First light frustration.

[vlebo]

Last night was the first time I have used both my scopes for a long session since I got them six weeks ago. I have an Equinox 120 and a Flextube 300. I first used the Equinox with a Pentax 30 XW, lots of stars with very crisp views right across the field. Finally saw M31 for the first time not using binoculars and all I saw was a slightly larger smudge than I have been seeing with my binos. So I quickly put in a Meade 4000 12mm eyepiece and all I saw was a slightly larger smudge. So I thought the Equinox may be better for Planetary use then got out the Flextube 300 with the Pentax and again a smudge a little larger than I see with my binos and the same with 15mm ang 6 mm eyepieces just slightly larger everytime but no real detail.

And being a spectacle wearer , really struggled to see anything with 10mm or less eyepieces.

Where are the dust lanes and astonishing views I read about using a 300 dob , I hoped I would be able to see more detail , at least with the 300.

I am very new to this and need to learn the sky's a lot more but initially I feel quite dissapointed. Am I expecting too much or are the reviews I read somewhat exaggerated ?

[blinky]

I think the simplest answer is Yes they are exagerated! To see detail in galaxies you need a very dark site and a lot of observing experience. I think really all you will see are 'hints' of the dust lanes etc. I always think the way to look at these things is - It's not what it's looks like, it's what is actually is! If you take my meaning.

Dont be too disheartened there are loads of things that your scopes will really bring the detail out in but I'm afraid I dont think you ever really see much more than you have done on Andromeda.

[asteria]

Hi there - what is your light pollution like? This can play havoc with galaxies. The Andromeda galaxy is huge and really needs a wide view to gather it all in. On a really good night, which is incredibly rare, from a suburban yard, I have seen the galaxy through my ST120 (fast focal length refractor) complete with mottling from dust lanes etc and the companion galaxies. My guess is that to reliably see this object in all its glory you would need an absolutely dark sky, with no moon.

It's important not to give up. Observational skills are aquired quite slowly. In my experience, observational astronomy is a 'slow' hobby and is best enjoyed at this pace! The other thing is that through the eyepiece one never sees the objects as they are in the Hubble pictures.

All the best.

Ed

[blinky]

It's true about the observational skills taking time. There are things like M33 that took me a week to see before and now I can fid it and see it within a couple of mins. The faint fuzzies just seem to jump out more as you get more time at the Eyepiece.

Whateer you do, dont give up!

[asteria]

Hi - I've yet to see M33 through the eyepiece. I think the LP in town kills it off. I am determined to get there though. I've seen it through binos out on the moor, but it was very faint, just a dim patch. It does take a lot of time to track some things down. Do you think an LP filter would help with M33? I've never really got on very well with filters. They all seem to degrade the view too much.

Ed

[MikeP]

Hi Vlebo,

Last night was my best view ever of M31 and for the first time M110 was visible to me too.

Despite the good conditions and using a 300P, M31 was only a bigger smudge than usual, but with persistence and averted vision it was possible to see both the core and some surrounding fainter stuff. I doubt I will ever see dust lanes but it won't stop me looking.

M110 was smaller than I expected, probably because it is so close to M31. It was unmistakable as a galaxy last night but I've probably missed it in the past because with the LP it would have looked like a bloated star. Again no real detail visible to me but fun to stand there looking at the two galaxies and wondering what observers there see of each other and our Milky Way.

M33 eluded me despite my best efforts. Will try from a different position next time since the trees became a nuisance. Like Ed, I'm determined to see it.

So, to your question - I agree with blinky, some reports do seem exaggerated and perhaps people sometimes see what they want to see. There is no doubt though that practice, good optics, a dark site, good seeing and young eyes will all have an influence. You've got the good optics (do check your collimation) have patience and just enjoy the time under the stars. It is not a competition to see who can see the most.

Mike

[vlebo]

Thanks Mike

I never expected Hubble type views but I was kinda hopeing for something a bit more detailed than I actualy got , you are probably right ,more practice , less expectation and maybe trying a darker location ( I live 12 miles from central London ) will help. I am in for the long haul so perserverence ,I guess , is the key.

I will mope around a bit today and have another go tonight.

Thanks all for your replies and wishing you all dark skies.

Vlebo

[Doc]

Living 12 miles from London is not going to help.

Light pollution really kills faint galaxies. Try a few nebulas they stand out alot better.

Even in my 16" dob M31 is a smudge abeit a big smudge on most nights, but last night I clearly saw dust lanes for the first time, they were dim but you have to observe and keep looking at it for a long time. Thenn suddenly you will get a fleeting window of great seeing and these lanes will appear.

Takes time you will get there.

[asteria]

I think the LP is going to be a real difficulty here. I live on the outskirts of a small city, and the LP is pretty bad to the east. I can make out M31 most nights, but it will be a few months before I can really get a good view when it will be at the zenith during the early-mid evening. Practising averted vision is really helpful for DSOs - using AV can really pull dim objects out of the background.

Ed

[Helen]

You are not alone! If you read the 'most dissapointment' thread that's running in the lounge you'll see that M31 through a scope features frequently!

But your scope will, with practice, show you amazing views of other things. So keep at it - when it all comes together its an amazing feeling!

Helen

[Casus belli]

Light pollution is not a galaxy hunter's friend. Using 8x50 bino's on board the supply boat I work on I can easily see dust lanes in M31 but thats in light pollution free skies.

My observing site is shielded from direct light which makes a huge differance. Ive also noticed that colder nights also make a noticable differance in the amount of galaxies I can see as well as in the amount of detail I can see. Altitude of the object also affects seeing.

[Tiny]

If you read my report of last night you may gain an impression of how rare really good seeing conditions happen. We live on a dark site but even a hint of stuff in the atmosphere and the seeing goes down with light from miles away polluting the sky.

Last night we were joking that the milky way was so luminous it must be light pollution reflecting off the stars to give an orange tint. Our M31 was not bad - nothing fancy like dust lanes but most of the other stuff (M57 etc.) up there was as clear as we ever remember.

Having said that we have been in this game for a long time and experience helps when seeing things.

On a different thread I told the story of one irate starter who had duplicated the astro-mag columnist's equipment and demanded to know how come he could not see what the columnist could when looking at suggested objects. The response was that it took experience - you might look and look and then one day you would see. The columnist also discussed the fact that some people saw things because they had seen pictures and maybe thought they could see detail they couldn't and how this could not be ruled out given the convolutions of the human brain.

His final line was to keep trying but not to worry.

[Astro_Baby]

Dark skies will make a hell of a difference. You know where I live last night I was fiddling about with the baby scope and - believe it or not I was finding it tough to find three bright stars for the alignment software. :shock: Thats how bad the light pollution is round here. :crybaby:

On a REALLY good night where I live I can just about make out Polaris but only just after sunset, I can see stuff like the summer triangle, Capella ( sometimes ) and a few others. On a really good night outside my flat I can see at most no more than 10 stars and on a bad night I am lucky if I can see two or three. Its insane it really is. .

Like most councils the one where I work is inundated with people demanding we keep the lights on and indeed install even more or else ( so they claim ) they will all be murdered in their beds and no street will be safe blah blah blah.

Anyway I digress - a dark sky location with a 12" scope will yield some pretty good views and I am sure when you get out under a dark sky you WILL be more impressed.

[Tiny]

But don't you feel safe from crime with all those lights on! :?

[vlebo]

Thanks everyone

I fully intend to perservere at this hobby for the next 35-40 years ( eyesight and faculties permitting ) and I am sure , as you have all said . time and experience will make me a better stargazer.

Thanks for your encouraging words.

I was getting ready to go out again but guess what ? Total cloud cover .

Vlebo

[asteria]

Good news Vlebo! I'm sure you will enjoy the hobby. You have some absolutely beautiful kit that will stand you in good stead for a long time. It's key to remember that great viewing is dependent on so many factors, but your scopes will be a constant, and when the conditions are right they will excel and the views you will see will astound you. And SGL is great for the cloudy nights!

Ed

[MikeP]

Good man Vlebo. I'd love to say the same but I'll be 99 if I am still alive in 40 years. :crybaby:

Mike

[vlebo]

:crybaby: Apologies

I got up this morning with a different perspective on what this hobby will reward me with. After reading many posts by beginners like myself I realise how fortunate I am to have the equipment I have and feel embarrased to the fact that I am moaning about not seeing what I expected through the ep.

I should be getting excited that I can see anything at all taking my location into account and after reading Astrobaby's comment earlier in this post, she has more perserverence than I think I would have taking her location , and after reading fellow newby's comments about what they could see through smaller scopes and how exciting it is I truly feel like a fool.

So no more posts from me saying what I cannot see but a bit more of what I can.

I apologise for sonding like a spoilt brat.

Vlebo

[Andrew*]

:crybaby: Apologies

Won't hear a word of it! It's totally understandable to feel like that. Particularly regarding the biggest, closest, brightest galaxy to our own. There's no other word for it - boring! While gobsmacking to think about, the very most I've seen is a slight darkening between M31 and M110 - a dust lane! That was on a night of excellent transparency for my site (Limiting magnitude is about 5, so above average!) and with a 16" scope. As has been said, galaxies suffer badly with any LP. The difference between a good night and an excellent night from my site is the difference between seeing M33 and not.

Part of being a successful observer is to learn to appreciate what you can see. Through two-three years of observing, I've learnt not to expect much from DSOs. It helps me look more carefully, then leap for joy when an extra thimblefull of detail emerges for the first time. That's what happened when I saw that dust lane!

Unfortunately these very facts make it difficult for beginners to appreciate visual astronomy and many give up too soon.

Andrew

[Albireo380]

Hi Vlebo,

I can understand your frustration, but yes, people are right, you have some nice kit there and Location does matter. I live in Glasgow and my 12" 300P can only make out the bright core of M31 from my back garden (fighting against the orange glow of street lights) - I see no signifiacant detail. But when I take it 25 miles north west into the countryside - WOW. From there I get great views - I do see the core of M31 and the spiral structure and the dust lanes.

However, what others have said is correct, you develop an "eye" for what you see. I know what to expect to see and so tend to see what I expect. Sometimes (if seeing conditions are good) I see a little more, often I see less. But when the conditions are right, it is worth all the wait and frustration.

Best of luck - your 'scopes will give you lots of fun.

Tom

[Albireo380]

Oh yeah, one other thing - don't apologise for getting frustrated. We have all been there - Astronomy is a "character building" interest - and a good moan reduces blood pressure . So keep posting on SGL and tell us of your frustrations - plenty of people here who will try to help (or at least be sympathetic).

Cheers

Tom

[asteria]

Hi Vlebo - you've nothing to be embarrassed about at all. You'll get loads of support and encouragement through SGL. I've never seen a harsh word spoken here. Astronomy is very steep learning curve, but my skills have come on quickly through being involved in the forum. It's important to keep asking questions and practising your skills. I still ask really basic questions, but the answers I get are always thoughtful and polite. One of the key things is learning how to make your equipment really work for you - different telescope types do different things well. I'm still working this out now, after quite a few years at the eyepiece! And Saturn will be viewable soon, and if you've never seen this planet it will really amaze you.

Ed

[Casus belli]

Taken from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Astronomer (N) One who constantly complains.

Complaints include (but are not limited to) Clouds, rain, owls, cats, SWMBO, light pollution, wrong equipment, malfunctioning equipment, equipment possesed by Satan, equipment unable to withstand being dropped, thrown, or immersed in water, wind, sleet, snow, hail, satelites, children, the moon, the sun, cold, heat, the laws of physics, dew, fog and chicken soup.

[FLO]

A 12" Dobsonian with a low-power wide-field eyepiece (Andromeda is HUGE) will show a fantastic view of the Andromeda galaxy with dust lanes and the two satellite galaxies. But it does require a dark sky. Under Greg's dark sky we can see dust lanes using only a 5" aperture but from my back garden in Exeter I can just about see them using a 10" Dobsonian, though having already seen them at Greg's probably helps.