer a wider true field. Ideal for relaxed sweeping of dso's and comets! It's also more rugged and should never need collimating, and if its optical figure is good it should reach mag 13 and power up to X200 or more. With a quality eyepiece such as a 20mm Nagler or similar, the 102 refractor will leave the 130mm Newt standing on objects like M42, M45, NGC 884 & 869 and M31, 32 & 110 and many more.

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As much as I like newts for aperture I think if looking for a short 5" ish scope you'd do worse than 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-120t-ota.html

It's cheap, excellent on wide fields and doubles and also a great solar scope with a wedge. 

More aperture is better but this would be a good buy I think.

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18 hours ago, Geoff Lister said:

The mount for the Heritage 130P is a very difficult object to get in aircraft-friendly bags. The main part of the base is roughly 14" square by 3" thick, and the upright is about 14" high and 4" thick. Although robust-enough for general handling, the OTA may require a tweak to the collimation after a plane journey. This is my backpack setup, with the Skymax mount and (very robust) 127mm MCT.

Geoff

Thanks Geoff - great setup you have there! I was thinking of replacing the base with a sturdy tripod. I had actually considered a 127 Mak a while ago but think the wider views of the dob clinch it for me. 

17 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Ive no experience of the Bresser but generally would go for the refractor, as its much more user friendly and very capable as a dso scope. Also, if it really is a true ED it will give much more pleasing views of rich star fields and clusters than the Newtonian, essentially free of any CA and will offer a wider true field. Ideal for relaxed sweeping of dso's and comets! It's also more rugged and should never need collimating, and if its optical figure is good it should reach mag 13 and power up to X200 or more. With a quality eyepiece such as a 20mm Nagler or similar, the 102 refractor will leave the 130mm Newt standing on objects like M42, M45, NGC 884 & 869 and M31, 32 & 110 and many more.

Thanks Mike - good advice. I'm interested that the 102 refractor would leave the Newt in the dust for such objects - is this primarily a question of contrast? Unfortunately the Bresser is not an APO. From what I understand, the ED is the only way to get a serviceable image on such a short focal length. This is food for thought though - I'd just assumed the larger aperture on the Dob would be better. 

17 hours ago, Moonshane said:

As much as I like newts for aperture I think if looking for a short 5" ish scope you'd do worse than 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-120t-ota.html

It's cheap, excellent on wide fields and doubles and also a great solar scope with a wedge. 

More aperture is better but this would be a good buy I think.

Thanks Moonshane - a good looking telescope but probably just a little too big for my needs. Would love the option of taking on a plane in hand luggage and I think that might be outside the allowance. 

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I just got Bresser 102xs f4.5 the other day. While it is kind of plasticky compared to Altair Astro and Vixen refractor it looks like it's well built. The finder is funny to say the least lol. I bought it used and the focuser had kind of jump shift in travel - easily solvable by adjusting the screws at the bottom. It's no 2.5" R&P from Altair but it's pretty smooth for a 200 or so Pounds scope when new. 102xs is imo much more portable than any 100mm+ newtonian if that's what you're after.

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18 minutes ago, heliumstar said:

I just got Bresser 102xs f4.5 the other day. While it is kind of plasticky compared to Altair Astro and Vixen refractor it looks like it's well built. The finder is funny to say the least lol. I bought it used and the focuser had kind of jump shift in travel - easily solvable by adjusting the screws at the bottom. It's no 2.5" R&P from Altair but it's pretty smooth for a 200 or so Pounds scope when new. 102xs is imo much more portable than any 100mm+ newtonian if that's what you're after.

Thanks - great to hear first hand experience with this scope. Have you had a chance to look through it yet? Thoughts? 

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Unfortunately no look through it during the night. Clouds and clouds and clouds. The truth is I bought this for use with a camera for DSO from my light polluted balcony. We'll see how it goes. Will of course check it visually as well and report.

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10 minutes ago, heliumstar said:

Unfortunately no look through it during the night. Clouds and clouds and clouds. The truth is I bought this for use with a camera for DSO from my light polluted balcony. We'll see how it goes. Will of course check it visually as well and report.

Cool - would be very interested to know! 

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"Basically I've landed on the Skywatcher Heritage 130p vs the Bresser Messier AR-102XS/460".

I have both of these scopes. 

The 130P has the advantage of aperture. Both scopes need next to no maintaining (small Dobs rarely need collimation), and Frac's simply look after themselves.

The 130P is a lot cheaper than the 102.

I bought the 102 to use with my Quark filter for Ha solar observing.

The Bresser AR102 xs is a lovely quality build. The finder scope etc are very cheaply made and plasticky so need upgrading.

The only issue i have (as others do) with the 130P is the focuser, but that easily solved. 

So, im gonna say for a "Grab n Go", the Heritage 130P is the best option. 

The R&P focuser on the 102 is SWEET.

 

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18 hours ago, alex1978 said:

I was thinking of replacing the base with a sturdy tripod. I had actually considered a 127 Mak a while ago but think the wider views of the dob clinch it for me. 

I use the 127mm Mak most of the time, but if I want the wider views, then the Heritage 130P OTA will fit on the Skymax mount; and because it has the focuser on the top, I can shorten the tripod, giving greater rigidity. I use a 32mm Plossl eyepiece to give maximum FOV on both OTAs.

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11 hours ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

"Basically I've landed on the Skywatcher Heritage 130p vs the Bresser Messier AR-102XS/460".

I have both of these scopes. 

The 130P has the advantage of aperture. Both scopes need next to no maintaining (small Dobs rarely need collimation), and Frac's simply look after themselves.

The 130P is a lot cheaper than the 102.

I bought the 102 to use with my Quark filter for Ha solar observing.

The Bresser AR102 xs is a lovely quality build. The finder scope etc are very cheaply made and plasticky so need upgrading.

The only issue i have (as others do) with the 130P is the focuser, but that easily solved. 

So, im gonna say for a "Grab n Go", the Heritage 130P is the best option. 

The R&P focuser on the 102 is SWEET.

 

Thanks so much Paul - really useful hearing from someone with experience of both. I'm going for the 130p. It seems perfect for what I want.  

3 hours ago, Geoff Lister said:

I use the 127mm Mak most of the time, but if I want the wider views, then the Heritage 130P OTA will fit on the Skymax mount; and because it has the focuser on the top, I can shorten the tripod, giving greater rigidity. I use a 32mm Plossl eyepiece to give maximum FOV on both OTAs.

Another plus for the 130p. I've stumbled across the epic thread on Cloudynights that's currently 3220 posts long (!) talking about the sister scope in the US, the AWB OneSky - it seems like a lot of telescope for the money. And ah yes, eyepieces - a whole new world of research and confusion!!

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  • 1 month later...
15 hours ago, happy-kat said:

This link takes to a post with two links to two photo tripod mounted heritage 130p OTA solutions.

link here

Awesome - that was my plan as I want to get this scope as mobile as possible. I actually have the same tripod in one of those links (this post) - I had a go mounting it to that but found the tripod head quite frustrating. Planning on replacing with on of these when the budget allows! https://www.altairastro.com/Starwave-Mini-AZ-Mount.html

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9 hours ago, alex1978 said:

Awesome - that was my plan as I want to get this scope as mobile as possible. I actually have the same tripod in one of those links (this post) - I had a go mounting it to that but found the tripod head quite frustrating. Planning on replacing with on of these when the budget allows! https://www.altairastro.com/Starwave-Mini-AZ-Mount.html

TS also have that mount with all the parts available separately instead of as a bundle. It might be cheaper if you don't need all the bits. 

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